Would war against ISIS be just?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Bert Perry wrote:

James K wrote:

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

Not to mention the supposed error in God’s decision to return one day to wage the final war.

I just preached on the invasion of Canaan by Joshua and Israel as a picture of the final war that Jesus will wage against his enemies at the end.

The judge of the universe always does what is right. His person is just. He waged war against his enemies by going before Israel.

Someone show me one place in the NT where God says he will go before us in battle to carry out war? I was under the impression we had different marching orders.

Someone posted above about putting a .50 caliber through the head of ISIS operatives. Yeah sure, that is one way of dealing with enemies. I will need a black sharpie for that verse about our weapons of warfare though.

[Larry]

Quote:

And here is your error

Where’s the error?

You said categorically, “Just war is a myth.” You did not present any qualifications to it. Here’s the simple case against your statement.

• All war is unjust (the denial of just war; the converse construction of “Just war is a myth”).
• God commanded Israel to go to war against Canaan.
• Therefore God commanded unjust war.

If that is true that just war is a myth, then Israelite wars against Canaanites were unjust, and since they were commanded by God, God commanded something unjust. I think there are some implications there for the doctrine of God, and you seem to agree in your reply to me. So I don’t think I made a logical fallacy or an absurdity, and you don’t seem to think so either since you seem to agree with me. The logic is sound. You would have to dispute one of the premises.

In your original statement, youu said, “We have allowed basic definitions of just and good to be manipulated into warmongering and madness.” This is the very thing that the just war theory, in principle, prevents. The just war theory is not ironclad if for no other reason it is always used (or abused) by sinful men. And your statement appeals to that, namely, that “just war” claims are not truly just; they are are warmongering and madness at times. Nonetheless, the state that “just war is a myth” is inaccurate. The debate is, or at least should be, about the particulars of just war, and how they apply to a given situation.

Larry, I don’t bow to Augustine’s reason for war. The Romans were themselves quite mad. Why is the NT silent on taking military action against them? In fact, it is explicit that we are not to rebel against the authorities AND that we are actually to live peaceably if it all possible.

James 4:1-4

1What is the source of the wars and the fights among you? Don’t they come from the cravings that are at war within you?2You desire and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. You do not have because you do not ask.3You ask and don’t receive because you ask wrongly, so that you may spend it on your desires for pleasure.4Adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? So whoever wants to be the world’s friend becomes God’s enemy.

I already posted James 1:20 as well.

The just war theory does not operate from the position that it is something God commands. In Deut and Josh, Israel is explicitly commanded to do something. So no, God did not declare an unjust war. God was exercising capital punishment against those who defiled the land. That has NOTHING to do with any war since Christ’s coming. God does not command any nation to go against another nation anymore. God is not using a nation to exact capital punishment for defiling the land. What God commanded in the OT is NOT the just war theory.

Just war is a myth. War is an evil, maybe a necessary evil to prevent a greater atrocity, but it is never just.

James, if God declares the war, it is just. Therefore the wars in Canaan and elsewhere WERE just wars, and therefore there IS such a thing as a just war.

Now we can quibble about whether such and such war is just, and that’s fine, but outside of the prophetic era, we cannot expect a direct word from God saying “OK, fight the Nazis” and such, and on the same page, are we to seriously argue that our war against Hitler was not just?

I can also acknowledge that there are injustices in every war, but really, it’s also significant to remember that Augustine’s contribution in just war theory was not to give carte blanche to governments seeking to wage war. On the contrary, it imposed a set of very difficult obstacles to kings who wanted to wage war—and thus it is not surprising that we find that most European wars do NOT fit Augustine’s criteria.

[James K]

Bert Perry wrote:

James K wrote:

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

Bert, there is more to the story than what you put. God punished the agent nations for coming against Israel, when he commanded they come against Israel.

The government has the authority of the sword. Governments are not absolved from the guilt of murder and warmongering simply because they have the right of the sword. A parent is not absolved from child abuse simply because he has the God given right to discipline. Many, many government leaders will be held to account for murder and warmongering.

This is simply wrong. You are accusing God of sin with this line of reasoning.

Assertion: There is no just war

Assertion: God ordered gentile nations to go to war against Israel

Assertion: God punished gentiles for making war against Israel which is sin

Unavoidable result: God sinned in sending the gentiles to make war against Israel

This is schizophrenic. No nation that God sent against Israel was punished for obeying God and going against Israel. They were not punished for the wickedness of war but for their wickedness in war, their unnecessary and unacceptable brutality toward Israel that went far beyond what God had commanded. They had abused the right and authority God had given them to justly exercise war and were themselves justly punished for their sin.

I think we need to define terms. James, can you please define what you mean by “just”, first of all, and “just war,” second? Hopefully without sighing, please?

[Bert Perry]

James, if God declares the war, it is just. Therefore the wars in Canaan and elsewhere WERE just wars, and therefore there IS such a thing as a just war.

Now we can quibble about whether such and such war is just, and that’s fine, but outside of the prophetic era, we cannot expect a direct word from God saying “OK, fight the Nazis” and such, and on the same page, are we to seriously argue that our war against Hitler was not just?

I can also acknowledge that there are injustices in every war, but really, it’s also significant to remember that Augustine’s contribution in just war theory was not to give carte blanche to governments seeking to wage war. On the contrary, it imposed a set of very difficult obstacles to kings who wanted to wage war—and thus it is not surprising that we find that most European wars do NOT fit Augustine’s criteria.

God’s commands for war (capital punishment) by Israel bear no relation to what goes on since Christ’s coming. The just war theory does not attempt to duplicate the OT pattern of war. I have drawn the distinction between the OT wars and the just war concept. That some of you keep trying to blend them misses the point then, and this is unhelpful for all.

WW2 was not a just war by any standard. Remove a dictator who killed millions of people? Sure, we will ally with one who killed 3 times the amount to stop that fiend. Yeah…

[Chip Van Emmerik]

James K wrote:

Bert Perry wrote:

James K wrote:

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

Bert, there is more to the story than what you put. God punished the agent nations for coming against Israel, when he commanded they come against Israel.

The government has the authority of the sword. Governments are not absolved from the guilt of murder and warmongering simply because they have the right of the sword. A parent is not absolved from child abuse simply because he has the God given right to discipline. Many, many government leaders will be held to account for murder and warmongering.

JamesK,

This is simply wrong. You are accusing God of sin with this line of reasoning.

Assertion: There is no just war

Assertion: God ordered gentile nations to go to war against Israel

Assertion: God punished gentiles for making war against Israel which is sin

Unavoidable result: God sinned in sending the gentiles to make war against Israel

This is schizophrenic. No nation that God sent against Israel was punished for obeying God and going against Israel. They were not punished for the wickedness of war but for their wickedness in war, their unnecessary and unacceptable brutality toward Israel that went far beyond what God had commanded. They had abused the right and authority God had given them to justly exercise war and were themselves justly punished for their sin.

Chip, the original article was about just war theory being used against ISIS. The just war theory is not based on the OT pattern of war.

So is the OT now to be considered an example of just war, JamesK?

— If so, then your original post was faulty as everyone else has said, and you are simply being obstinate to refuse admitting you spoke hastily or incorrectly.

— If not, then my previous description of your assertions remain accurate.

Larry, I don’t bow to Augustine’s reason for war.

Good. That’s not really at issue here. One can disagree with Augustine’s justification for just war (no pun intended) while recognizing that the concept of a just war is completely separate from his particular delineation. The ideas existed before him and were built on, modified, debated after him. However, not being persuaded by one particular view of something does not mean that something doesn’t exist or isn’t legitimate. The view you disagree with may be wrong, or you may be wrong. Or both. But simply denying the existence of something doesn’t mean that something doesn’t exist.

The Romans were themselves quite mad. Why is the NT silent on taking military action against them?

Because the NT was written to the church, and the church has no authority to wage war. Likewise, James 1:20 and 4:1-4 are talking to the church about problems within the church. They are not discussing the state and war.

Just war is a myth. War is an evil, maybe a necessary evil to prevent a greater atrocity, but it is never just.

Interestingly, your denial of just war is accompanied by an acknowledgement of one of the guidelines for just war. In other words, you say that just war may be necessary but deny that it is just. Preventing a greater atrocity is one of the reasons for just war, and it raises the issue of whether preemption is unjust.

It seems to me you are conflating Augustine’s particular delineation of Just War Theory with the concept of a just war. Augustine wasn’t alone; others both before and after him have interacted on these matters and ideas. It is not clear how you are using “just.” You say war is never just, but what does that mean? Is it never “just” for a nation to defend its borders against aggressors? Are you saying it is never just to wage war for the protection of human beings? Again, the particulars of these situations could certainly be discussed and debated, but it seems hard to deny that it is just to defend the defenseless from illegitimate attacks.

You are right that war is often madness and warmongering, but it need not be so necessarily. It may be only in theory that just war exists, but the idea is legitimate.

Chip, again, the article was about using the just war approach to ISIS. I reject that concept because it isn’t actually just. Further, the just war theory is not a copy paste of the OT. It was Larry who brought the Canaan campaign into the discussion.

I have been consistently arguing from the NT that just war is a myth.

If a person breaks into my home, and I shoot him dead, it was a necessary act to protect my family. It was not a just killing.

Wars may be needed to prevent greater atrocities, but it doesn’t make them just.

Larry,

1. The just war theory exists, but the idea that we can conduct a just war is a myth.

2. The church has no authority to wage war. I am glad you agree. Not only does the church not wage war, we are to love our enemies. These aren’t only problems within the church. They are true statements for the state as well. The christian then should not be an advocate of wars as though wars can be just or righteous.

3. I never denied self defense or the presence of acting as a shield against other evils. That isn’t “just” though.

[James K]

If a person breaks into my home, and I shoot him dead, it was a necessary act to protect my family. It was not a just killing.

JamesK, please define the word “just” for us.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

James K wrote:

If a person breaks into my home, and I shoot him dead, it was a necessary act to protect my family. It was not a just killing.

So…. it was an unjust killing? Earlier, you said you believe in the biblical concept of self-defense. Which is it? God says we can do something that He declares unjust or self defense killings are just? I will ask what others have asked:

JamesK, please define the word “just” for us.

Is it required of me to shoot a person who breaks into my home? Is there a biblical mandate? Before anyone says protecting one’s family, think through how far you are willing to go to do that and if that is the driving force for what we as Christians are to do.

I think back to the story Jesus told about the unjust servant in Luke 17. The servant was not just simply for having done his job. In fact, Jesus said he was good for nothing. Righteousness or justness isn’t breaking even. This is why the righteousness of God imputed to the believer isn’t merely a return to same state Adam was in. We actually possess rightness.

For this reason, just war is a myth.

It isn’t really about Augustine. It’s about whether it’s ever right to go to war. “Just” simply means right.

Consequently it isn’t possible to maintain that “just war is a myth” and also maintain that “it is sometimes right to go to war.”

In any case, Augustine was neither the first nor the last to try to lay down some moral boundaries for when war is the right thing to do vs. when it is not.

Although St. Augustine provided comments on the morality of war from the Christian perspective (railing against the love of violence that war can engender) as did several Arabic commentators in the intellectual flourishing from the 9th to 12th centuries, but the most systematic exposition in the Western tradition and one that still attracts attention was outlined by Saint Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century. In theSumma Theologicae, Aquinas presents the general outline of what becomes the traditional just war theory as discussed in modern universities. He discusses not only the justification of war but also the kinds of activity that are permissible (for a Christian) in war (see below). Aquinas’s thoughts become the model for later Scholastics and Jurists …

Alexander Moseley at IEP