Would war against ISIS be just?

James, what about “better than the alternative” instead of “just”?

That said, it’s worth noting that Romans 13 notes that the “king” or human government does act in God’s place to avenge the deeds of wicked men, which would imply that in certain cases, war is indeed just.

[James K]

Darrell Post wrote:

When a citizen goes on a rampage, like the D.C. sniper several years ago now, society rightly ‘goes to war’ against that citizen to stop that citizen from killing more people. It would be absurd to suggest that because all war is evil, we must therefore avoid all war, and so we just let the D.C. sniper continue until he runs out of funds to buy ammo or dies of old age. There are all sorts of sizes and scales to wars, and some, if not many are no doubt are wrongly based, or partially wrongly based. But God did ordain human government as a check on sin, and part of this is to bring justice to the lawless.

The NT makes provision for both self defense and a government protecting the innocent while punishing the guilty.

Warmongering is a sin specifically named in the NT.

[James K] Just war is a myth.

“The NT makes provision for both self defense and a government protecting the innocent while punishing the guilty.”

And this is very often labeled with the term “war.”

Sigh. Apparently rejecting augustinian nonsense is now on par with questioning the biblical revelation of God. I need a nap.

Perhaps you just need to address the issue you created with your statement. If you think “Just war is a myth,” then explain how OT wars commanded by God do not compromise God. Or if you think that the OT wars were just wars, then don’t make a categorical statement that denies it. But whichever course you choose, don’t blame others for your own failure to be clear in your communication.

It appears that you are not against the concept of just war. So it appears that your statement was an incorrect representation of your views.

[Darrell Post]

“The NT makes provision for both self defense and a government protecting the innocent while punishing the guilty.”

And this is very often labeled with the term “war.”

Darrell, I recognize that wars can be used to prevent a greater atrocity. That doesn’t make it just though.

[Bert Perry]

James, what about “better than the alternative” instead of “just”?

That said, it’s worth noting that Romans 13 notes that the “king” or human government does act in God’s place to avenge the deeds of wicked men, which would imply that in certain cases, war is indeed just.

Rom 13 does not state that the king or government acts justly. Possession of the sword does not make just one’s actions with it.

The focus here is on the concept of just, not the concept of war. War is hell. War is horrible. War does not work out the righteousness (justness) of God.

[Larry]

Sigh. Apparently rejecting augustinian nonsense is now on par with questioning the biblical revelation of God. I need a nap.

Perhaps you just need to address the issue you created with your statement. If you think “Just war is a myth,” then explain how OT wars commanded by God do not compromise God. Or if you think that the OT wars were just wars, then don’t make a categorical statement that denies it. But whichever course you choose, don’t blame others for your own failure to be clear in your communication.

It appears that you are not against the concept of just war. So it appears that your statement was an incorrect representation of your views.

Of course Larry, you jump to absurdity and it was my fault for not entertaining every possible interpretation you could come up with.

Doing what you are told to do does not make you just.

Driving the speed limit doesn’t make you a just driver. It means you aren’t guilty.

James, I didn’t jump to absurdity and I didn’t come up with that interpretation. You may not be aware, but many people object to the OT (and indeed Christianity itself) on the basis of the Canaanite genocide being an unjust war. I disagree with that, and you probably do to. And that’s why I brought it up. You made a categorical statement that denies the justice of God as presented in the OT. I don’t think you intended that. Perhaps you simply didn’t think through it as you made your statement. But It seems that one either has to agree with at least the concept of just war or say that God is unjust. I don’t see a third option. Perhaps you know of one. In the end, one can argue that there has never been a just war in modern history (something that might be true), but a categorical case that “just war is a myth” is problematic.

James, if human government acts as God’s agent, would we not assume that some of the times they bear the sword in war, it must be just? If we do not concede this, we are not merely impugning national governments, but our Lord!

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

[Larry]

James, I didn’t jump to absurdity and I didn’t come up with that interpretation. You may not be aware, but many people object to the OT (and indeed Christianity itself) on the basis of the Canaanite genocide being an unjust war. I disagree with that, and you probably do to. And that’s why I brought it up. You made a categorical statement that denies the justice of God as presented in the OT. I don’t think you intended that. Perhaps you simply didn’t think through it as you made your statement. But It seems that one either has to agree with at least the concept of just war or say that God is unjust. I don’t see a third option. Perhaps you know of one. In the end, one can argue that there has never been a just war in modern history (something that might be true), but a categorical case that “just war is a myth” is problematic.

Okay Larry, I will play along. The rejection of the just war theory does in fact have implications for our doctrine of God. Moving right along…

I am very much aware of how people spin the OT record into all kinds of mad positions.

And here is your error

You made a categorical statement that denies the justice of God as presented in the OT. I don’t think you intended that. Perhaps you simply didn’t think through it as you made your statement.

I did no such thing. The rejection of the just war theory, advanced by augustine, is not the same as denying the justice of God in the OT. Sigh. I don’t think you intended on making such a logical fallacy into absurdity. Perhaps you simply didn’t think through it as you made your statement.

[James K]

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

[Bert Perry]

James K wrote:

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

And here is your error

You said categorically, “Just war is a myth.” You did not present any qualifications to it. Here’s the simple case against your statement.

• All war is unjust (the denial of just war; the converse construction of “Just war is a myth”).
• God commanded Israel to go to war against Canaan.
• Therefore God commanded unjust war.

If that is true that just war is a myth, then Israelite wars against Canaanites were unjust, and since they were commanded by God, God commanded something unjust. I think there are some implications there for the doctrine of God, and you seem to agree in your reply to me. So I don’t think I made a logical fallacy or an absurdity, and you don’t seem to think so either since you seem to agree with me. The logic is sound. You would have to dispute one of the premises.

In your original statement, youu said, “We have allowed basic definitions of just and good to be manipulated into warmongering and madness.” This is the very thing that the just war theory, in principle, prevents. The just war theory is not ironclad if for no other reason it is always used (or abused) by sinful men. And your statement appeals to that, namely, that “just war” claims are not truly just; they are are warmongering and madness at times. Nonetheless, the state that “just war is a myth” is inaccurate. The debate is, or at least should be, about the particulars of just war, and how they apply to a given situation.

[Bert Perry]

James K wrote:

Bert, God used the Assyrians in the OT to punish Israel. They were his “agent” as you put it. However, God also punished them for their acts against Israel. Did God punish them for being just?

As I read the prophets, Assyria and Babylon were not punished for invading Israel, but for idolatry and barbarous cruelty forbidden as conduct of war in the Torah.

Really, if we are to claim that there is no such thing as just war, we have to assume God was wrong to tell Israel to destroy the Amalekites, Ai, Jericho, and the rest of the Canaanites, Hivites, Amorites, and such in the conquest of Israel. Not buying it, James. National governments can be God’s agents to wage a just war—the question is not whether there is such a thing as just war, but whether the war as it is is conducted in a just way.

Bert, there is more to the story than what you put. God punished the agent nations for coming against Israel, when he commanded they come against Israel.

The government has the authority of the sword. Governments are not absolved from the guilt of murder and warmongering simply because they have the right of the sword. A parent is not absolved from child abuse simply because he has the God given right to discipline. Many, many government leaders will be held to account for murder and warmongering.