7 signs we may be worshipping our family

[Mark_Smith]

When I talk about people missing Sunday pm/Wed services I don’t mean, for example, a family that came 3 weeks out of 4, but took a family night on the other week. What I observe is people NEVER coming to ANY pm service. When you ask them why, they say the kids are heavily involved in activities at school, husband works long hours or has long commute, wife works as well, so the only family time they have is Sunday pm and Wed pm…well, might I suggest that is called worldliness when you are so involved in other things that you don’t have time for fellowship and worship in church. I practically guarantee these people are not doing family devotions/prayer, small group activities etc as a substitute either.

I appreciate that some of you have been guilt tripped in the past about being at the church whenever the doors are open. I am talking about the vast majority of self- described Christians who are content with punching the Sunday am ticket, then moving on and never doing anything else…and you know there are a lot of people like that out there.

Then the disciples of John came to Him, asking, “Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?”

Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2”Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Only those who attempt to earn favor with God contrast themselves with those who don’t seem to measure up to their personal standard. I’m not calling you a Pharisee. I’m pointing you to look at the Scriptures and see how closely your questions/assumptions/accusations align with those of those Jesus opposed.

[Mark_Smith]

I appreciate that some of you have been guilt tripped in the past about being at the church whenever the doors are open. I am talking about the vast majority of self- described Christians who are content with punching the Sunday am ticket, then moving on and never doing anything else…and you know there are a lot of people like that out there.

I am guilty of punching the Sunday am ticket since last month. After 3 years of going to two different church plants, one in the morning, the other late afternoon, I am now going to church in the morning only and loving it. After a 40+ hour workweek (not counting Philly rush hour) working with addicts and ex-cons I’m ready for a Sunday afternoon to relax and/or have guests over for dinner. Sometimes my wife and I will ride our bikes over to get Philly water ice (if you have to ask….).

Our Sunday morning service is rich in the Word and worship. We pray, we sing, we recite a creed, we preach, we have the Lord’s Supper every week, we give, we sing some more, we close with a benediction. We don’t have a choir or special music (we do have a worship team of 4-8 people), we don’t promote the offering, or fill up the time with fluff. It is more satisfying than the years of spent going to (or leading) Sunday evening services that were usually not well attended, not well planned, and many people were too worn out to get much out of it or were there as duty.

Our church plant in North Philly has its own space and meets more often during the week. Our church plant in West Philly pays $1500 a month for morning only space. Our South Philly church plant meets in a house. In West Philly, where I live and am now mainly involved, we set up for our 10:00 service at 8:30. We don’t have Sunday School and we don’t plan to. All that to say that it is easy to use the wrong standard, or our standard, to judge what people should be doing on Sunday, Wednesday, etc.

Almost every other Sunday my wife and I invite about 6 people, members or guests, to dinner at our house. We have small group Bible studies in our house during the week and are involved in community events (last week’s prayer vigil at a murder site with other police clergy, coming up August 5 National Night Out Against Crime). If the Lord opens another church planting opportunity then we might be back to morning and evening.

We’re starting an AWANA Club in the Fall. That means a whole bunch of volunteers will have to give up another night with their families to do this club. Our church is using this as a frankly evangelistic effort; we want to get the Gospel to kids and reach their families. I’m considering proposing that we do AWANA in lieu of the Sunday Afternoon service. If the congregation wants to keep Sunday Afternoon services, then I’ll keep it. If they’re warm to the idea of substituting AWANA, we may do it. I haven’t decided whether or not to propose it or not. But, the family (especially mine) often suffers at the expense of church activities. It may be worth it to give this a shot. I haven’t made up my mind yet.

The guy who never does anything at church, etc is equal to Jesus’ disciples?

I give up.

[Mark_Smith]

The guy who never does anything at church, etc is equal to Jesus’ disciples?

I give up.

“At Church” - This phrase belies the mistaken assumptions of so many well meaning, but misguided, Christ followers.

When you learn to distinguish between what the church is, and isn’t, you’ll understand my point.

Believe it or not, I fully get what you are saying…

dmicah, I am certainly not in the camp of the traditional Sunday School, morning worship, evening service, Wednesday prayer meeting mandatory attendance (on top of other church activities), but the early Christians gathered together every day. I fully understand that people, not a building, are the church, and yet the church gathers together for the apostles’ doctrine, fellowship, the breaking of bread, and prayers. Not really sure what you’re arguing for here.

Mark_Smith wrote:

I appreciate that some of you have been guilt tripped in the past about being at the church whenever the doors are open. I am talking about the vast majority of self- described Christians who are content with punching the Sunday am ticket, then moving on and never doing anything else…and you know there are a lot of people like that out there.

And even if there are - and I won’t quibble with you on that - complaining about them online does what exactly?

Seriously, Mark. There’s a reason why Jesus and David refer to us (corporately) as sheep. Sheep are not known for high levels of energy, hard work, or being easy to take care of. Maybe the problem as pastors and deacons and leaders is that we’re confusing the “sheep” for some kind of trained attack dogs.

Spending your time and energy on people who refuse to get involved in church is a surefire way to burn yourself out or grow bitter at the God who gave you that flock, if you don’t get bitter at the sheep themselves. None of those things are good.

When I came to Christ, one of the most powerful things that my spiritual grandfather did (he’d discipled the guys who led me to Christ) was shake my hand and say “welcome to the family.” And as such, it strikes me that the church really ought to function as,well, family. We call each other brother or sister, whichever is appropriate—and I remember with fondness my experience in a mostly Asian church in the LA area where young people would call the adults “auntie”, “uncle”, or (if the age difference was 30 years or more) “grandfather” or “grandmother”. Are we not to treat the older women as mothers, younger as sisters, older men as fathers, etc..? (and yes, occasionally one of us would be chagrined to call someone “grandfather” who was just prematurely gray….thankfully people were gracious!)

Now let’s take a look at the “7 signs” and interpret that with regard to the idea that our church is, in a sense, our family. Are our family members welcome for hospitality? Sure they are. Ought we not make time for family, serve our family……and as such it strikes me that if we approach both family and church with the preconception that, at its heart, what we are is a family, then we are going to do both family and church better.

And conversely, the more we use a “corporate” model (referring to modern corporate business structures, not our “corporate” coming together as a “corpus” or “body” of Christ) in either family or church life, the more we will fail in the areas the writer notes. Let’s face facts; how many families fail to have time or a good word for each others, no?

To make a long story short, I think the writer identifies some very real problems, but I think he draws the dichotomy incorrectly—it is not a balance between church and family, but rather that both church and biological/legal family ought to occupy a place as family, with its privileges, requirements, and boundaries as drawn really by God.

One of my biggest personal lesson from my years of being in churches where being there every time the doors were open was the expectation is that I had little personal contact with other believers. (In one church such contact was even discouraged.) By contact I mean getting together for prayer, Bible study, discipleship, and/or encouragement. Most church meetings involved being an audience that sang and listened to a sermon or being patrons at a restaurant where we ate. The younger generation seems to have grasped the idea of the church as a community who gathers for necessary corporate worship AND cultivates spiritual relationships with each other outside of the corporate setting.

This point was of interest:

We Seldom Serve in the Church: If our family is so focused on just being a family that we can’t attend mid-week bible studies or are so intent on being together Sunday morning that the parents can’t teach Sunday School or assist in the nursery, there is a problem. As a Christian family we are to see ourselves as part of the community. Not separate from it. Not more important than it. But essential to it.

This reminded me of the time the pastor gave an invitation for all men who wanted to serve in the church to come forward. When every man in the place responded, the pastor thought, “What am I going to do with 60 ushers?”

Serving in the church is much more than attending prayer meeting, teaching Sunday school, or working in the nursery. Serving in the Body of Christ involves discipleship, evangelism, teaching your children, and building meaningful spiritual and personal relationships with other members of the Body.

While at some point in history the church may have met everyday, it’s normal practice according to Paul was once on the first day of the week. In the early centuries this was either before or after work. The practice of Sunday School, PM, and mid-week services are relatively new.

To every pastor* or staff member who has been fired … the church doesn’t feel so familyish

* I’m not one of them but I had a deacon was driven to see me fired.

[Jim]

To every pastor* or staff member who has been fired … the church doesn’t feel so familyish

* I’m not one of them but I had a deacon was driven to see me fired.

An article about the un-Biblical nature of the “right boot of fellowship”, or a link to previously published articles about the same, might be very timely. Point well taken.

This is the funniest thing I’ve heard all week. One of us whose posteriors have been on this boot need to start a thread on the subject.

[Ron Bean] Serving in the church is much more than attending prayer meeting, teaching Sunday school, or working in the nursery. Serving in the Body of Christ involves discipleship, evangelism, teaching your children, and building meaningful spiritual and personal relationships with other members of the Body.

While at some point in history the church may have met everyday, it’s normal practice according to Paul was once on the first day of the week. In the early centuries this was either before or after work. The practice of Sunday School, PM, and mid-week services are relatively new.

I agree. It is confusing and damaging when a church implies that true ministry only happens through church organized activities. If you want to visit in your community, do it on Thursday night after you’ve checked in with the visitation director, who will send you clear across town. If you want to counsel folks in trouble, wait until someone in church gives you permission and appoints who you will minister to and when. If you want to evangelize, invite people to church instead of into your home.

Is there something wrong with equipping the saints and providing support so they can use their gifts as they believe best? Why do we need a church cruise director to organize everything for us? Unless, of course, the church wants to take credit for what is happening through their members? (I typed that with my cynical hand)
I don’t believe that we should ever view the family and church as being in competition with each other. Strong families serve as a foundation for a strong church, especially since church leadership isn’t even qualified to serve unless their family is in order. Families need to support the church, but church needs to support families as well.