Interview with Dr. Jay Adams
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Last week I had the opportunity to talk with Dr. Jay Adams and Rev. Donn Arms on the telephone about a range of topics. These included the history and present state of biblical counseling, underlying philosophical and theological principles (such as the unity of truth and sanctification), and a mix of methodological and practical questions (including counseling unbelievers and the role of counseling ministries outside of church oversight).
Part one (30 mins) focuses mainly on the biblical counseling movement and foundational ideas.
Part two (19 mins) delves mostly into methodological and practical matters.
A few random observations
- If conducting interviews is anything like preaching, I’ll have to do this about 100 more times before I get half good at it! (Have I lowered your expectations sufficiently?)
- Dr. Adams has been involved in this area of ministry (as well as many others) for longer than I’ve been alive. So it’s with reluctance that I say the unity of truth problem doesn’t seem to be adequately answered in the interview. Perhaps [amazon 1889032409] explains better what I was unable to grasp during our talk.
- I believe Dr. Adams’ approach to counseling has strengths that continue to commend it strongly even though there are many (“non-integrationist”) biblical counselors today with slightly different approaches who are doing excellent work. These strengths include the following:
- A crystal clear understanding of sanctification that leaves believers with no doubt about what they are responsible to do about sin problems in general (provided they are willing to understand what to do)
- A high view of Scripture and it’s power to speak to the vast majority of problems we tend to think of as counseling issues today
- A skepticism toward Freudian and post-Freudian (but equally godless) approaches to human nature and problems
- A firm conviction that sin problems are best handled in a local church context
- A passionate belief that regeneration (and the blessings that go with it, such as the indwelling Holy Spirit) form the only basis for deep and abiding solutions to sin problems
- 395 views
Thanks Laura, for your comments. Very good. It reflects the understanding that I have come to (and tried inadequately to express). I think it reflects the complexity that exists in this topic. I think both the Bible and psychiatry has been greatly disserviced by the simplistic approach that is too often taken on both sides.
I am not that familiar with Adams. Twenty years ago I read the Christian Counselor’s Manual, and more recently his books on Divorce and Remarriage, church discipline, and how to help people change. I have some others I refer to from time to time, but not in depth.
I think we too often underestimate the power and the extent of sin in our lives. Hopefully, we will engage in a careful reflection in this.
I am not that familiar with Adams. Twenty years ago I read the Christian Counselor’s Manual, and more recently his books on Divorce and Remarriage, church discipline, and how to help people change. I have some others I refer to from time to time, but not in depth.
I think we too often underestimate the power and the extent of sin in our lives. Hopefully, we will engage in a careful reflection in this.
I do not appear to have made any statements that indicated we should “assume medication is always the answer.” I stated that medication was needed for “mental illness.” Your son was misdiagnosed by a pediatrician. But actually it appears he may not have been. He was referred to a psychiatrist for diagnosis but was not taken to one. Another specialist gave a diagnosis which was evidently correct. At any rate, the incidence is not pertinent to the subject of mental illness or medication. No one had yet given a diagnosis or prescribed medication. My posts never indicate we assume medication. I do state that the only remedy for genuine mental illness is medication. But correct diagnosis is necessary.
Bob,
You missed my point. Sorry that I was not clear enough. In your posts about this issue (both now and on the old SI) you do not seem to understand ANY problems with psychiatry. After speaking with a few professionals, what happened with my son is standard operating procedure. A child appears to have a tick the pediatrician sends him or her to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist writes a prescription with no other testing done. It may not be that way in all areas of the country but that is the way it is in my area. Other regions that I consulted with do the same thing. So my example is not isolated. You just didn’t have the knowledge on this issue. I could give other examples from my community where similar things have happened. Never once have you asserted that rigorous questioning should be done, so I took your view as getting any opinions outside of psychiatry as dangerous. If that is your position, it will harm people physically and spiritually. So my point does apply to this issue.
I agreed that with brain diseases (mental illness) that psychiatry and pharmacology are necessary. But what the discipline does that shoots themselves in the foot is to treat things as such when they may or may not be. There needs to be cross consultation with other disciplines. In my region, there rarely is and the result is people being on medication that they do not need to be on and therefore not dealing with the real issues.
Let me state again that I am not totally on board with NANC. But your views show a lot of ignorance about NANC. For instance, Dr. Hendrickson is a NANC counselor and has spoken at NANC conferences. Your views of NANC are as out of date as you claim Jay Adams to be. Larry is right that you are being simplistic. You are swinging the pendulum way to far to the psychiatry side without thoroughly checking things out for others. Your decisions have been great for your family (and I am truly glad). Many people need psychiatric care and should be helped by the church no matter what. There are also many out there who have been harmed (or in the case of my son would have been) by psychiatric care. All I am saying is do the research before you allow yourself or a loved one on medication.
I hope I have not come across as harsh that is not my intent. I am just trying to get you to think through. Based on your postings, you have not.
Bob,
You missed my point. Sorry that I was not clear enough. In your posts about this issue (both now and on the old SI) you do not seem to understand ANY problems with psychiatry. After speaking with a few professionals, what happened with my son is standard operating procedure. A child appears to have a tick the pediatrician sends him or her to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist writes a prescription with no other testing done. It may not be that way in all areas of the country but that is the way it is in my area. Other regions that I consulted with do the same thing. So my example is not isolated. You just didn’t have the knowledge on this issue. I could give other examples from my community where similar things have happened. Never once have you asserted that rigorous questioning should be done, so I took your view as getting any opinions outside of psychiatry as dangerous. If that is your position, it will harm people physically and spiritually. So my point does apply to this issue.
I agreed that with brain diseases (mental illness) that psychiatry and pharmacology are necessary. But what the discipline does that shoots themselves in the foot is to treat things as such when they may or may not be. There needs to be cross consultation with other disciplines. In my region, there rarely is and the result is people being on medication that they do not need to be on and therefore not dealing with the real issues.
Let me state again that I am not totally on board with NANC. But your views show a lot of ignorance about NANC. For instance, Dr. Hendrickson is a NANC counselor and has spoken at NANC conferences. Your views of NANC are as out of date as you claim Jay Adams to be. Larry is right that you are being simplistic. You are swinging the pendulum way to far to the psychiatry side without thoroughly checking things out for others. Your decisions have been great for your family (and I am truly glad). Many people need psychiatric care and should be helped by the church no matter what. There are also many out there who have been harmed (or in the case of my son would have been) by psychiatric care. All I am saying is do the research before you allow yourself or a loved one on medication.
I hope I have not come across as harsh that is not my intent. I am just trying to get you to think through. Based on your postings, you have not.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
There appears to be a defence of Nouthetic counseling that is constantly being asserted that claims they have changed their views regarding Psychiatry and mental illness. Some posters on here are making that claim. Let me point out the following:
1. The interview you just listened to here on Sharper Iron specifically asserted the same criticisms of mental illness, psychiatry, and psychology. Please listen again if you need to. The criticisms involved three areas; the agenda of psychiatry, the diagnosis procedures of psychiatry, and the chicken and the egg concept which is that mental illness could be self inflicted. The criticisms are essentially the same that J. Adams expressed in 1970 and in keeping with my quote from “The big Umbrella” first published in 19972 but reprinted recently without changes.
2. The book “Introduction to Biblical Counseling,” John MacArthur editor, Word Publishing, 1994 with chapters by several others including several by Nouthetic counselor and professor Wayne Mack, states the following:
“The biblical counselor is accused of denying reality. Yet who is to say this is reality? Even though the majority of people in our society accept the theory of mental illness as a fact, that still does not make it a fact. Such reasoning is not scientific but philosophical. This is the same logic that says believers deny the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Many people believe they exist, so does that make them real? Since mental illness is a theory and not a fact, biblical counselors do not deny the existence of something that has been proven to exist by empirical data gained in the laboratory. There is no need to deny the existence of something that does not exist.” p.375
This book, as stated in my prior post, is used as a textbook at Fundamentalist seminaries and Bible colleges. It has chapters by faculty from Masters College and seminary. It is widely accepted. Recent printings state the same. IT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF ALL MENTAL ILLNESS OR BRAIN DISEASE.
3. Other recent books by nouthetic counselors make passing reference to mental illness but then make disclaimers that to one degree or another, speak of it in ways that diminish it as a concept. They often allude to over diagnosis, or misdiagnosis. Like some posters on here they used some alleged personal experience or other to seek to diminish the concept. The overwhelming amount of Nouthetic counseling literature either avoids or diminishes the field of psychiatry. None that I am aware of gives them the needed attention to make it accepted in a way that will be beneficial to victims of mental illness, or Brain disease if you prefer that term.
The present generation of Nouthetic counselors and teachers have not come to the place of giving mental illness (Brain disease) the acknowledgment and acceptance necessary. Because of this churches and individual Christians do not accept the genuinely mentally ill as being patients with disease that is no fault of theirs. In this local area I have seen this especially in graduates of Masters Seminary and college, and Christians who are or were members of John MacArthur’s Grace Community church. There is also a great deal of ignorance that continues to produce misconceptions and prejudice among those who would be labeled as Fundamentalist.
The Dr. Laura Hendrickson, who posted on here, was very helpful. She appears to have some relationship to the “Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship” in San Diego. This is a Nouthetic counseling related organization. While independent, it is associated with the Reformed Baptist churches and Orthodox Presbyterians. However, Dr. Laura appears to have her own independent ministry and her views are in some cases divergent from those of others in the institute. She certainly gave a good history of J.Adams ideas and the changes in Psychiatry and Psychotherapy. One that gives some insight into their aversion to mental health professionals. However, based on the Nouthetic literature of today, the changes have been minimal among many in Nouthetic counseling. There still exists an unreasoned prejudice against mental health professionals.
Nouthetic counseling has not changed sufficiently to warrant endorsement. It denies reality and is dangerous to those in most need of counsel and medical treatment. It is mis educating students and Christians and creating prejudice and non acceptance of those with Mental illness (Brain disease) in churches and among Christians. This brings heartache and spiritual abandonment from the churches. Among Fundamentalists we have Pastors who are willing to be indifferent to the extreme problems of Nouthetic counseling and instead search for fault and negligence among mental health care professionals. They cite some case of misdiagnosis or lack of followup by those referred to. Some still want to hunt for the sin causation as a priority.
No profession or field of endeavor is perfect. I, or others, have never claimed there has not been misdiagnosis or other problems in the mental health field. Due to money and lack of resources many victims of mental health problems are inadequately treated. However, this is so in the greater health care system. Such problems exist but do not do away with the validity and necessity of Mental illness treatment by the only ones who can handle the problems.
My plea to Fundamentalist oriented Pastors, faculty members, and congregations is to face the reality of the evidence against Nouthetic counseling and demand real and clear change. Also, bring your criticism into the present decade. Be wary of those who write or teach who cite twenty or thirty year old statements regarding mental illness and Psychiatry.
Make biblical truth the infallible priority and reject any truth or method that is contrary to scripture. Be open to accept truth that is not contrary to scripture and may be helpful. Make sure your your interpretation of scripture does not violate the original intent and is not being applied in a way that does not appear to be in accordance with original intent. Derived truth often requires excessive human intervention and may be wrong. But above all we need some humility. If you have not reasonably researched a subject then withhold dogmatic statements. Admit to possible limitations in education or reading. There are many Pastors today who have inadequate formal education for any ministry, do not read or study well, and yet are willing to wave the Bible and make dogmatic statements of ignorance about subjects they have researched little. This appears to be the norm in the field of counseling as it relates to mental illness. Psychiatry and Psychology make handy whipping boys in which we feel justified by our gallant stand for the Bible. The victims are those suffering from mental illness (Brain disease).
1. The interview you just listened to here on Sharper Iron specifically asserted the same criticisms of mental illness, psychiatry, and psychology. Please listen again if you need to. The criticisms involved three areas; the agenda of psychiatry, the diagnosis procedures of psychiatry, and the chicken and the egg concept which is that mental illness could be self inflicted. The criticisms are essentially the same that J. Adams expressed in 1970 and in keeping with my quote from “The big Umbrella” first published in 19972 but reprinted recently without changes.
2. The book “Introduction to Biblical Counseling,” John MacArthur editor, Word Publishing, 1994 with chapters by several others including several by Nouthetic counselor and professor Wayne Mack, states the following:
“The biblical counselor is accused of denying reality. Yet who is to say this is reality? Even though the majority of people in our society accept the theory of mental illness as a fact, that still does not make it a fact. Such reasoning is not scientific but philosophical. This is the same logic that says believers deny the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Many people believe they exist, so does that make them real? Since mental illness is a theory and not a fact, biblical counselors do not deny the existence of something that has been proven to exist by empirical data gained in the laboratory. There is no need to deny the existence of something that does not exist.” p.375
This book, as stated in my prior post, is used as a textbook at Fundamentalist seminaries and Bible colleges. It has chapters by faculty from Masters College and seminary. It is widely accepted. Recent printings state the same. IT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF ALL MENTAL ILLNESS OR BRAIN DISEASE.
3. Other recent books by nouthetic counselors make passing reference to mental illness but then make disclaimers that to one degree or another, speak of it in ways that diminish it as a concept. They often allude to over diagnosis, or misdiagnosis. Like some posters on here they used some alleged personal experience or other to seek to diminish the concept. The overwhelming amount of Nouthetic counseling literature either avoids or diminishes the field of psychiatry. None that I am aware of gives them the needed attention to make it accepted in a way that will be beneficial to victims of mental illness, or Brain disease if you prefer that term.
The present generation of Nouthetic counselors and teachers have not come to the place of giving mental illness (Brain disease) the acknowledgment and acceptance necessary. Because of this churches and individual Christians do not accept the genuinely mentally ill as being patients with disease that is no fault of theirs. In this local area I have seen this especially in graduates of Masters Seminary and college, and Christians who are or were members of John MacArthur’s Grace Community church. There is also a great deal of ignorance that continues to produce misconceptions and prejudice among those who would be labeled as Fundamentalist.
The Dr. Laura Hendrickson, who posted on here, was very helpful. She appears to have some relationship to the “Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship” in San Diego. This is a Nouthetic counseling related organization. While independent, it is associated with the Reformed Baptist churches and Orthodox Presbyterians. However, Dr. Laura appears to have her own independent ministry and her views are in some cases divergent from those of others in the institute. She certainly gave a good history of J.Adams ideas and the changes in Psychiatry and Psychotherapy. One that gives some insight into their aversion to mental health professionals. However, based on the Nouthetic literature of today, the changes have been minimal among many in Nouthetic counseling. There still exists an unreasoned prejudice against mental health professionals.
Nouthetic counseling has not changed sufficiently to warrant endorsement. It denies reality and is dangerous to those in most need of counsel and medical treatment. It is mis educating students and Christians and creating prejudice and non acceptance of those with Mental illness (Brain disease) in churches and among Christians. This brings heartache and spiritual abandonment from the churches. Among Fundamentalists we have Pastors who are willing to be indifferent to the extreme problems of Nouthetic counseling and instead search for fault and negligence among mental health care professionals. They cite some case of misdiagnosis or lack of followup by those referred to. Some still want to hunt for the sin causation as a priority.
No profession or field of endeavor is perfect. I, or others, have never claimed there has not been misdiagnosis or other problems in the mental health field. Due to money and lack of resources many victims of mental health problems are inadequately treated. However, this is so in the greater health care system. Such problems exist but do not do away with the validity and necessity of Mental illness treatment by the only ones who can handle the problems.
My plea to Fundamentalist oriented Pastors, faculty members, and congregations is to face the reality of the evidence against Nouthetic counseling and demand real and clear change. Also, bring your criticism into the present decade. Be wary of those who write or teach who cite twenty or thirty year old statements regarding mental illness and Psychiatry.
Make biblical truth the infallible priority and reject any truth or method that is contrary to scripture. Be open to accept truth that is not contrary to scripture and may be helpful. Make sure your your interpretation of scripture does not violate the original intent and is not being applied in a way that does not appear to be in accordance with original intent. Derived truth often requires excessive human intervention and may be wrong. But above all we need some humility. If you have not reasonably researched a subject then withhold dogmatic statements. Admit to possible limitations in education or reading. There are many Pastors today who have inadequate formal education for any ministry, do not read or study well, and yet are willing to wave the Bible and make dogmatic statements of ignorance about subjects they have researched little. This appears to be the norm in the field of counseling as it relates to mental illness. Psychiatry and Psychology make handy whipping boys in which we feel justified by our gallant stand for the Bible. The victims are those suffering from mental illness (Brain disease).
Bob, I think Laura H’s example is strong evidence that it isn’t really possible to generalize all that much about “nouthetic” on these points. Even Jay laments the fact that “nouthetic” is claimed by lots of folks who are fairly far removed (in his view) from what he drafted in the 70’s.
It’s quite clear that many, many nouthetic counselors have a healthy respect for medicinal treatments for brain disease. And, as Laura pointed out, Jay always granted that organic causes need organic cures as well.
So what you really have in the “nouthetic” area is a continuum. At one end—let’s say the right—you have some that affirm the possibility of brain disease & need for chemical solutions but see that as accounting for an extremely small number of cases and reject “schizophrenia.” At the left end, you have those who see brain disease as accounting for a much larger number of problems, including depression, and an expanded usefulness for drugs.
It seems that in your view, “nouthetic” is synonymous with the far right end of the scale, but there is just so much more out there today.
It’s quite clear that many, many nouthetic counselors have a healthy respect for medicinal treatments for brain disease. And, as Laura pointed out, Jay always granted that organic causes need organic cures as well.
So what you really have in the “nouthetic” area is a continuum. At one end—let’s say the right—you have some that affirm the possibility of brain disease & need for chemical solutions but see that as accounting for an extremely small number of cases and reject “schizophrenia.” At the left end, you have those who see brain disease as accounting for a much larger number of problems, including depression, and an expanded usefulness for drugs.
It seems that in your view, “nouthetic” is synonymous with the far right end of the scale, but there is just so much more out there today.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Bro Bob (and others),
It may help to understand the road Laura has traveled. This snatch is from the bio page on http://www.drlaurahendrickson.com/About_Laura.html her website :
It may help to understand the road Laura has traveled. This snatch is from the bio page on http://www.drlaurahendrickson.com/About_Laura.html her website :
Dr. Laura knows that God reigns in the storm! As a medical doctor and psychiatrist, juggling work and the care of a very challenging toddler (who was later diagnosed with autism), she developed severe depression. Later her doctors diagnosed bipolar and prescribed even more medicines, but they didn’t resolve the deeper issues that were producing the depression. Then she learned biblical counseling principles that taught her to deal with those deeper issues. Her depression and bipolar resolved, and she has not needed psychiatric medicines in 15 years. Dr. Laura now ministers as a biblical counselor at the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship in the San Diego area.Having crawled out of the trenches herself I am sure contributes to her unique, balanced perspective.
"I pray to God this day to make me an extraordinary Christian." --Whitefield http://strengthfortoday.wordpress.com
Aaron,
I do not understand. You state:
“It’s quite clear that many, many nouthetic counselors have a healthy respect for medicinal treatments for brain disease. And, as Laura pointed out, Jay always granted that organic causes need organic cures as well.”
Who are the many, many? Let me know please. Please see the evidence just offered. It includes your interview.
The most influential on this subject in the west is MacArthur and Masters College and Seminary. They clearly deny mental illness as a myth. They go into the Pastoral ministry and on church staff with this opinion. And please don’t try to differ with them as they know it all. They have the infallible truth on all subjects.
The closest Nouthetic counselors come to acknowledging Mental illness and the need for Psychiatry is a form of doublespeak. With one sentence or paragraph they giveth. With the next they taketh away. A perfect example is seen in the book “Why Christians can’t Trust Psychology” by Ed Bulkley. He expresses the doubts about mental illness quoting Thomas Sazs. He then acknowledges that some of it may be OK if it is organic disorder. He then gives all the problems of determining this and sows the doubts. All this doublespeak leaves an open door but raises doubts in readers. Actually he reveals that he really is not acquainted with the latest and best information on the subject. He is the radio counselor that I mentioned in a prior post who advised a Schizophrenic to stop his meds as that may be his problem.
What Dr. Laura pointed out was gracious. As she indicated, perhaps Jay Adams has indeed left an open door for possibilities but has not gone through it. There is a failure of repentance and clear acknowledgment. Just clear unequivocal acknowledgment would be helpful. In your interview he allowed his assistant to give all his arguments against Psychiatry and mental illness diagnosis. This was a take away after his open door.
MacArthur and Masters Seminary are very influential. They directly and clearly deny any concept of Mental illness. It is likened to a fairy tale. The Masters college offers Bachelors and Masters degrees in “Nouthetic Counseling. Some from Fundamentalist schools and churches have come to Masters for such degrees.
If you know of any Nouthetic literature that offers evidence for what you have just stated please inform me of it. I will be glad to acknowledge it and let others know. It would help alleviate the continued damage done by MacArthur and Masters college. There was just a Nouthetic training course offered at a local Bible church here in the valley. A graduate of Masters College taught the course. Several other chuches sent people. One of the main books was the one just cited by me; “Introduction to Biblical Counseling.” The teacher clearly denounced all Psychology and Psychiatry and the concept of “mental illness.” He then acknowledged the possibility of organic disorder but that a “regular doctor can handle that.” The organic disorders they have in mind are other than Brain disease unless it is a tumor.
Actually dealing with this issue reminds me of the old liberalism battles. The liberals would deny their denial then give a convoluted complicated explanation of the denial they deny.
I am open and eager for referral to any book or literature that clearly and sufficiently handles the mental illness subject as it is understood and treated today and expresses thankfulness to modern medicine for giving some hope to those who prior had no hope.
I do not understand. You state:
“It’s quite clear that many, many nouthetic counselors have a healthy respect for medicinal treatments for brain disease. And, as Laura pointed out, Jay always granted that organic causes need organic cures as well.”
Who are the many, many? Let me know please. Please see the evidence just offered. It includes your interview.
The most influential on this subject in the west is MacArthur and Masters College and Seminary. They clearly deny mental illness as a myth. They go into the Pastoral ministry and on church staff with this opinion. And please don’t try to differ with them as they know it all. They have the infallible truth on all subjects.
The closest Nouthetic counselors come to acknowledging Mental illness and the need for Psychiatry is a form of doublespeak. With one sentence or paragraph they giveth. With the next they taketh away. A perfect example is seen in the book “Why Christians can’t Trust Psychology” by Ed Bulkley. He expresses the doubts about mental illness quoting Thomas Sazs. He then acknowledges that some of it may be OK if it is organic disorder. He then gives all the problems of determining this and sows the doubts. All this doublespeak leaves an open door but raises doubts in readers. Actually he reveals that he really is not acquainted with the latest and best information on the subject. He is the radio counselor that I mentioned in a prior post who advised a Schizophrenic to stop his meds as that may be his problem.
What Dr. Laura pointed out was gracious. As she indicated, perhaps Jay Adams has indeed left an open door for possibilities but has not gone through it. There is a failure of repentance and clear acknowledgment. Just clear unequivocal acknowledgment would be helpful. In your interview he allowed his assistant to give all his arguments against Psychiatry and mental illness diagnosis. This was a take away after his open door.
MacArthur and Masters Seminary are very influential. They directly and clearly deny any concept of Mental illness. It is likened to a fairy tale. The Masters college offers Bachelors and Masters degrees in “Nouthetic Counseling. Some from Fundamentalist schools and churches have come to Masters for such degrees.
If you know of any Nouthetic literature that offers evidence for what you have just stated please inform me of it. I will be glad to acknowledge it and let others know. It would help alleviate the continued damage done by MacArthur and Masters college. There was just a Nouthetic training course offered at a local Bible church here in the valley. A graduate of Masters College taught the course. Several other chuches sent people. One of the main books was the one just cited by me; “Introduction to Biblical Counseling.” The teacher clearly denounced all Psychology and Psychiatry and the concept of “mental illness.” He then acknowledged the possibility of organic disorder but that a “regular doctor can handle that.” The organic disorders they have in mind are other than Brain disease unless it is a tumor.
Actually dealing with this issue reminds me of the old liberalism battles. The liberals would deny their denial then give a convoluted complicated explanation of the denial they deny.
I am open and eager for referral to any book or literature that clearly and sufficiently handles the mental illness subject as it is understood and treated today and expresses thankfulness to modern medicine for giving some hope to those who prior had no hope.
Dave Doran, president of Detroit Baptist Seminary that was mentioned by Bob, has requested that Bob speak to this comment.
[Bob T] I would add that as a pastor, and involved in the Christian community and institutions, I do believe that the J. Adams 1972 perspective on Mental Illness (Brain Disease) is alive and well and still expressed in today’s literature from those involved in Nouthetic counseling. The interview on here alludes to this. In the Book “Introduction to Biblical Counseling” edited by John MacArthur, the chapter by John indicates that there may not be such a thing as Schizophrenia and refers to a 23 yr. old Times magazine article. In other chapters the book is still referring to Freud and other prior figures for the purpose of discrediting psychology and psychiatry. It appears to admit to some usefulness but not much. This is a text book currently used at Central Baptist Seminary, Detroit Baptist Seminary, Calvary Baptist Seminary, and Masters College and Seminary. To me this is a very serious problem and discredits those schools. (emphasis added)Dave Doran says: I sure hope you’ve been careless with your words here or you’re discrediting yourself. What kind of an argument is this? Based on one objectionable (to you) statement in a very long book that covers a wide range of counseling issues, you conclude that the use of that book discredits a whole list of seminaries. Really, please tell me you aren’t serious and that this was a momentary hyperbolic lapse of some sort. Do you really believe that these seminaries are discredited by the use of this book as a reference for counseling classes?
Bob, I’d have to echo Dr.D’s incredulity there. We read a lot of stuff in seminary and interacted critically with all of it. I didn’t go to Detroit, but I’m quite sure nobody there knows how to brainwash anyone :)
I recall being a bit disappointed w/that volume myself, though it had some very strong portions. The section on unity of truth wasn’t very good at all I didn’t think. Lots of ink the margins of my copy.
I first read Competent to Counsel as a wet behind the ears freshman at BJU, and didn’t buy more than a few sentences of it. But years later I came to appreciate it much more, due to living more of life outside the halls of academ where it’s all abstract.
To answer your “where are they?” question. Bob, I don’t know anybody personally who sees the possibilities for brain disease quite as narrowly as Adams and MacArthur do (as for the latter, though, he does overstate his own points sometimes I think and probably leaves more wiggle room there than he seems to). But we’re still talking about differences in degree. They all acknowledge that brain disease exists and must be handled medically. Dr. Henderson is one example here in this thread who clearly sees more problems as falling under the “possibly due to brain disease” heading and also is much more relaxed about medications… but didn’t I already mention that?
I don’t want to list all the “nouthies” I know who are not far right on the scale without getting their permission. And I’ll admit that, in some cases, I’m sort of extrapolating their views on that part of things from other things I’ve heard them say.
I recall being a bit disappointed w/that volume myself, though it had some very strong portions. The section on unity of truth wasn’t very good at all I didn’t think. Lots of ink the margins of my copy.
I first read Competent to Counsel as a wet behind the ears freshman at BJU, and didn’t buy more than a few sentences of it. But years later I came to appreciate it much more, due to living more of life outside the halls of academ where it’s all abstract.
To answer your “where are they?” question. Bob, I don’t know anybody personally who sees the possibilities for brain disease quite as narrowly as Adams and MacArthur do (as for the latter, though, he does overstate his own points sometimes I think and probably leaves more wiggle room there than he seems to). But we’re still talking about differences in degree. They all acknowledge that brain disease exists and must be handled medically. Dr. Henderson is one example here in this thread who clearly sees more problems as falling under the “possibly due to brain disease” heading and also is much more relaxed about medications… but didn’t I already mention that?
I don’t want to list all the “nouthies” I know who are not far right on the scale without getting their permission. And I’ll admit that, in some cases, I’m sort of extrapolating their views on that part of things from other things I’ve heard them say.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Larry,
Just when did you graduate from Detroit Baptist? What year? Rolland McCune, the first President, is a former professor of mine and one I greatly respect. I last talked with him at the 50th Anniversary conference of Central Baptist Seminary. The last I knew he had no use for the D.Min degrees being awarded by some schools. As far as I know Detroit still does not award the D.Min degree.
I still have overall respect for this school but use of a book that may reflect a wrong and hurtful counseling philosophy is problematic. I would hope they are concerned. It demeans the mentally ill and causes wrongful discrimination against them. The real subjects to be concerned for here are the mentally ill and their families. They do not deserve the ignorance that brings wrongful prejudice. Many Fundamentalists of the past were on the wrong side of racial discrimination based on pseudo knowledge and supposedly standing for Bible truth. There are parallels here.
If you have indeed had some contact with Dave Doran then perhaps he will give you an explanation to pass on of their position regarding this book and what is taught in their counseling classes. I would be concerned with the use of any text that gave such a view regarding mental illness and Psychiatry. That is very important to ones overall counseling philosophy.
The book “Introduction to Biblical Counseling,” John MacArthur editor, Word Publishing, 1994 with chapters by several others including several by Nouthetic counselor and professor Wayne Mack, states the following:
“The biblical counselor is accused of denying reality. Yet who is to say this is reality? Even though the majority of people in our society accept the theory of mental illness as a fact, that still does not make it a fact. Such reasoning is not scientific but philosophical. This is the same logic that says believers deny the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Many people believe they exist, so does that make them real? Since mental illness is a theory and not a fact, biblical counselors do not deny the existence of something that has been proven to exist by empirical data gained in the laboratory. There is no need to deny the existence of something that does not exist.” p.375
With all due respect, the victims of Mental illness, and their families, anxiously await any explanation if they wish to offer one.
Just when did you graduate from Detroit Baptist? What year? Rolland McCune, the first President, is a former professor of mine and one I greatly respect. I last talked with him at the 50th Anniversary conference of Central Baptist Seminary. The last I knew he had no use for the D.Min degrees being awarded by some schools. As far as I know Detroit still does not award the D.Min degree.
I still have overall respect for this school but use of a book that may reflect a wrong and hurtful counseling philosophy is problematic. I would hope they are concerned. It demeans the mentally ill and causes wrongful discrimination against them. The real subjects to be concerned for here are the mentally ill and their families. They do not deserve the ignorance that brings wrongful prejudice. Many Fundamentalists of the past were on the wrong side of racial discrimination based on pseudo knowledge and supposedly standing for Bible truth. There are parallels here.
If you have indeed had some contact with Dave Doran then perhaps he will give you an explanation to pass on of their position regarding this book and what is taught in their counseling classes. I would be concerned with the use of any text that gave such a view regarding mental illness and Psychiatry. That is very important to ones overall counseling philosophy.
The book “Introduction to Biblical Counseling,” John MacArthur editor, Word Publishing, 1994 with chapters by several others including several by Nouthetic counselor and professor Wayne Mack, states the following:
“The biblical counselor is accused of denying reality. Yet who is to say this is reality? Even though the majority of people in our society accept the theory of mental illness as a fact, that still does not make it a fact. Such reasoning is not scientific but philosophical. This is the same logic that says believers deny the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Many people believe they exist, so does that make them real? Since mental illness is a theory and not a fact, biblical counselors do not deny the existence of something that has been proven to exist by empirical data gained in the laboratory. There is no need to deny the existence of something that does not exist.” p.375
With all due respect, the victims of Mental illness, and their families, anxiously await any explanation if they wish to offer one.
Just when did you graduate from Detroit Baptist? What year?MDiv in 98 and ThM in 01
I also respect and love Dr. McCune. DMins are not offered at DBTS, and I doubt they ever will be. DMins, like PhDs, depend on a lot of factors (although they are two totally different degrees). Some of them are useless. Others are not. But I am not sure how any of that applies here.
I still have overall respect for this school but use of a book that may reflect a wrong and hurtful counseling philosophy is problematic.I am not sure what class this book is used in. I think there is only one counseling class (as I recall) offered as an elective in summer school. Furthermore, I know that not all books used are fully endorsed. I don’t even think all the faculty would fully endorse Dr. McCune’s Systematic. As with any institution of higher education, books are used for variety of reasons. I have no idea what their stance is on the particular issue at hand, if they even have a stance.
Personally, Bob, I think you have bought into a position on mental illness that is as problematic as the one you are complaining against (which I also find problematic). I see that you say this book “may reflect a wrong and hurtful counseling philosophy.” That seems a bit of a backing away from your earlier charge. It is a welcome change (if it is in fact intended). I have the book in question. I haven’t read much of it. But like all books, we should interact critically with it.
I have no doubt that “brain disease” as Laura puts it is real. And I have no doubt that the psychiatric community is troubling free from any roots in the reality of the human condition as sinful. There can be no doubt that sin’s effects do reach into our physical bodies. Psychiatry’s failure to deal with that is inexcusable.
“The biblical counselor is accused of denying reality. Yet who is to say this is reality? Even though the majority of people in our society accept the theory of mental illness as a fact, that still does not make it a fact. Such reasoning is not scientific but philosophical. This is the same logic that says believers deny the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Many people believe they exist, so does that make them real? Since mental illness is a theory and not a fact, biblical counselors do not deny the existence of something that has been proven to exist by empirical data gained in the laboratory. There is no need to deny the existence of something that does not exist.” p.375
With all due respect, the victims of Mental illness, and their families, anxiously await any explanation if they wish to offer one.
I just want to say thanks to all who have posted here. 23 years ago, in Atlanta GA, 1986, as a wet behind the ears sophomore at a school which no longer exists, I heard a man teach on this very issue, and I never forgot it. He stated that it was essential for me as a future pastor to remember this.
People can have sin problems, and people can have medical problems, and they both can be present at the same time. Science/ Medicine doesn’t have all the answers to the medical side of things and will constantly change, but God’s word is sufficient to deal with the spiritual side of things. Pray that God will help you to find the best medical help for the medical side, and that he will guide you in applying the best method for dealing with the spiritual side, and trust him that together both sides will lead to healing to this one who needs it.
I have since learned this to be so true. Science will always be changing, but thank God His word doesn’t.
Thanks to all who are posting here, this has been a great refresher to my mind on the importance of this issue and how far this area has advanced.
People can have sin problems, and people can have medical problems, and they both can be present at the same time. Science/ Medicine doesn’t have all the answers to the medical side of things and will constantly change, but God’s word is sufficient to deal with the spiritual side of things. Pray that God will help you to find the best medical help for the medical side, and that he will guide you in applying the best method for dealing with the spiritual side, and trust him that together both sides will lead to healing to this one who needs it.
I have since learned this to be so true. Science will always be changing, but thank God His word doesn’t.
Thanks to all who are posting here, this has been a great refresher to my mind on the importance of this issue and how far this area has advanced.
From Day One Ministries - Ministering to the local church, from the very first verse
Rather than quote the part written to me, I will summarize.
Why does Bob think DBTS uses this as a textbook? Dr. Doran cannot find any record of it (though he is not going to spend the time rummaging around for it). He says, “I may have used it, but can’t recall—just like I almost always forget what books I’ve required for classes since they are only collateral reading, not the basis for the class. That really is the germane point here.”
I also wondered where Bob got this information. Bob, would you be so kind as to tell us where you got the idea that DBTS uses this as a textbook? I don’t recall it, but I have been out for a while.
Dr. Doran also corrected me on teh number of counseling classes. There are actually two: Intro to Biblical Counseling and Pastoral Counseling.
He continues,
Why does Bob think DBTS uses this as a textbook? Dr. Doran cannot find any record of it (though he is not going to spend the time rummaging around for it). He says, “I may have used it, but can’t recall—just like I almost always forget what books I’ve required for classes since they are only collateral reading, not the basis for the class. That really is the germane point here.”
I also wondered where Bob got this information. Bob, would you be so kind as to tell us where you got the idea that DBTS uses this as a textbook? I don’t recall it, but I have been out for a while.
Dr. Doran also corrected me on teh number of counseling classes. There are actually two: Intro to Biblical Counseling and Pastoral Counseling.
He continues,
I guess my reply to Bob is: (1) you incorrectly assumed that having a student read a book means that we teach everything in that book; (2) you engaged in a massive leap in argument from your assumption to the claim that using this book somehow discredits our institution; and (3) rather than acknowledge that you were hyper-ventilating, you doubled down on your position and tried to shift the subject away from the false accusation on you made. Very bad form.
Bob,
Dr. Doran makes excellent points. By the way, did you get my email?
Dr. Doran makes excellent points. By the way, did you get my email?
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
It is interesting that Larry and Roger want to now avoid tje revealed errors of Nouthetic counseling by trying to make an issue of a passing reference to a seminary. Sorry if I offended you.
First, if anyone, including Dave Doran, wishes to communicate on the internet with someone thay should do it directly.
If the posted qoute by Larry is from Dave Doran, I would expect it to be of some reasonable explanation. How can he plead that he can’t remember if this book was used but then accuse me of making a false accusation? Hmmm. If Dave Doran’s opinion is important to you Larry that is your concern. I am sure Dave Doran is a fine young man and good Pastor. However, he has little to contribute to this subject at this point and I am really not that interested in what he has to say.
Larry, you evidently are a graduate of this school and your views regarding mental illness, sin, and accountability appear fairly unenlightened. You appear to now say you accept “Brain disease” but not accept it as involving clear no fault physiological causes. You keep bringing up sin. Is that also the general outlook of the school? Your prior posts appear to want to hold mentally ill people to account for a sin problem when in fact you and I may have more of a sin problem than some of them. What has made them unable to see reality, have hallucinations, and other problems, is not caused by their specific sins anymore than one with Cancer has the disease due to sins. All people are sinners. God has a remedy. But it is not an issue to be dealt with as connected to their mental Brain disease. You state:
“I have no doubt that “brain disease” as Laura puts it is real. And I have no doubt that the psychiatric community is troubling free from any roots in the reality of the human condition as sinful. There can be no doubt that sin’s effects do reach into our physical bodies. Psychiatry’s failure to deal with that is inexcusable.”
This is the double speak and giving and then taking away that I mention in a prior post. You appear to be saying Brain disease is real but just maybe sin reached into the human body as a cause. You then hold Psychiatry to account for not dealing with it. When I had Cancer I forgot to hold the surgeon and then the Oncologist accountable for not dealing with the sin issue. When our children were born we forgot to hold the physician accountable for the sin issues involved even though the birth pains were a revealed part of the curse. Oh wait, the physicians and nurses were not Christians and not subject to Christian accountability. Also, their responsability and duty was to deal with the physical disease. The visit by a Pastor would have possibly handled any spiritual problems. In the same way, most all mental health providers, the Psychiatrist and nurses, have the expertise to deal with the physical diseases. A Pastor can handle any spiritual problems if he has a proper understanding and humility to understand his limitations. He should also be appreciative of the work of the health care providers even though not Christian. The person we are involved with as caretakers, goes to one of the Psychiatrists at the county mental health clinic. They provide free care and bill medicaid for some. The medications are paid for by medicare. This is the case for most all disabled mentally ill. The psychiatrists are usually not Christians. Some care more than others. Contrary to some opinions, they are not antagonistic to a persons faith. They have seen it may help in some areas of living. The mentally disabled are reliant on SSDI and Medicare - Medicaid. They cannot work. They have no private health insurance. They are not accepted in most churches. Most Pastors do not really undersatand the issues. They do not understand that there are times when the mentally disabled cannot talk or will not talk. They can take things wrongly and misunderstand. One young man who was Christiian thought he needed to cut off his hand to keep out of hell in order to be obedient. He thought that the Pastor who tried to explain the scripture was seeking to explain it away and became angry at him. His medication was upped slightly and he regained a grasp on reality. He is now working part time and wants to go to school. However, he will need to continue to take his meds. We are thankful for the continued advances in diagnosis, medicine, and practical knowledge of the course of an illness. We are also thankful for what government aid is available as medication, especially new ones, are very expensive.
To put it simply, we cannot, and should not, hold Psychiatry, a medical specialty, responsible for not dealing adequatly with sin. Psychiatrists diagnose disease and prescribe, The Psychologist or social workers talk. If a Pastor wants to be the talker he better have the properly informed perspective. As all my posts have attempted to point out, Nouthetic counseling has, and cintinues to have, the wrong perspective. I have given solid evidence for this. They are dangerous and harmful to the small percentage who are genuinely mentally ill. The other 98% of counseling is best handled by non Nouthetic Biblical counselors. The most effective are congregation peers with good bible knowledge and a little counseling guidance. The alleged professional counselors are less effective. This is based on some followup studies I have read.
Most people who go to the secular NAMI meetings are family caretakers. All who have any relationship to a church state that the church and staff really have no understanding. If they are in a conservative Evangelical church or Fundamentalist church they often have been victimized and have the suspicion of fault hanging over them. In this area , churches with Masters graduates as pastors usually are taught that Mental Illness is a myth.
It is very disappointing to see some of the posters on here who have ignored the truth and are defensive of Nouthetic counseling. I have found that I have been able to talk with Evangelical Pastors who have more understanding and compassion on this subject. A friend of mine is a Christian Psychiatrist. Besides his M.D. he has a PHD degree in Biochemistry and an M.Div. from Western Baptist Seminary. I have been able to bounce my findings off him and in turn get information from him. He desires to put together a lecture series on this. Most from Masters and GARBC and independent Baptists have stated they will not come as they already know it all and feel to change to an acceptance of mental illness would be unbiblical. From what I have been able to determine, the Fundamentalist schools are teaching Nouthetic counseling and remain against Mental illness and Psychiatry in various degrees. I am open to anyone referring me to books, literature, or persons who are openly anad clearly advocating a more balanced and enlightened position. Such sources would be promoted by me.
It is hoped that my posts on here may help some who read them and encourage some to gain a balanced view on this subject. The Mentally ill are all around us and ignored, They need compassion and understanding. The next time you see a person pushing a shopping cart, take a second look. They are someones son or daughter. Have their parents passed away and now they have no one who cares? They may be an alcoholic or on drugs and have some responsibility for their condition. But look closely. They could be mentally ill and off their meds and no one to care. Meanwhile we have schools teaching counseling and view point built upon someones theory. We have young students worried about the Ordo or the order of the decrees. And than we have the Fundamentalists who know everything and are sure there just must be sin that needs to be handled because human behavior is their area of expertise and we must not allow science to invade our territory. What to do? Make up a counseling system that excludes them!
First, if anyone, including Dave Doran, wishes to communicate on the internet with someone thay should do it directly.
If the posted qoute by Larry is from Dave Doran, I would expect it to be of some reasonable explanation. How can he plead that he can’t remember if this book was used but then accuse me of making a false accusation? Hmmm. If Dave Doran’s opinion is important to you Larry that is your concern. I am sure Dave Doran is a fine young man and good Pastor. However, he has little to contribute to this subject at this point and I am really not that interested in what he has to say.
Larry, you evidently are a graduate of this school and your views regarding mental illness, sin, and accountability appear fairly unenlightened. You appear to now say you accept “Brain disease” but not accept it as involving clear no fault physiological causes. You keep bringing up sin. Is that also the general outlook of the school? Your prior posts appear to want to hold mentally ill people to account for a sin problem when in fact you and I may have more of a sin problem than some of them. What has made them unable to see reality, have hallucinations, and other problems, is not caused by their specific sins anymore than one with Cancer has the disease due to sins. All people are sinners. God has a remedy. But it is not an issue to be dealt with as connected to their mental Brain disease. You state:
“I have no doubt that “brain disease” as Laura puts it is real. And I have no doubt that the psychiatric community is troubling free from any roots in the reality of the human condition as sinful. There can be no doubt that sin’s effects do reach into our physical bodies. Psychiatry’s failure to deal with that is inexcusable.”
This is the double speak and giving and then taking away that I mention in a prior post. You appear to be saying Brain disease is real but just maybe sin reached into the human body as a cause. You then hold Psychiatry to account for not dealing with it. When I had Cancer I forgot to hold the surgeon and then the Oncologist accountable for not dealing with the sin issue. When our children were born we forgot to hold the physician accountable for the sin issues involved even though the birth pains were a revealed part of the curse. Oh wait, the physicians and nurses were not Christians and not subject to Christian accountability. Also, their responsability and duty was to deal with the physical disease. The visit by a Pastor would have possibly handled any spiritual problems. In the same way, most all mental health providers, the Psychiatrist and nurses, have the expertise to deal with the physical diseases. A Pastor can handle any spiritual problems if he has a proper understanding and humility to understand his limitations. He should also be appreciative of the work of the health care providers even though not Christian. The person we are involved with as caretakers, goes to one of the Psychiatrists at the county mental health clinic. They provide free care and bill medicaid for some. The medications are paid for by medicare. This is the case for most all disabled mentally ill. The psychiatrists are usually not Christians. Some care more than others. Contrary to some opinions, they are not antagonistic to a persons faith. They have seen it may help in some areas of living. The mentally disabled are reliant on SSDI and Medicare - Medicaid. They cannot work. They have no private health insurance. They are not accepted in most churches. Most Pastors do not really undersatand the issues. They do not understand that there are times when the mentally disabled cannot talk or will not talk. They can take things wrongly and misunderstand. One young man who was Christiian thought he needed to cut off his hand to keep out of hell in order to be obedient. He thought that the Pastor who tried to explain the scripture was seeking to explain it away and became angry at him. His medication was upped slightly and he regained a grasp on reality. He is now working part time and wants to go to school. However, he will need to continue to take his meds. We are thankful for the continued advances in diagnosis, medicine, and practical knowledge of the course of an illness. We are also thankful for what government aid is available as medication, especially new ones, are very expensive.
To put it simply, we cannot, and should not, hold Psychiatry, a medical specialty, responsible for not dealing adequatly with sin. Psychiatrists diagnose disease and prescribe, The Psychologist or social workers talk. If a Pastor wants to be the talker he better have the properly informed perspective. As all my posts have attempted to point out, Nouthetic counseling has, and cintinues to have, the wrong perspective. I have given solid evidence for this. They are dangerous and harmful to the small percentage who are genuinely mentally ill. The other 98% of counseling is best handled by non Nouthetic Biblical counselors. The most effective are congregation peers with good bible knowledge and a little counseling guidance. The alleged professional counselors are less effective. This is based on some followup studies I have read.
Most people who go to the secular NAMI meetings are family caretakers. All who have any relationship to a church state that the church and staff really have no understanding. If they are in a conservative Evangelical church or Fundamentalist church they often have been victimized and have the suspicion of fault hanging over them. In this area , churches with Masters graduates as pastors usually are taught that Mental Illness is a myth.
It is very disappointing to see some of the posters on here who have ignored the truth and are defensive of Nouthetic counseling. I have found that I have been able to talk with Evangelical Pastors who have more understanding and compassion on this subject. A friend of mine is a Christian Psychiatrist. Besides his M.D. he has a PHD degree in Biochemistry and an M.Div. from Western Baptist Seminary. I have been able to bounce my findings off him and in turn get information from him. He desires to put together a lecture series on this. Most from Masters and GARBC and independent Baptists have stated they will not come as they already know it all and feel to change to an acceptance of mental illness would be unbiblical. From what I have been able to determine, the Fundamentalist schools are teaching Nouthetic counseling and remain against Mental illness and Psychiatry in various degrees. I am open to anyone referring me to books, literature, or persons who are openly anad clearly advocating a more balanced and enlightened position. Such sources would be promoted by me.
It is hoped that my posts on here may help some who read them and encourage some to gain a balanced view on this subject. The Mentally ill are all around us and ignored, They need compassion and understanding. The next time you see a person pushing a shopping cart, take a second look. They are someones son or daughter. Have their parents passed away and now they have no one who cares? They may be an alcoholic or on drugs and have some responsibility for their condition. But look closely. They could be mentally ill and off their meds and no one to care. Meanwhile we have schools teaching counseling and view point built upon someones theory. We have young students worried about the Ordo or the order of the decrees. And than we have the Fundamentalists who know everything and are sure there just must be sin that needs to be handled because human behavior is their area of expertise and we must not allow science to invade our territory. What to do? Make up a counseling system that excludes them!
[Bob T.] It is hoped that my posts on here may help some who read them and encourage some to gain a balanced view on this subject.But Bob, you are not presenting a balanced view on the subject.
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