Interview with Dr. Jay Adams

Aaron

Do you sense there is a significant difference in their understanding and presentation of sanctification between Adams and the CCEF guys? Was the idols of the heart question an example of this?

Can I share a neat story? My husband’s brother, an MD in a town near where Dr. Adams lived at the time, was thrown a surprise party about a dozen years ago for a “big” birthday. We went early to help, and my husband ended up parking cars for over an hour, hiding them behind a neighbor’s house, with a really nice man with a beard. When they returned to the house, I enjoyed a brief conversation with the same very friendly and kindly man. Neither one of us asked his name at the time. It wasn’t until about a half hour later that we realized that my husband had parked cars for an hour with Jay Adams. We ended up eating near him and his wife at the party, and they were delightful dinner companions. I had read several of Dr. Adams’ books - had used them as college textbooks as well - and it was nice to see that in real life he was the “real thing.”

Jay E. Adams states the following in the book “The Big Umbrella”:

“In this country, because of a prestigious alliance with the A.M.A., a psychiatrist is required to have an M.D. But you will soon agree that Freud was right if you read the articles written by some psychiatrists complaining about the necessity to take medical training that they never use in their work and soon forget. The point is this: there is nothing a psychiatrist does with his medical training that a physician couldn’t do just as well, or better. And the physician could do it in conjunction with a pastoral counselor. The psychiatrist may write prescriptions for tranquilizers or other pills now and then, but a physician does that all of the time. There is no need for a specialty in order to prescribe pills.”

The Big Umbrella, p.6, Presbyterian and Reformed, 1972.

This statement reveals one of the major problems with the Nouthetic counseling philosophy. Psychiatrist is a medical specialty that involves special and continuous training in those aspects of medicine and research that involve the brain and neurology and the various diseases that affect them. In actual practice they have left Freud far behind. They are specialists who through knowledge and research are able to diagnose a cause and when necessary prescribe proper medication. There are now over 70 anti psychotic drugs available. Only the specialist physician (Psychiatrist) can accurately and safely prescribe them. Most all physicians in general or family practice will not get involved in prescribing anti psychotic drugs or treating mental problems. They may prescribe mood elevation drugs in some cases. If you have a serious medical problem you most likely will be referred to a specialist who understands a specific area of medicine. When it comes to genuine mental illness, the general practice physician or Psychologist will not treat the mentally ill without a psychiatrist being involved. It is a medical problem requiring a medical specialist.

This statement by Jay E. Adams appears to indicate a great deal of prejudice against the psychiatrist and very little knowledge of how they practice. It is a statement of monumental ignorance. This foundation assumption regarding psychiatry continues today in the second generation of Nouthetic counselors. They talk of physician referral but not psychiatric referral. They speak of mental illness but then start talking about depression. Depression alone is not mental illness though it may involve a medical cause.

Those who would be classified as genuinely mentally ill can only be properly cared for with the help of psychiatry. The drug prescription medication is almost always needed. With the mentally ill the proper drug is usually the only answer. The Schizophrenic or Bipolar person will suffer delusions, paranoia, and uncontrolled attitudes and moods without proper medication.

Chemical imbalance is today often diagnosed based on medical testing. Brain scans show the differences in function of a normal brain and a brain with chemical imbalances. This is now well established verifiable medical science.

In the interview, the person with J.E. Adams gives three problems with psychology (psychiatry). They are “agenda, diagnostic, and the chicken and the egg.” His statements are filled with errors and serious ignorance of modern psychiatry.

Most mentally ill people are not in the office of the private psychiatrist or psychologist. They also are not attending church even though they may be a Christian. They are being seen by a psychiatrist at the public health centers and are on SSDI or SSI. They are also on Medicaid. They get about 600 to 800 dollars to live on each month and do not have adequate shelter or care. If they have families that care they may have a place to live. They often do not take their medication and become confused. You see them pushing their shopping carts with their belongings. Those who have help and take their medication can often live fairly normal lives. The difference is the modern medicine available for treatment and getting them to take it regularly.

I would recommend that everyone see the movie “The Soloist.” It is a true story and parts of it are filmed at Christian run shelters in Los Angeles that specialize in sheltering the mentally ill. Those of us who have family members who suffer from mental illness and who are caretakers, understand the reality in this film.

Those of us who are caretakers of mentally ill persons view J.E. Adams as a seriously ignorant and dangerous person and training in Nouthetic counseling as a joke. The whole field of Nouthetic counseling as a false intellectual discipline built on contrived reality and selective biblical truth. A degree, usually a D.Min., in Nouthetic counseling is a degree in a made up field that pretends to have answers by ignoring the real problems.

Nouthetic counseling is as integrationist as other approaches to Psychology and counseling. They will use many of the statistics and findings of studies done in clinical Psychology. It seeks to derive a system of truth for counseling from scripture and the impose this system on scripture.

Biblical counseling recognizes the priority of truth is established by scripture and will endeavor to screen all principles and methods that ar expressly contrary to scripture. However, it will recognize and accept that if something is discovered and known from sources other than scripture and is reasonably verifiable as true. All truth is God’s truth. No truth can conflict with the truth of scripture that is clear and properly applied.

One truth that is improperly applied here is the concept of the sufficiency of the scriptures. The scriptures are sufficient for the purposes intended. To use both scripture and other disciplines together in gaining an answer to a specific problem does not diminish the scriptures. The scriptures give answers for the soul. They give no instructions in human anatomy or diseases of the body. Man is a living soul and has a body. His soul works with and through the body. If we have a problem with the brain our soul will be effected in the way we express ourselves and behave. Integration of truth is essential to have a proper understanding and arrive at a proper spiritual interpretation of cause and effect.

Nouthetic counseling is a recently derived and invented system that diminshes real bibilical counseling. It was invented out of thin air. It was not part of historic approaches to sanctification or part of historic Fundamentalism. True Fundamentalism seeks to protect the church from dangerous movements. and trends. Nouthetic counseling should be looked upon as being in the same intellectual catagory as the KJVO movement.. It has an improper view of the the application and intent of scripture and has created a dangerous cultic mindset which has an improper view of the relation of Revelatory truth and non revalatory truth. Six day creationism is a clear on the face scriptural teaching. Nouthetic counseling has no such clear scriptures for its foundation principles. Its name and many of the scriptures used are misapplied from the original intent. It was improper to compare this non acceptance of Nouthetic counseling with acceptance and non acceptance of evolution. However, that statement reveals the cultic false epistemology that this system rests upon.

I do not believe I have ever met Bob T so I have no way of gauging whether or not his comments about Dr. Adams are intended to be tongue in cheek or not. Either way, he has given SI readers a good example of the kind of vitriol Dr. Adams has attracted for over 40 years. For Bob T, a man who I gather from his posting is somehow invested in the mental health industry, Jay Adams is not a fellow believer and follower of Christ whose views are to be debated and evaluated. Instead, he is “dangerous,” “ignorant,” and “cultic.” His views are “a joke,” “invented out of thin air,” “in the same category as the KJV only movement,” “prejudiced,” “misapplications of Scripture,” and (amazingly) “integrationist.” I am not sure how the ad hominim pejoratives contribute to the discussion.

I thought I had heard all the criticisms of Dr. Adams that could be raised but Bob T presents one that is new to me. He is quite correct that today most psychiatrists “have left Freud far behind.” The quote he posts is from a book Dr. Adams wrote in 1972, a time when Freud was still revered in the psychological world. But for Bob T, Dr. Adams is to be faulted for not being prescient enough to know what the secular psychological landscape would look like 37 years later in 2009. Still, the point Adams made in 1972 is even more true today. Most psychiatrists do not do truly medical work. They prescribe drugs philosophically, not medically.

The term “mental illness” is at best, a metaphor. It is not a reality. The mind is not a biological organ and therefore cannot be “ill.” The brain (a biological organ that can be treated medically) is not the same thing as the mind. In the Scriptures, the terms “mind,” “heart,” and “soul” are used interchangeably to describe the inner person where one thinks and lives before God. We will continue to think long after our brain is buried and decayed.

Donn,

A quick philosophical point; you are fallacious in your reasoning about the mind.

Besides the fact that there are Christian non-reductive physicalists (a view I do not support or think well of, but it exists and is cogent), one can be a dualist and still think “mental illness” is a reality. Besides the fact that your point about metaphor is of dubious relevance and meaning (almost everything can be shown to be metaphorical; this is major issue in studies of “metaphor” and the “literal” sense), and the fact that your idea of “illness” is rather reductive, one can still argue that the mind is numerically distinct from the brain yet claim, as any responsible dualist that I know of would (e.g. Alvin Plantinga), that the proper functioning of the brain is a necessary condition for the proper functioning of the mind. Thus, brain functioning corrolates, quite obviously (hence the otherwise inexplicable attraction of reductive physicalism/materialism in neuro-science), with mental functioning.

This point alone indicates the fallaciousness of your reasoning, but beyond this point, one can note the fact that one of the dominant strands of dualism, one based on Aristotelian/Thomistic hylomporphism (the body is the matter that is informed by the mind, which is the form), would also support the idea of mental illness, because this tradition, quite influential in Christianity, argues that though mind and matter are distinct, they are inseparable, at least in this life, and therefore they function together.

It’s simply basic ignorance of neuro-science to not acknowledge what everyone knows: that brain states corrolate with incredible precision to “mental states,” and even if this erroneously leads some to reduce the latter to the former, it should lead no one to deny the corrolation and inseparability of the two.

[Donn R Arms] I do not believe I have ever met Bob T so I have no way of gauging whether or not his comments about Dr. Adams are intended to be tongue in cheek or not. Either way, he has given SI readers a good example of the kind of vitriol Dr. Adams has attracted for over 40 years. For Bob T, a man who I gather from his posting is somehow invested in the mental health industry, Jay Adams is not a fellow believer and follower of Christ whose views are to be debated and evaluated. Instead, he is “dangerous,” “ignorant,” and “cultic.” His views are “a joke,” “invented out of thin air,” “in the same category as the KJV only movement,” “prejudiced,” “misapplications of Scripture,” and (amazingly) “integrationist.” I am not sure how the ad hominem pejoratives contribute to the discussion.

I thought I had heard all the criticisms of Dr. Adams that could be raised but Bob T presents one that is new to me. He is quite correct that today most psychiatrists “have left Freud far behind.” The quote he posts is from a book Dr. Adams wrote in 1972, a time when Freud was still revered in the psychological world. But for Bob T, Dr. Adams is to be faulted for not being prescient enough to know what the secular psychological landscape would look like 37 years later in 2009. Still, the point Adams made in 1972 is even more true today. Most psychiatrists do not do truly medical work. They prescribe drugs philosophically, not medically.

The term “mental illness” is at best, a metaphor. It is not a reality. The mind is not a biological organ and therefore cannot be “ill.” The brain (a biological organ that can be treated medically) is not the same thing as the mind. In the Scriptures, the terms “mind,” “heart,” and “soul” are used interchangeably to describe the inner person where one thinks and lives before God. We will continue to think long after our brain is buried and decayed.

First, please note that there are no ad hominum attacks of Jay E. Adams. The attacks are of his ideas and outlook and that of Nouthetic counseling. However your post does involve an ad hominem attack.

Second, as noted by the remarks, and those of his assistant in the interview, his views regarding psychiatry are essentially the same today. Also, this view can also be seen in some of the recent books by second generation Nouthetic counselors. Edward T. Welch and others will talk of physiological causes but then go no further than depression and the over prescribing of drugs. They will mention Schizophrenia or bipolar but never deal with them or other mental illness. Their acquaintance appears to indicate almost no understanding of psychiatric illness (the latest PC label).

Third, I am familiar with the Biblical terms for the soul and would differ that Soul, mind, and spirit are exact synonyms. Man is a living soul. That immaterial soul has a spirit aspect and a mind aspect. However, the term used is not “mind illness” referring to the immaterial aspect of the soul but “mental illness” which refers to the process and result of thinking. It refers to the mental process which involves the mind and the brain and the result. The mind is not able to function properly through the Brain when the organ of the Brain is not functioning properly. The result is “mental illness”. It is “mental” and it is “illness” as there is physiological disease involved. The aversion of Nouthetic counseling to this term is most likely due to their agenda. This agenda involves false concepts of the sufficiency of scripture and of epistemology or how we know truth. All truth is God’s truth. However, non revelatory truth can be wrong and therefore non truth. This does not preclude the reasonable verification and acceptance of non revelatory truth. We do this every day of our lives. We repair our automobiles, repair our electronics, and are healed through medical science. All such truth is God’s truth. This does not diminish scripture as th priority truth source to which all truth must be compared and that no truth can contradict.

Fourth, my characterization of Nouthetic counseling may seem overly harsh but expresses the true feelings and opinions of many Christians who are caretakers for the mentally ill. Once one is critically confronted with those mentally ill, the ideas and literature of the Nouthetic counseling movement appear as a cruel joke. There is a Christian care center in Grand Rapids, Michigan that focuses on the mentally handicapped or ill. They do not allow Charismatic or Nouthetic oriented Christians to be involved in their ministry. The charismatics cannot differentiate between physiological illness and Demonization. They also want miracle healing on demand. The Nouthetic Counselors have insufficient appreciation of the psychiatric diagnosis and necessity of prescription drugs. They often diminish the need for drugs and this can be dangerous for the mentally ill who are hard to deal with in this matter. Both are extremely dangerous to the well being of the genuinely mentally ill. The Christian care centers in L.A. County are of the same opinion. I heard a Nouthetic counselor who has a regular Radio progrem speak many time overly harshly of anti psychotic drugs and their use. On one occasion he advised a caller who by admission had been under hospital care several times and who did not like taking hes medication to “stop immediatly because this may be your problem. ” He was advised to seek Biblical counseling and to “get off drugs.” To the care taker, of this person this was dangerous advice. When off of medicine some mentally illness can become dangerous, especially to those close to them.

Fifth, your accusation that psychiatrists do not do medical work, and prescribe drugs philosophically rather than medically, is not what is occurring today. This is the kind of opinion that makes Nouthetic counseling dangerous. This is why most Nouthetic counselors do not refer to Psychiatrists. Only the psychiatrist can deal with the reality of the medical problem that is mental illness. It is the general practitioner Physician who is likely to prescribe a mood drug without proper medical consideration. The psychiatrist gains vast experience in dealing with the mentally ill. The local psychiatrists in the L.A. county mental health dept. see from 8 to 10 seriously mentally ill a day. They can recognize symptoms with little problem. However, they will also order all necessary and pertinent testing. Everyone they see is on disability due to mental illness. These are not just depression or behavior cases. It is estimated that 1% of the adult population has such serious mental illness. This has nothing to do with the kind of problems the Psychologist or Christian counselor deals with.

Sixth, there are many Fundamentalists who are able to fully honor scripture by rejecting that which is contrary but recognize the blessings of truth gained from different intellectual disciplines. Such disciplines as Psychology have a history of many theories that were, and are, contrary to biblical truth. However, the progress of knowledge has still been blessed by many of the findings in this field. Christian counselors with insufficient theological discernment and Biblical commitment can be a problem. True Biblical based counseling is based upon the foundation of a good theological knowledge, practical experience, a willingness to learn from many sources, and a willingness to recognize limitations. Humility should make us thankful for established truth and increased affectiveness in psychiatric medicine. Nouthetic counseling theory and methodology have presumptions that interfere with true biblical counseling and dealing fairly and affectively with genuine mental illness.

Very Good post Aaron. To add to it, there are many within the psychatric community that are unwilling to deal with the short falls. On more than one occassion, I have referred someone who needed to be hospitalized (they were a danger to themselves or someone else or both). It was clear to everyone (police, EMTs, me) that they were going to hurt themselves or others. They were home withing two hours b/c they talked a good game. In my area that happens often, but I still refer.

Aaron,

My opinions regarding Nouthetic counseling are expressed in terms giving reasons why it is not considered a valid counseling philosophy. I do not believe these would normally be characterized as a rant.

Before Nouthetic counseling was proposed out of thin air, all Biblical counseling recognized your items 1 through 3. Most recognized your item no. 4 in various degrees.

A very serious problem exists within the Nouthetic counseling philosophy. This problem is that all true and genuine mental illness is physiologically based and can only be treated by Psychiatrists. The accepted, and medically effective treatment, is with anti psychotic drugs. Nouthetic counseling simply cannot accept this and in various ways seek to diminish this need of such treatment. In their scenario of the “Chicken and the egg” they even seek to propose that there may be some responsibility upon the mentally ill because they choose their thinking and behavior and this then changes Brain chemistry. This has been the subject of much research and is thoroughly discredited by all legitimately recognized studies. After the fact change does occur in some cases because such conditions as Schizophrenia often continue to deteriorate, especially if medication is not taken regularly. Yet this middle ages philosophy was stated in the interview with you. Nouthetic counseling is based upon defective research, pooled ignorance of those wishing to uphold some sort of Biblical accountability for all behavior, and a paranoid attitude toward culture and society that includes an aversion to science that involves the mind and human behavior. In this respect the anti intellectual tendency toward knowledge by Fundamentalists has produced the embracing of a counseling theory that is dangerous. It is like the mentality of some groups that advocate faith only healing and are against the intervention of medical treatment. In the same way, Nouthetic counseling presents a false anthropological view of man and mental problems. It is defective both philosophically and theologically.

There are two dangers to the historic Fundamentalist ideas. One is the KJVO movement. The other is the Nouthetic counseling movement. Both are built upon pseudo intellectualism and extra biblical dogmatism.

We certainly can agree on items 1 to3 and with some of item 4. However, it is the extra baggage of the Nouthetic counseling movement that is the problem. They have philosophical assumptions that are not only extra biblical, but in the case of their view of th constitution of man, are contrary to scripture. A big step would be their at least being aware of what medical science now knows with regard to the human brain and behavior. It would also be good for them to acknowledge the need to treat mental illness with anti psychotic drugs and being thankful that such drugs are now available. Just 30 years ago the drug treatment picture was severely limited. 50 years ago we had to lock up the mentally ill as the only way of keeping them safe. Nouthetic counselors continually misrepresent the drug prescription treatment picture and the methodology of Psychiatrists. Until they can present knowledgeable and truthful picture of this necessary and effective aspect of medicine they are guilty of negligence based on ignorance and being a stumbling block to the treatment of the mentally ill. We are not talking here about the thousands who receive counseling for various problems. They can be handled by knowledgeable laymen and trained biblical counselors. We are talking about the “mentally ill.” Such have physiologically based problems.

I have not painted with broad strokes. I am not giving a rant. I am telling you that thousands of people, many Christians included, deal with mental illness daily. Nouthetic counseling is an enemy to them. Many Christian families with loved ones who are mentally ill look at Nouthetic counseling advocates like those advocating a flat earth. Their Fundamentalist mentality is seen as prjudice based on ignorance.

Nouthetic counseling does not adequately display the love of God and the compassion of the Lord Jesus Christ. This has been stated to me in various ways by both mentally ill Christians and their care takers. How right they are. This is seen even in your interview with Jay E. Adams. They appear to receive those who criticize as persecutors of their stand for biblical truth. In reality they bring turmoil and misunderstanding based on false biblical views to many who suffer and are in need of a truly biblical and Christ like approach to their problems.

Aaron & Bob

Aaron

Your list (1-3) is where it seems the church lost its way at one point, and the “nouthetic” world is seeking to reclaim to the good of the church. I do think many “Bible believing” churches still chalk most aberant and even sinful behaviors to imbalances and emotional sicknesses, that are simply the long term affects of sin.

Bob

Your experiences reflect two things. One is just like the term fundamentalism, those claiming “nouthetic” represent a wide spectrum of beliefs and practices. Sometimes a good idea is practiced imperfectly, thus to some impugning the idea. Your experience is/was real, but my experience with the nouthetic world has been far different, particularly on the compassion side and the medication approach. Most instruction I have been given has emphasized that since we are not doctors, refer any counselee to a doctor and don’t attempt to play doctor. Focus on the spiritual issues that are present and leave the physical to those who are trained.

Secondly, the question you have raised seems to deal with severe situations that do bring both medical professionals and the Church to a place of humility and some uncertainty. Obviously, you have experience with a situation that has greatly affected you and those close to you. Even the work of medical professionals in these case does not bring “healing”, but may allow someone to exist and live. These drugs may indeed be needed mercies, but to everyone’s sorrow they do not result in a return to lasting health.

In my experience, these cases are not the majority of people that are being ministered to in churches. Most who are needing help in the church today do struggle with clear issues of obedience and trust. Some have been under the care of psychiatry and have not received the “therapy” to address the heart struggles that are present. They feel like they have “stabalized” emotionally, but they lack the knowledge and hope to really change their relationships, attitudes, affections, and actions. That is where the nouthetic world is aimed, returning care of the immaterial man to the Church.

Aaron,

I do not know what your point is? What I have posted has nothing to do with counseling regarding problems that may involve sin. However, it would appear to me that Nouthetic counseling is wrong in many instances in this sphere of counseling. The well taught biblical pastor may be more effective than the trained Nouthetic counselor in dealing with normal counseling problems. Many so called Nouthetic counselors are merely part of a new pseudo profession that has little legitimacy. It is like Chiropractic or Naturopathy is to medicine. We have people running around with doctor degrees that represent questionable course content and philosophy of healing. In this case the healing of the soul.

Mental illness is not a sin caused problem other than being part of the physical curse of the fall as was my two time bout with Cancer. It is a medical problem with necessary medical treatment.

Of course we agree on items 1 through 3 as do all the Evangelical Psychologists that I know of. The Charismatics would also agree as would Wesleyans and Dispensationalists. However, these groups all have a differing view of the sanctification process. Nouthetic counseling is built upon the theology of the Reformed view of sanctification plus other additional concepts.