By sifilings
Feb
07
2014
"They understand 'ruling' to mean that elders make decisions for the congregation, and they understand 'obeying' to mean that the congregation knuckles under to those elder-made decisions. The question is whether this construal really does justice to the evidence."
Elders Rule! But Congregations Decide
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I would say that most
I would say that most conservative evangelicals that lean towards elders, are more aligned with elder led than elder ruled. Maybe I am in left field, but of those I interact with, it is more predominately elder led. With that said, I think that most people ignore the fact that in churches without elders, there are a significant number that are deacon ruled. Much more than most baptist would like to admit. Sure on paper it is congregational in polity, but in reality (where the rubber meets the road), many deacons have reached well beyond a biblical role, and have deacon boards or other types of government institutions that are ruling the church in a myriad of ways.
Apparently research is simply
Apparently research is simply a title in some employment capacities. Yet another word salad that failed to represent what he was arguing against. There is just so much wrong. The same errors were repeated. Saying something over and over is an attempt to make it true I suppose. After correcting the previous installments, I am afraid this is another case of why bother.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Why don't you put forth your view of church government ...
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Jim's Doctrinal Statement
dgszweda wrote:
This has been my observation as well. The deacons function as elders. Also of the elder led churches I have been a member of the congregation had as much (if not more) say in decisions than at the single elder/congregational church. I am sure there are many churches that this is not so. I am only talking about my experience.
I have struggled to
I have struggled to understand the expectation of scripture that elders rule well. It seems like we are doing mental gymnastics here with the word rule in the article. Dave Doran recently wrote on the same topic and included this excerpt about the meaning of rule:
Notice the and in that definition, there is both authority and influence in the word rule. I think there must be some middle ground between a dictator and the powerless "influence" Dr. Bauder describes. One extreme eliminates the congregation altogether, but the other seems to eliminate any authority from the "rule" of the elder leaving the congregation essentially autonomous.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
josh p wrote:
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Chip Van Emmerik wrote:
Three pointed at the buzzer...swish!
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Deacon Led"
"Deacon (or Board) led/ruled is a fact not often discussed in Baptist circles. It is not unusual to see deacons acting like elders and trustees acting like deacons. It is interesting to see what happens when some deacons hear a "Deacons have no authority in a local church" sermon. That kind of talk can get a pastor fired.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
Long time No See
Hey brothers, long time. Trust you are richly blessed in the glorious Lord Jesus Christ - !
Remember years ago we argued this topic back and forth (http://sharperiron.org/article/congregational-voting-biblical)?
Problem for Kevin and all you brothers who believe in congregational decisionalism is what Chip mentions above: "I see scriptural support for pastoral and congregational authority at work in the corporate body of believers, but no other leadership entity in the church." Given what you see, you're right, Chip. Ultimately though, who submits to whom?
The New Testament gives many precepts and examples for eldership, but advocates of congregational rule can only point to examples, usually Acts 6 and Acts 15. Yet both texts are better explained, imo, apart from votes.
But for the sake of argument, let's say Kevin is 100% correct in all he say and in his interpretation of all biblical texts. Let's also agree 100% with Kevin, that eldership churches are oppressive and led by men who crave domination (see his use of 1 Peter 5:3, for example).
Still, even if Kevin is perfectly true, the right way to develop the New Testament's own teachings is to examine its doctrines and practices that are clearly taught in both precept and example. That way we aren't carried along with every wind of doctrine like speaking in tongues, head coverings, and snake handling.
And since congregationalism has no NT precept (like those three practices), it fails this humble test.
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? for Ted Bigelow
Please list the process steps explaining how you became the pastor of your church. Thanks (I may have some very practical follow on questions)
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Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Jim wrote:
Jim - why? Just get to the questions. The New Testament is an open book.
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OK .. who appointed you the Pastor?
OK .. who appointed you the Pastor?
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Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Thanks, Jim.
In my case, it was sort of myself who "appointed" me. Then I, along with congregational testing and approval, appointed the other elders within several weeks. They have as much authority as I; I have no more than they.
As for my appointment, not a good way to do it, but a horribly sin-filled group of men and women caused it. We had about 100 people who left a church and no one was questioning me as to whether I was qualified. We had about 20 men who had been extensively trained to evaluate church leadership by 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1. That in small part caused the split.
Here's my position, though. If I had been less-than qualified my actions would have been high-handed sin against Jesus Christ. As for the other men who became elders, they were appointed by the qualification of Scripture. That process - how we did what we did - is probably what you want to evaluate/test for its merits. Good for you. May your tribe increase, Jim.
So too, when a congregation votes a man into pastorate/eldership/diaconate who is not qualified, it is the same high handed sin against Jesus Christ. The vote doesn't qualify a man to serve Jesus Christ any more than watching a Superman movie qualifies a man to fly.
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Ted Bigelow wrote:
I ask this sincerely. How do you know you are not "less than qualified"?
GregH wrote:
Greg - why do you ask?
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Ted, you rightly judged the
Ted, you rightly judged the exegetical skills in the presentation. You should have seen the other ones before it. It would at least help explain why it was as far off base as it was.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
We've yet to judge your exegetical skills ...
We've yet to judge your exegetical skills, because you've not yet put forth your ecclesiology
A request that I submitted earlier:
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Jim's Doctrinal Statement
Ted Bigelow wrote:In my case,
Actually, if you're a real pastor and not an hireling, then Jesus appointed you. A congregational vote or, as perhaps in your case, the congregation's acceptance of you in that position would have or actually confirmed that divine appointment.
This isn't that hard.
Ted Bigelow wrote:
I am a bit surprised that you don't want to answer questions about your own experience in being appointed to/accepted by your church since you obviously have very specific ideas about how it should be done. I may be wrong but what you describe above about your own situation breaks your own rules.
But leave all that aside. I am just very curious about how you know you are qualified to know if you are qualified to be a pastor. That is very interesting.
Ted
It looks to me your case is closer to that of a church planter. This as church planters go into an area and start a church from scratch without the benefit of a preexisting formal set of elders.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
Rob Fall wrote:
Hi Rob,
We had elders within a few weeks, but only because we had several qualified men. Sometimes we can forget 1 Tim. 3:6, "not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." It's a disservice to a young believer to put them in leadership, no matter what the polity.
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Disagreement from another congregationalist
While I do hold to congregational authority, I'm concerned that the article over-limits the pastors ruling function. προί̈στημι is also used in the qualifications when dealing with the pastor's family responsibilities. If the role of a father in "ruling/managing" his home is analogous to the pastor's role "ruling/managing" the church, can we really say that he is "ruling/managing" only through teaching and example? I'm sure we would agree that a father has a greater authority than teaching/example! If a pastor is fulfilling a similar role to a father, he must also be doing more than leading through teaching and example.
jhorneck3723 wrote:
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Novice??
Who said anything about the church planter being a novice? The ones I know personally spent time (years) in established churches before starting their plants. Further, I know of men who were serial church planters.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
Who said anything about the
Only was saying church planters, in their zeal for leaders, are tempted to see other men appointed who are too young for the office.
I too love church planting, where churches are not yet planted. I hope you enjoy this: "Planting Schism"
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From A California Perspective
Ted, please understand I write as a Californian. The Golden State is so church poor and\or Biblically illiterate. Schisms are the least of our worries.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
Rob Fall wrote:
I'd like to be in CA right now! Dealing with about 15" of the white stuff
Must agree with you, brother, about church poverty and biblical illiteracy. Question is, are you helping, or hindering?
If schism is the least of your worries, why does Paul take the first 4 chapters of 1 Corinthians to deal with it? It was more important than all the other problems in that church. Know why?
So a little quiz for you to see who owns the illiteracy. How many churches are there where you live, and how many are needed?
The Bible has a definite number. Do you know it?
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Pi?
Is it Pi?
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Jim's Doctrinal Statement
I live
In Northern San Mateo County, 15 miles south of San Francisco. I've been a member of and active in Hamilton Square Baptist Church of San Francisco http://hamiltonsquare.net founded in 1881. With its large and varied population, my immediate region could use at least 12 more good churches.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
my immediate region could use
OK. Now support that from Scripture (not to keep you going, but to make a point about biblical illiteracy).
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