Gluttony: The Socially Acceptable Sin

[pvawter]

Would anyone like to suggest a place in Scripture where some sort of ideal weight/bmi could be determined? How do we define what is overweight, apart from government defined standards?

Not everything is in Scripture. What is the ideal speed limit? Is this found in Scripture? Overweight is always going to be subjective, but we also all know what it looks like when we see it. Again, it is not about being on the borderline, it is about being excessive, and having sloppy discipline in one’s life.

The scriptures teach us that a spiritual person is disciplined, has self control, and seeks to grow in knowledge and improve himself. While unbelievers are described as having no self control, reckless, sensual, lovers of pleasure, lazy, etc. If a person looks at himself in the mirror, is excessively overweight, does not exercise, and is told by a doctor that his weight will cause him serious health issues, yet does nothing about it- which is he more like?

[christian cerna]

The scriptures teach us that a spiritual person is disciplined, has self control, and seeks to grow in knowledge and improve himself. While unbelievers are described as having no self control, reckless, sensual, lovers of pleasure, lazy, etc. If a person looks at himself in the mirror, is excessively overweight, does not exercise, and is told by a doctor that his weight will cause him serious health issues, yet does nothing about it- which is he more like?

There’s part of the rub. There are many people out there who would be considered overweight, but have a clean bill of health otherwise. Are the gluttons because they are genetically predisposed to carry more weight than others?

You are genetically predisposed to carry more weight? And how do you know this? Is it because you are on a strict diet and workout regularly, and still cannot lose weight?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

christian cerna wrote:

The scriptures teach us that a spiritual person is disciplined, has self control, and seeks to grow in knowledge and improve himself. While unbelievers are described as having no self control, reckless, sensual, lovers of pleasure, lazy, etc. If a person looks at himself in the mirror, is excessively overweight, does not exercise, and is told by a doctor that his weight will cause him serious health issues, yet does nothing about it- which is he more like?

emphasis added

There’s part of the rub. There are many people out there who would be considered overweight, but have a clean bill of health otherwise. Are the gluttons because they are genetically predisposed to carry more weight than others?

My brother is a body builder, exercises extensively and has very little fat, but his BMI is off the charts. At 240lbs and 5’ 10” his excessive muscle carries him way over. In addition, there are very skinny people (my 15 year old son) who can eat like crazy and never gain a single pound. There are people like me who struggle to keep weight off and have to work at it. The clean bill of health is irrelevant to gluttony and so is weight. But it holds more true that if someone is overweight, regardless of clean bill of health, he is consuming more calories at an excessive rate than his body needs. Overweight people who maintain their weight are essentially consuming calories to maintain their excessive weight.

My body, based on my metabolism and lifestyle, by itself struggles with weight. I went from 260lbs to 145lbs (in my 5’ 10” frame) by just reducing my caloric intake and moderate exercise (no fancy diet), but it took a lot of discipline (did it in about 5 months). Taking the weight off was easy, keeping it off is a struggle. I kept it off for about 5 years, but recently went up some and am working at bringing it back to about 150-160 lbs. Not only did I have more energy, but I felt considerably better. I finally came to the realization that blaming my weight on lifestyle, genetics, metabolism….. was just an excuse. I was at the end of the day fulfilling a weight because it 1) made me happy and 2) I was too lazy to do anything about it and 3) food made me feel good. Once it was off, I realized how much I was missing and how much I held my body back because of a sloppy lifestyle.

I would never say what weight is gluttonous or what impact it is on your spiritual life. We need to examine ourselves and hold ourselves accountable before God. I think truth be told, we know what overweight is and what gluttony is, and all too often we are great about making excuses. It saddens me when a 350lb pastor stands at the pulpit and laughs about how there is much more of him for God to love, or how being overweight is a Baptist tradition because we like to eat, while at the same time the pastor is in and out of hospitals and struggles to go up a pair of stairs. I can say this stuff because I struggle with this, have been there and done it, and have overcome it.

[dgszweda]

Not everything is in Scripture. What is the ideal speed limit? Is this found in Scripture? Overweight is always going to be subjective, but we also all know what it looks like when we see it. Again, it is not about being on the borderline, it is about being excessive, and having sloppy discipline in one’s life.

What does speed limit have to do with anything? Last time I checked, being overweight is not against the law (although with Obamacare, that may be coming). By all means, let’s encourage people to exercise self-control as a spiritual discipline, but let’s not pretend that some arbitrary, 21st century standard of ideal weight/bmi has any direct relation to the issue of gluttony.

[pvawter]

dgszweda wrote:

Not everything is in Scripture. What is the ideal speed limit? Is this found in Scripture? Overweight is always going to be subjective, but we also all know what it looks like when we see it. Again, it is not about being on the borderline, it is about being excessive, and having sloppy discipline in one’s life.

What does speed limit have to do with anything? Last time I checked, being overweight is not against the law (although with Obamacare, that may be coming). By all means, let’s encourage people to exercise self-control as a spiritual discipline, but let’s not pretend that some arbitrary, 21st century standard of ideal weight/bmi has any direct relation to the issue of gluttony.

This is why I specifically said that overweight is subjective. In addition, while you may not agree with something like the BMI standard, it is far from arbitrary. No matter where you draw the line, weight does have a direct relation to the issue of gluttony. If you are overweight, you are practicing some form of gluttony. But that doesn’t mean that only those overweight are gluttonous either.

[christian cerna]

Gluttony seems to be a sin that Christians like to ignore. We are often quick to label smoking and drinking as sins, but for some reason gluttony is accepted or at least tolerated…

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags.” Proverbs 28:7 declares, “He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father.” Proverbs 23:2 proclaims, “Put a knife to your throat if you are given to gluttony.”

The verses quoted here start to move us toward the crux of the debate: how does Scripture define gluttony? Interesting to note in these passages: where it is defined at all, it’s defined in terms of consumption, not in terms of result. “Gorge themselves” certainly doesn’t sound like your typical “a few too many calories+too little exercise+lots of time” scenario. Most people get overweight slowly because there is a relatively small calorie-intake vs. calorie-consumption ratio problem. Is this “gluttony” an any biblical sense?

Another scenario has to do with how much water a person retains. The stuff is heavy, and that part of the equation has nothing to do with calories at all.

Then you have bone density and muscle density. There’s a whole lot of really stupid discussion out there if you google “does muscle weigh more than fat?” (of course a pound is a pound, regardless; that’s not the question. Does x cubic centimeters of muscle way more than x cubic centimeters of fat? I think it probably does.)

In Scripture, “fatness” is usually associated with blessing. Not sure what that implies, but it’s a fact.

(If it matters from an ethos standpoint, I’m not quite “skinny” again yet, but my BMI is below 24.)

[dgszweda]

This is why I specifically said that overweight is subjective. In addition, while you may not agree with something like the BMI standard, it is far from arbitrary. No matter where you draw the line, weight does have a direct relation to the issue of gluttony. If you are overweight, you are practicing some form of gluttony. But that doesn’t mean that only those overweight are gluttonous either.

So, are you saying that gluttony is entirely subjective?
My point in even entering this discussion is that the conclusion that overweight people must be gluttons and are therefore sinful is overly simplistic and not Biblical. If we are going to discuss sin, then by all means, let’s discuss sin, but bodyweight and BMI do not factor in to whether or not a person’s behavior is sinful. Weight as a means of defining gluttony (and presumably therefore, sin) is not a Biblically defensible category, so suggesting that a person who carries around extra pounds (whatever that means, since the concepts of ideal weight and overweight are subjective) is ipso facto sinning is a faulty conclusion.

This problem with definition is exactly why gluttony is not a subject of more preaching. If lying is the topic, a lie is always a lie is always a lie. If adultery, the same - or stealing or any number of black and white issues. However, one thing this thread is proving is that you really can’t lay down a black and white line for gluttony.

Fat/obesity is not subjective. We all know a fat person when we see it; in the same way we know a fit person when we see it. Obesity is a very recent trend. Pretty much a health condition mostly seen beginning in the 20th century, due to junk food and lack of exercise.

I think gluttony is not mentioned more in preaching, because a greater number of people are obese(most likely including the preacher), therefore we do not wish to offend someone. Also, it is harder to become un-fat than it is to stop lying or stealing.

I think it is not mentioned more in good preaching because the pastor are preaching what is in the text (ie expository) and not some pet subject. The Biblical fact is outside of Proverbs gluttony is mentioned very little. Other than a few descriptive uses, it is not mentioned in almost all of the NT.

I think more than anything this discussion illustrates the level that cultural/societal influence, and in our culture primarily various media, has affected the thinking of the church and those that make up the church. Here we are discussing a matter that Scripture is absolutely silent about—not even a hint as to being right or wrong in any context, and barely mentioned at all (Eglon of Judges 3 fame and Eli in I Sam. 4:18 are the only mentionings to my knowledge)—in terms of judging sin in the life of an individual and whether or not a certain individual with a certain body type is qualified for ministry.

It is indisputable that our culture has raised attaining a certain body image to a borderline religious endeavor. The examples are too myriad to begin with, but the fact we are having this discussion at all should rest the case. If public nakedness is, indeed, a sure sign of societal idolatry (which I have mentioned in other threads as is likely indicated in Scripture) then this body image phenom is a primary idolatry of our culture, seeing as all the advertisements for achieving this image have as their goal that you can feel good about walking around practically naked (the proverbial bikini-body; 6-pack abs thing) without shame. Open the front page of any of the main online news-feeds (Fox; Yahoo; AOL; etc) if you doubt the veracity of my observation.

All that to say this—as believers and leaders in church, family, and community we more than ever need to guard ourselves and that which we have care over from the anti-scriptural influence of society that would deter us from the cause of Christ and being conformed to His image alone.

Gluttony and healthy living is emphasized in the pulpit by some preachers!!!!. I give you … The Daniel Plan!

I don’t know why, but every time I hear of a diet plan based on the Scriptures, I want to cringe.

You are wrong Lee. Gluttony is mentioned several times in the book of Proverbs, and even by the Apostle Paul himself. He calls the Cretans, lazy gluttons. Also he wrote, “Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)