"Stringent enforcement of 501(c)(3) could generate up to $16.75 billion in additional annual revenue - almost enough to fund NASA"

• “Are churches making America poor?” Answer: We are broke because we live in an era of entitlements. Even I want my social security benefits (that I hope to receive in 2 years). We are broke! We have borrowed from future generations to enjoy their wealth. We will crash … it’s just a matter of time. Did churches cause this? NO!
• On “up to $16.75 billion in additional annual revenue”. Answered by Dr Evil (Mike Myers):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKHSAE1gIs

–—

By the way the quote “It’s DR Evil to you …. I did not spend 6 years of studying to be called MR Evil” could nicely apply to ministry Doctors too!”

If you let the genie out of this bottle it will lead to state and local governments seeking property tax payments…

all because you don’t approve of Benny Hinn?

Personal testimony … how the housing allowance makes the Pastor different w regard to taxes:

I was a Pastor for 16 years. I enjoyed it … I took it .. I benefited by it

I lived in this house; 7017 S Fairfax St, Centennial, CO 80122; 4 beds, 2.5 baths, 2,236 sqft. Zillow says it is worth over $ 300,000

With the housing allowance and 3 kids …. not only did I pay no taxes but I received $$$ back from the government.

My next door neighbor (he has since moved as have I) was a deacon in my church. Imagine his income taxes (he worked for the telephone company)

Most congregants aren’t even aware of this benefit. It made me feel uneasy.

The reason these exemptions were originally included in the tax code was because Americans long held the belief that religion was an important part of our social fabric. While I am diametrically opposed doctrinally to Catholicism and Mormonism (to name only two prominent religions in America), I am absolutely convinced that an America filled with citizens sincerely practicing their religious beliefs is a better place than an entirely secular nation such as we see today in many European countries. I am sure no one honestly believes that everyone praying and reading scripture in public schools in the 1950’s was truly saved, but we frequently hear believers decry the downward trend in public schools since the removal of public prayer and Bible reading in the classroom. It had a social affect that was separate from the spiritual effect. Removing these exemptions only moves America further into the fully secular realm as a nation - something that I cannot fathom being good in any eternal or temporal sense.

501(c)(3) cuts both ways:

• True believers benefit from it …. and loss of the same would “hurt” (I say temporarily) us
• False religions benefit from it and would be hurt by the loss of it

Can we be honest with ourselves about “the government”:

• We (a collective “we”) don’t trust the courts
• We think the public schools are the devil’s schools
• We decry that the national parks promote evolution
• We see the secular college as bad for our chilren
• Etc …

But we (the church) are addicted to it:

• the 501(c)(3)
• The tax deductions for our contributions
• The property tax exemption
• The clergy housing allowance
• The Pell grants for our kids to go to Bible college

Maybe we should just look ourselves in the mirror and admit we are hypocrites!

Meanwhile evangelical churches in other countries have none of these kind of benefits

…

[Mark_Smith]

If you let the genie out of this bottle it will lead to state and local governments seeking property tax payments…

all because you don’t approve of Benny Hinn?

I think Jesus’ admonition to render unto Caesar has an indirect application here. Caesar’s tax system was corrupt. Jesus just paid the thing and moved on. He did not advocate for special treatment. He wisely answered (and paid), and His ministry could not be impugned.

He did not advocate for special treatment. He wisely answered (and paid), and His ministry could not be impugned.

Sean,

Acknowledging the benefits of a system long established is not the same thing as advocating for special breaks not already existing… If Caesar is going to give someone a break, I doubt Jesus pays double on principle.

“benefits”…I suppose that is the difference. I see the system long established as a net liability. The tax code is the vehicle of cronyism and special interest in America today. 501(c)(3) is used to force me to subsidize much more evil than good. I doubt Christ would have defended it.

Funny though. So many people are for eliminating the pork…until it is their ham.

[Sean Fericks]

[Jay] Nice trick. This ‘helpful’ idea serves two purposes - punishes speech that the Secular Coalition for America would oppose -AND- attacks the viability of religious institutions in general. But the government will make money! Woo Hoo! :-/

A revocation of special privileges should not be considered an attack on religious speech. It is merely the removal of an unjustly privileged position. Why should my tax dollars subsidize Benny Hinn in his false-gospel, abusive, vile campaign to enrich himself? Why should my tax dollars be used to subsidize the Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church as he insults the cause of Christ by traveling across America harassing the families of our fallen soldiers?

Sean, if the change were being implemented by the government, I could see your point. That being said, here is their mission statement:

Our member organizations are established 501(c)(3) nonprofits who serve atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers and other nontheistic Americans. Their purpose in founding the coalition was to formalize a cooperative structure for visible, unified activism to improve the civic situation of citizens with a naturalistic worldview. A number of additional organizations have endorsed our mission statement.

…The Secular Coalition for America is committed to promoting reason and science as the most reliable methods for understanding the universe and improving the human condition. Informed by experience and inspired by compassion, we encourage the pursuit of knowledge, meaning, and responsible ethical codes without reference to supernatural forces. We affirm the secular form of government as a necessary condition for the interdependent rights of religious freedom and religious dissent. We come together as national freethought organizations to cooperate in areas of mutual interest and to support each other in our efforts to uphold separation between government and religion for the benefit of all within the nontheistic community. As resources allow, we will actively cooperate in projects that support our position, with priority given to political action initiatives and public relations opportunities.

Yes, they say that they support rights for religious freedom and religious dissent. Color me skeptical.

That said, though - I agree with you in that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I think that most of our churches would not be able to continue without the 501(c)(3) exemption.

[Jay] I think that most of our churches would not be able to continue without the 501(c)(3) exemption.

Contrarian view (with initial observations):

• I hope the 501(c)(3) provisions continue (for many reasons … among which I enjoy the tax deduction for for charitable contributions!)
• I hope the property tax exemptions for church properties continues
• I hope (although as I indicated earlier in this thread I feel this is the least logical / defensible) the clergy housing allowance continues

If the US church needs this …. we are indeed the weakest of the world’s churches! And if this is so, losing these government ‘benefits’ are the least of our problems!

Jim,

With all due respect, I think a little historical context is needed to balance out your comments…

Until 1954, churches had NO 501(c)(3) restrictions and had total freedom to operate according to conscience.

To imply that churches are taking unfair advantage of the system now when they are living up to their end of these historically recent requirements is a little too much for me to concede…

If you want to go back further, until 1913 there was no deduction for charitable giving on income taxes. That is because there did not need to be. There was no permanent federal income tax until then, and free citizens had complete control over their own money.

If you want the IRS (even after the scandals of the past year) to exercise stricter requirements and greater control over churches, I’m really not sure how to answer that, except to say that you will probably get your wish some time soon.

But even before that, property tax exemptions for churches will be eliminated first (as people on the local level wrestle with the same question of why they are immediately subsidizing religion)—and churches will likely close by the thousands.

@Paul … you misrepresent me:

You said: ” … To imply that churches are taking unfair advantage of the system”

My response: I did not imply this.

You said: “If you want the IRS (even after the scandals of the past year) to exercise stricter requirements and greater control over churches,”

My response: “I hope the 501(c)(3) provisions continue … hope the property tax exemptions for church properties continues … I hope … the clergy housing allowance continues”

I think it should be eliminated and that we should have a flat tax that makes paying taxes about as complex as filling out a postcard.

http://www.heritage.org/research/factsheets/2012/01/the-new-flat-tax-encourages-growth-and-job-creation

I am not trying to misrepresent you… please forgive me to the extent I did.

I guess, however, I do not see the value in conceding anything to those who look at churches and see $$$ to help expand government spending that is already bloated beyond any wild fascist fantasy.

Put me down as 110% in favor of the ministry housing allowance for anyone who can qualify!