Do you believe sports or the love of money is the top idol in the American Bible-believing church, in your opinion?
Poll Results
Do you believe sports or the love of money is the top idol in the American Bible-believing church, in your opinion?
Sports is the number one idol, IMO Votes: 4
The love of money is the number idol, IMO Votes: 7
Neither of those are at the top of the idolatry list Votes: 8
Other Votes: 1
I think worship of Americana is at the top of the idol list. The willingness to uphold “old fashioned, American values” (no matter whether there ever was such a thing or not) is almost a sociological religion in conservative Christianity in America. It is idolatrous and wrong. I am patriotic, and I do love my country (I served in the military for 10 years). Even so, this patriotism reaches idolatrous levels in some churches; ironically, sometimes from Pastors who have never worn a military uniform in their lives …
Consider this excerpt from James Jeffers’ text, The Greco-Roman World, where he draws comparison between the cult of the Roman emperor and modern-day Americana:
The emperors’ use of this cult bears some resemblance to modern politicians’ identification with American symbols, such as the flag, the church, or even apple pie, as a way to gain the trust and respect of the citizens. For much of its existence, the United States has had an informal mixture of Protestant Christianity and patriotism, a so-called civil religion, that has had some of the impact and feel of the emperor cult. For example, this informal union gave political and economic notions such as individual liberty, democracy, and free enterprise a sacred or sacrosanct status, concepts that one may oppose at the cost of harsh criticism. The phrase ‘America, love it or leave it’ gives something of this flavor. (103).
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
Very good post Tyler
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
I do agree that the bundling of the flag with the cross is an issue, but what keeps most people from worshipping God, attending church, and growing in the Lord, is a different story. This may be a diversion, but most Christians I know who are not involved in the Kingdom as they should be (IMO) are involved in working too many hours because they can’t stop spending or they are too involved watching sports.
I would argue that “Americana” may corrupt our view of God (and syncretism ALWAYS occurs no matter what the culture), IMO it is not as much of an idol to as many.
"The Midrash Detective"
Ed,
I see what you are saying. But we have always used athletics as a way to build redemptive relationships. I believe are right about these both being a big issue. But I would also say Tyler has hit on something. Some are so patriotic that even whey they are in church, they are really not worshiping or giving God his due because of Americana.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
they can’t go to church on Sunday or Wednesday because they have got to go “Americana”…. I have heard they’ve got to go to work or go to the kids $5000/year soccer league though.
Now, maybe you are saying that when they are at church they are thinking of the flag more than the cross. Maybe, but I’ve never seen people that hard core about the country. Are you thinking of the claim that America was founded by God and is therefore a Christian country? Or the Patriot’s Bible, that sorta thing. Perhaps in certain areas of the country people equate being American with being Christian, but in Kansas my friend those days are long gone. Plenty of proud atheists and agnostics and self-professing pagans here.
[Mark_Smith]they can’t go to church on Sunday or Wednesday because they have got to go “Americana”…. I have heard they’ve got to go to work or go to the kids $5000/year soccer league though.
Now, maybe you are saying that when they are at church they are thinking of the flag more than the cross. Maybe, but I’ve never seen people that hard core about the country. Are you thinking of the claim that America was founded by God and is therefore a Christian country? Or the Patriot’s Bible, that sorta thing. Perhaps in certain areas of the country people equate being American with being Christian, but in Kansas my friend those days are long gone. Plenty of proud atheists and agnostics and self-professing pagans here.
You are right, Mark. An idol is often a good thing in moderation (like sports or being industrious) that is overdone. Some people do overdo Americana, but I would call that more SYNCRETISM, adding cultural elements to theology, rather than idolatry. I have seen a few people who make Americana an idol, like those who view the church as a means to a social or political end. In that sense, it is almost a form of humanism. But among the more conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists I hang around with, it is the over-doing of sports, bread-winning, and even television that is a greater distraction from knowing God better.
"The Midrash Detective"
I guess I would put them all on the same level. Don’t get me wrong, I have seen what you are talking about. My son is a 3 sport athelete in a public school, so I know what you are talking about. I was a wrestler, but my son never wrestled, because the younger kids wrestle only on Sunday.
As far as the work goes, there is a fine line there. In my area, there are many who are having to work on Sundays. Not because they are seekign overtime, but just to have a job. When someone gets in our local Walmart Distribution Center, they usually get the weekend shift - they work every Friday - Sunday. There is a difference from those people, and those who are taking overtime to buy the next toy.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
Most jobs that require working on Sunday are not high end jobs and the people I talk to that have to work at them don’t have a whole lot of options and would change the situation if they could find another one. The folks who chase the almighty dollar usually have occupations that don’t require them to be away from church on Sunday, unless it is a physician on call. I don’t know if “sports” is the main culprit, but “recreation” would be. People take long weekends often nowadays. Nothing wrong with occassionally doing it, but, for alot of folks, it is too frequent.
You all may be right to say that Americana never really hurts anyone, whereas love of money (or something else) can draw someone away from God. I’m willing to admit that, but it’s an issue that has particularly bothered me for years.
I suppose it is a matter of how you frame the issue …
I would never say, “Our country needs revival!” I would say, “We need to become serious about their faith!” I would never say, “Our country was founded on Christian values, but now … (insert sinister development here).”
It can reach the point where we end up working for the social good of our country, and not for God at all. We are working for the kingdom God is bringing about in eternity; not for America. There is a difference.
This is a pet peeve of mine, but I would argue that the subtle syncretism it can breed (in the right place with the right [meaning wrong!] Pastor) can produce a hyper-nationalistic Christianity that is foreign to the Scriptures.
It probably isn’t as pervasive an issue as money, I admit; or even as overtly harmful as money, but I thought I’d throw it out there.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]You all may be right to say that Americana never really hurts anyone, whereas love of money (or something else) can draw someone away from God. I’m willing to admit that, but it’s an issue that has particularly bothered me for years.
I suppose it is a matter of how you frame the issue …
I would never say, “Our country needs revival!” I would say, “We need to become serious about their faith!” I would never say, “Our country was founded on Christian values, but now … (insert sinister development here).”
It can reach the point where we end up working for the social good of our country, and not for God at all. We are working for the kingdom God is bringing about in eternity; not for America. There is a difference.
This is a pet peeve of mine, but I would argue that the subtle syncretism it can breed (in the right place with the right [meaning wrong!] Pastor) can produce a hyper-nationalistic Christianity that is foreign to the Scriptures.
It probably isn’t as pervasive an issue as money, I admit; or even as overtly harmful as money, but I thought I’d throw it out there.
I do completely agree with this, Tyler. I too am against upholding the illusion that we once had a Christian utopia here. Although moral values have gone down, massacring the Indians, enslaving the Blacks, and stealing land from Mexico is far from a godly nation.
"The Midrash Detective"
I am not against people working on Sunday who need to do so. In my view, that is far from idolatry. What I am against is people who make a good income and yet work, work, and work to the detriment of their spiritual well being and their church, whether on Sunday or not (so they can own a cabin on the lake or take a cruise twice a year). Folks that have high paying careers might be able to acquire these things without working 60 or 70 hours a week, and that would be a different story. If someone has to work long hours because they are forced to take a poor-paying jor or they have medical bills, etc., that is a very different situation.
"The Midrash Detective"
Love of Sports? … Love of Money?
Thought provoking conversation so far. So I ask myself … do I love sports? money?
Love of Sports: What does this look like? I get pretty excited about sports - almost all kinds but particularly college football and the NFL. At what point is it idolatry?
Love of Money: I am intrigued with investing and have a small brokerage account. I read about investments and check out the stock market daily. So what does love of $$ look like?
[Ed Vasicek]… [they] work, work, and work to the detriment of their spiritual well being and their church
You are aware that the so-called “9-5” 40 hour workweek is a modern thing. (and I always laugh about the 9 to 5 because I leave home shortly after 7 …. arrive home between 6 & 6:30 and daily eat at my desk. So my “9-5” is more like 7:45 to 5:45 or typically 50 hrs a week. In my business (Information technology) this is common
[Jim][Ed Vasicek]… [they] work, work, and work to the detriment of their spiritual well being and their churchYou are aware that the so-called “9-5” 40 hour workweek is a modern thing. (and I always laugh about the 9 to 5 because I leave home shortly after 7 …. arrive home between 6 & 6:30 and daily eat at my desk. So my “9-5” is more like 7:45 to 5:45 or typically 50 hrs a week. In my business (Information technology) this is common
Yes, I am aware of this. But in the past work might vary more with the seasons, families worked more together, and work was more therapeutic. Everything took longer and one accomplished less, but it was not typically as high-intensity as is now possible with technology. The industrial revolution occurred relatively recently and was not the norm for most of history. It was after the Industrial Revolution that real work abuse began (excluding slaves, of course), and then unions eventually rose up to counter that abuse.
The old timers have said this to me, “Years ago, people would say, ‘In my spare time I do this or that,’ but the phrase ‘spare time’ has disappeared from our vocabulary.”
"The Midrash Detective"
Perhaps
I personally observe that the larger churches hire, hire, hire rather than rely on volunteers.
On the “love of money” … this illustrates it
[Jim]Jim,This isn’t particularly earth-shattering information, but for myself, I look at potential idols (sports isn’t mine) in this way:Am I making time for X, but not making time for prayer, Bible-reading, church, etc.? Do I find myself thinking about X during the time I make for spiritual activities?Am I spending $ on X to the point where I don’t have to give when we have visiting speakers, special missions projects, etc.? Am I neglecting family and other spiritual priorities to make more $ (not talking about paying necessary bills here) to spend on whatever?If the answer to the above questions is yes (for me at least), then those things are becoming idols.And on Tyler’s thoughts, I know where he is coming from. I can remember many a “patriotic service” where even though it didn’t seem we were worshiping country more than God, it certainly seemed as if in some way we were conflating the two. As a kid, that didn’t bother me. It does a lot more now. (And I say that as one who, although I didn’t serve in the military, my Dad did. Love for country and duty have always been emphasized in my family, and I can still “tear up” when hearing the Star-Spangled banner. I still love my country, but like Jesus said about hating family, my love for my country should not come anywhere near love for God.)Love of Sports? … Love of Money?
Thought provoking conversation so far. So I ask myself … do I love sports? money?
Love of Sports: What does this look like? I get pretty excited about sports - almost all kinds but particularly college football and the NFL. At what point is it idolatry?
Love of Money: I am intrigued with investing and have a small brokerage account. I read about investments and check out the stock market daily. So what does love of $$ look like?
Dave Barnhart
[pvawter] I When the pastor (me) gets long winded on a Sunday morning, you can almost feel the nervous tension as the clock ticks past kickoff. Idolatry? I think you could make a case for it.
I think it is wise to have a stated ‘terminus ad quem’ for services and for speakers to work within that parameter.
Here in Minnesota when the Vikings stink (most years) many are Pack fans
[Jim][pvawter] I When the pastor (me) gets long winded on a Sunday morning, you can almost feel the nervous tension as the clock ticks past kickoff. Idolatry? I think you could make a case for it.I think it is wise to have a stated ‘terminus ad quem’ for services and for speakers to work within that parameter.
Here in Minnesota when the Vikings stink (most years) many are Pack fans
Jim,
if you read my comment with the proper voice inflection you will get the joke. =)
Our services end at almost the same time every week, it just happens that the game kicks off 15 minutes before we are done.
The Oakland Raider fans are perhaps the most ‘pagan’
Example
The Apostle Paul was a huge sports fan.
Look at all of the sports analogies he uses, especially in his letters to the church at Corinth.
Go Cards
Go Bears
Idols in America:
1. Products (Cars, Electronics, Clothing, Fast Food, etc)
2. Entertainment (TV, Movies, Pop Music, Sports, etc)
3. Politics (People are more zealous to defend their political party then they are to defend their religion. Example, an atheist makes fun of Christianity, and you don’t get much reaction from a crowd. But let someone make fun of Obama, or Democrats, and watch an argument break out.)
4. Sex
Christian,
I would also say that people do put politics above God even on “our side.” For years Greg Boyd touted the heresy of open-theism in his church and no one batted an eye. But when he indicated he might vote for O’bama people left in droves. I am no fan of this President. But, open-theism is worse by far, yet this church ignored it. I have seen that happen a lot in my life - putting conservative politics above doctrine. Sad form of idolatry.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
[Easton]The Apostle Paul was a huge sports fan.
Look at all of the sports analogies he uses, especially in his letters to the church at Corinth.
Go Cards
Go Bears
I do not know that anyone is suggesting that being a sports fan is a bad thing. I think we all agree that anything — no matter how good — can become an idol.
"The Midrash Detective"
[christian cerna]Idols in America:
1. Products (Cars, Electronics, Clothing, Fast Food, etc)
2. Entertainment (TV, Movies, Pop Music, Sports, etc)
3. Politics (People are more zealous to defend their political party then they are to defend their religion. Example, an atheist makes fun of Christianity, and you don’t get much reaction from a crowd. But let someone make fun of Obama, or Democrats, and watch an argument break out.)
4. Sex
I like this broad category list.
"The Midrash Detective"
I was saved out of a background of sports fanaticism (Green Bay Packers, but also local sports) and was somewhat of a participant. As a pastor in the Upper Midwest, love of money doesn’t come into play. We live in a very low income area. I’ve gone to great lengths to make sure I wasn’t giving my love to sports, though I still follow casually. We also don’t want to teach our kids not to love anything. But the greatest problem is self-centeredness. Yes, our faith is a personal faith. However, we are to teach our roles in a body (church, family, etc.) and not primarily self-centered living.
The toughest enemy is the one I look in the mirror every morning!
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