2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people...?

[Jim]

It’s not allegorical to say:

• At the dedication of the Temple
• Solomon did and said …
• Solomon prayed
• God’s glory filled the Temple
• The people worshipped
• At the end of the feast, Solomon privately prayed
• God answered and promised
• 2 Chron 7:14 …

^^^^

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That’s exegesis

Here’s a takeaway from this text … We must commit our way to the Lord and he will bless us (Psalm 1) for our dedication

^^^^

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That’s application

Do you believe your “takeaway” is the intent of either the human or Divine author of the passage? I think you have many verses in scripture, particularly in the NT but not exclusively, that were intended to convey this very idea to us. I don’t think this passage is on the list. I left a church some years back when the new pastor made a habit of teaching thins that were theologically sound in themselves but not derived from the passages he was using (among other problems). This was one of three items I detailed, first to him and then in a letter to the deacons, explaining why I was leaving. Why not use the passages that were clearly intended for the purpose you desire instead of stretching something that doesn’t fit?

Jim,

How would your application work in other passages like Deuteronomy 7:2? Would you tell believers we should have annihilated the Iraqi’s once we conquered their army? Or maybe an everyday takeaway like you used in 2 Chronicles, so believers should not just complete a financial victory against opposing companies, but they should also utterly destroy any company God permits them to overcome in business and wipe their “citizens” (i.e. employees) off the face of the earth completely? This is where I am struggling. How do you decide which statements from God given to specific people in specific circumstances with specific conditions and specific outcomes you can borrow and which ones you cannot?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Jim,

How would your application work in other passages like Deuteronomy 7:2? Would you tell believers we should have annihilated the Iraqi’s once we conquered their army? Or maybe an everyday takeaway like you used in 2 Chronicles, so believers should not just complete a financial victory against opposing companies, but they should also utterly destroy any company God permits them to overcome in business and wipe their “citizens” (i.e. employees) off the face of the earth completely? This is where I am struggling. How do you decide which statements from God given to specific people in specific circumstances with specific conditions and specific outcomes you can borrow and which ones you cannot?

Chip, with respect, I don’t think this advances your argument. Deut 7:2 would be just like dietary laws. We have a clear command from Christ to love our enemies, and do good to them, just as we have His clear word that all foods are clean.

Wayne, Israel also had commands to love their neighbors which were suspended in this instance. The point remains that we have a definitive word from God. How do you tell which ones you can “grab” for today and which ones you cannot? If you like, we can use any direct statement by God as the example. How about Joshua 3:8? Should we all go stand in the middle of the Jordan for God to reveal His hand on our lives? The point is the same since we are all priests today.

You might try out that “Jordan” thing, Chip, and soon find out that God doesn’t work that way on a regular basis. The NT also makes it sufficiently plain that we are not to physically destroy our enemies, but rather to pray for them, forgive them, and do good unto them. That seems to show the difference between what God commanded Israel to do toward certain populations and how we are in treat them. How do you know which to take literal and which not to take literal? Well, a direct command to an individual or a people that bears the stamp of divine pronouncement would be a guideline. Take for example Paul’s advice to Timothy to “take a little wine for they stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities” not to be a general permission to use alcohol. Dr. Ironside used to say that to base permission for alcohol consumption on that verse would require (1) that your name be Timothy, and (2) that you suffered from dysentery that might result from impure water. Most people understand that such a specific guidance is not intended for general consumption. Follow the tenor of Scripture. How did the principals in each case understand it? Are there Scriptures that provide additional guidance and wisdom principles. For example, it is generally understood that dipping seven times in the Jordan River does not cure leprosy. A little common sense provides insight. I didn’t say that knowing when to apply a passage is always easy or foolproof.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

Wayne, Israel also had commands to love their neighbors which were suspended in this instance. The point remains that we have a definitive word from God. How do you tell which ones you can “grab” for today and which ones you cannot? If you like, we can use any direct statement by God as the example. How about Joshua 3:8? Should we all go stand in the middle of the Jordan for God to reveal His hand on our lives? The point is the same since we are all priests today.

Chip, I have a high regard for you, but you usually argue so much more effectively. Jesus’ command to love one’s enemies goes beyond the command to love one’s neighbor. But let’s stay with Deuteronomy since you chose that example. You yourself pulled Deut 7:2 out of context since it addresses specific peoples to be destroyed by Israel (7:1). Even in Deuteronomy, the command in chapter 7 is not the normative means of war. That is given in chapter 20, and actually, historically speaking, that has been closer to actual practice among Christian nations. The law is holy. righteous and good, and it is from God. It is His wisdom for a holy society. Israel was called for a specific purpose, absolutely. The church is not a nation, but sometimes by God’s grace, Christianity has great sway over nations through leaders and elected representatives. When looking for national guidance, the Old Testament gives principles of godly governance. It is entirely reasonable for godly people in power in the church age to draw principles from the Old Testament.

Do you think God would not forgive and bless a land whose people repented of their sins and turned to Him?

Mentioning Joshua 3:8 is kinda silly. Obviously the command is referring to a one time historical event. Any reader would understand that, and that’s why a text like that is not used as a general principle as 2 Chron 7 often is. 2 Chron 7 is setting forth a normative prinicple…for Israel, yes, but does that mean there is no point of application to other nations or peoples? I don’t think so.

I agree with you we cannot “claim” promises made to Israel. It is obvious the church has a different purpose than Israel, the church not having a national identity. But are there principles to inform us about how God acts in the world? Certainly! Paul says these things were written for our instruction. I know I’m not going to persuade you about this. I get the impression you have a bee in your bonnet over this application issue…so much so you left a church over it. But I think you should give a little more grace to those who make fair application of Old Testament texts based on righteous principles and God’s revealed character.

First Wayne, you are right. This was a half-hearted attempt to make my case. I am trying to keep up with the thread in snatches at work, and I am talking small steps farther and farther afield confident that my point was clear. Sorry about that.

Let’s rewind back past my poor, misguided examples to the original topic. I do think God would be pleased by a nation experiencing revival. I don’t think you can apply 2 Chron 7:14 to America as a nation or individuals on their own. It doesn’t teach that. It is a specific directive with a specific promise made to a specific group. It is not a principle message, but a clear, specific message. I don’t see America anywhere in prophesy, so I don’t believe America will be healed and restored even if a national revival does take place. That’s just one reason why this verse doesn’t fit with this application. All I am saying is that we ought to preach what each text actually says. If you want a redemptive message, find a redemptive passage, and save this one for it’s intended message.

That is a gracious response. I agree that we should not regard ourselves as a covenant nation, but I see throughout Scripture that God judges Gentile nations on principles of righteousness. “Righteousness exalts a nation, and sin is a disgrace to any people.”

I just think it’s fair to draw the conclusion that if the recording of judgments on Israel are given “for our instruction” (1 Cor. 10:11), then a record of national repentance is for our instruction as well. That’s all.