Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary to launch extension campuses in Concord, Burlington and Atlanta

Jim,

Welcome to the party friend. Fun to hear a small bit of your sojourn at Moody - I would love to hear more of your story some time. Yes I apologize for one of my many botched spellings. Just for an fyi - because of my spelling “issues” (along with other challenges for which I continue to strive for improvement) - I happily lead the “remedial wing” of SI. They’ve given us some cool hats! There are three of us - yes we have issues but at least we are happy……..and chosen!……..and for the most part harmless…….:)

Straight Ahead bro!

jt

Men like Wm. Carey, Francis Wayland and C.H. Spurgeon represent the strain of Particular Baptists who followed the influence of Andrew Fuller. This was a break in the late 18th century from the thinking represented by John Gill. Today, Gill’s thinking is represented by the Primitive Baptists.

[G. N. Barkman]

Just for the record, William Carey (the Father of Modern Missions), was a five point Calvinist.

Jim’s perceptions, although all to common, are rather skewed. Most of the Calvinists I know are very missions minded. Many put non-Calvinists to shame in their zeal for, and giving to the cause of world-wide missions.

Don’t believe what anti-Calvinists say about Calvinists. Study both the Scriptures, and Calvinism for yourself. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Having served as a church-planter in England during the “last century” (‘85-”93), I had a little opportunity to know some Particular Baptists. It was then that I discovered their “strange” view of perseverance. I had always thought this doctrine meant that the truly saved will persevere to the end. I discovered they believed it meant you had to persevere to the end to know that you were truly one of the elect. Maybe that was a degeneration of belief from Spurgeon’s time. My confusion with Spurgeon has always been that you can get about any viewpoint you want from the vast array of sermons that are published. Seems like people cite Spurgeon to support various views, which I surmise results from taking him out of context.

I know lots of Particular Baptists, both in America, and some in England. I don’t think I have ever met one who believed it is impossible to know if one is elect, that is, to have a Biblical basis for assurance of salvation. However, they do believe there is a difference between “perseverance” and “assurance.” Those who are truly saved will persevere even if they lack strong assurance. Some who are not truly saved may have a false assurance based upon an evangelistic “decision” without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. It is perseverance in Biblical faith, empowered in God’s people by His Spirit, which, over time, separates Biblical assurance from spurious assurance. In other words, perseverance is an important factor in Biblical assurance, and helps to keep us from unholy presumption.

Assurance as a biblical doctrine is based upon faith and hope in God’s statements about salvation, i.e.in a God who cannot lie. It does not stand upon one’s perfection or sinlessness. I may know that I am a child of God and eternally saved by trusting in God’s promises, not by trusting in my own sanctification. A person may know he is a child of God even when he has failed in his Christian life. God does not disown him, even though He may chastise him. Even the chastisement is a token of son-ship. My Particular Baptist friends in England seem to confuse assurance with perseverance. They rest their eternal salvation upon proof of their perseverance to the end of their lives. Admittedly, they may not be representing well the doctrine of their own faith.

Moderator note ...

Particular Baptists / Assurance / etc is really far and wide from this forum topic.

I do not intend to redact or edit any previous posts but let’s get back to the original topic which is

Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary to launch extension campuses in Concord, Burlington and Atlanta

Jim,

The president of DBTS for many years was Dr. Rolland McCune. McCune taught an unlimited atonement provided for the whole world, but a limited application to genuine believers. On depravity he taught that the inability was moral not physical or intellectual, that election was not conditioned upon anything intrinsically good in mankind, that the true calling to salvation was effectual, that perseverance and preservation were inseparable. The basis of God’s election is neither arbitrary nor incompatible with the sum total of all of God’s divine attributes. If anyone other than the one true and living God was the author of election, then I could understand why the truth would be rejected. Since God is infinitely great and infinitely good, election is not inconsistent with the free and sincere offer of the gospel to all people. We have to live with the tension without denying each and every man’s responsibility to repent/believe and God’s sovereign right to save.

SI wishes to end this discussion. So be it, but there is more that could be said.

Jim,

Hey my brother - don’t give up. The mod’s are just saying they want to protect the original intent of the thread. They are not suggesting you give up your thoughts or point. Here is a suggestion - re-word your point and start a separate thread - My guess is you have a legitimate question or set of questions that connect some of these issues you have raised.

I’m a loyal DBTS alumn - and I have no problem you wanting to ask questions about what we have been taught or what we have stood for over the years. Bring it on bro! btw…….I’m not even offended if you disagree with a plank or two of what we DBTS grads or even where the institution has stood. We’ve heard all of this before and frankly as long as we go back and forth with grace - I think these exchanges can be helpful.

Blessings!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Jim,

Joel is right. The topic of Calvinism, etc. is not taboo — we just want to try to keep different threads separate. If you would like to continue your conversation on perserverence, assurance, etc., please feel free to open another thread.

Mod Note:

[jimcarwest]

SI wishes to end this discussion. So be it, but there is more that could be said.

The myth of “end of discussion”: Mods receive this criticism from time to time. Reminder: Any member may open virtually any thread at any time. Please don’t blame mods for trying to keep threads on track.

By ending my comments, I was simply responding to the Moderator’s reminder that we had gone far afield from the topic of the article, which was about DBTS. I am sure we will find many other opportunities on SI to discuss these other subjects. I’ll wait for those opportunities and not abuse the way the Moderator wants to direct the blog.

[jimcarwest]

By ending my comments, I was simply responding to the Moderator’s reminder that we had gone far afield from the topic of the article, which was about DBTS. I am sure we will find many other opportunities on SI to discuss these other subjects. I’ll wait for those opportunities and not abuse the way the Moderator wants to direct the blog.

The “Particular Baptists, Assurance, 5 point Calvinists, Missions, etc.” thread.

You may also talk about any school there … DBTS, et cetera

Proof that Jim or S/I not trying to end the debate

http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-particular-baptists-assurance-5-poi…

It is ironic that this was announced less than a week from Calvary Baptist Seminary announcing that they are closing after this coming school year. Glad Detroit can expand and sorry to see Calvary go. I am finally going to finish my MA at Calvary. Better to get it done now before I can’t.

Would Calvary Baptist Church in Lansdale, PA be willing to facilitate one of Detroit’s extension centers by August of next year?