"Do not be surprised when God leads you down a path that makes no earthly sense"

Context..the great savior!

I realize the context, I just disagree with it.

[Mark_Smith]

What I am saying is I reject the view that we have the Word of God, so you’re on your own when it comes to decisions! Where should I go to college? Well, read Proverbs and ask Dad and a teacher, and choose what you want to do…That just seems odd to me. Incomplete. Whom should I marry? Pick any godly girl and start making babies! Really?

I guess why I reject some of this view is it depends entirely upon what I want to do. For people who say I have nothing to do with salvation to turn around and say the ball is in my court for the rest of my life just seems odd, doesn’t it?

start with your kids. Tell them not to expect too much. School’s too hard. Aim low. Math is too hard…etc.

That is a big question, and I can’t answer it right now. The conventional wisdom of the heavy authors is no…but I’m not convinced. I however cannot write a PhD thesis on it right now to contereact it all.

is people thinking as long as they are saved, living a good clean life, etc. they can simply do whatever they want and its all good with God. I don’t believe that. It bothers me that these books are saying to not even WONDER what God’s will might be!!! Just take scriptural wisdom, godly counsel, and mix in a little prayer (but not expecting to hear from God in that prayer…whatever that means) and do what seems right.

Why is it wrong, when faced with a major decision, or even a small one, to talk to your Father. Hey, Dad, what is the best house to buy? What major should I pick? Should I wear the read underwear or the blue…(that’s just to throw you all off…;-))

For me, my father died when I was young. I barely knew him. I was saved at 19. Very early I read that God was the Father to the fatherless. I picked up on that. I have no earthly father. Why can’t I ask God for direction and wisdom. I think He does give it. It is scary to think people believe God is too big or too silent to help directly with decisions. I am not saying I hear a voice. Never have. But I often do have scripture verses pop in my head during prayer…or pictures of situations, or ideas.

I think a problem is calling things like this “revelation”. It scares off people. It is just prayer…at least in my understanding.

Mark, you misunderstand what I am saying. I am saying that we should use the talents we have, not the ones we don’t have.

American media/culture perpetuates the idea of trying to achieve the American Dream… getting rich, living in a mansion, driving a shiny sports car, marrying a swimsuit model, traveling the world, etc. But for most people, it just doesn’t work that way. Most Americans live poor to modest lives, doing mundane things, working their 8 to 5, etc…

As Christians we have to decide what our priorities are in life. Are they material or spiritual?

Both the Friesen and DeYoung books are good, and their bottom line is the same. The Friesen book is longer, more dense, and absolutely loaded with scripture. I would encourage those here who are skeptical of the approach as described here to read the book, because it is a Bible-saturated argument — including dealing with many passages (perhaps every passage?) that are often taken as teaching the “traditional view.”

The DeYoung book is shorter, more conversational, more personal. It does cite scripture, but it is not an extended or in-depth treatment as Friesen’s book is. It is perfect for high school or college students coming up on graduations and college and career decisions. I gave copies to my two oldest sons as the oldest one approached college graduation.

Also, many here are confusing the sovereign will of God (what has happened and what will happen because He has decreed that it will happen, which we may or may not know in advance), the moral or declared will of God (what He has told us in the Bible about how we’re supposed to live), and the individual will of God (per the traditional view, the “dot” that is “the center of God’s will” that we are responsible to divine through various methods, including internal prompting and internal peace). Friesen strongly affirms the first and second. There is no question that God has a sovereign will for every aspect of every individual’s life. The (sometimes contentious) issue is whether He holds us responsible to figure out that sovereign will in advance, either in every decision (the logically necessary position) or at least in the “big” decisions (the more workable position).

There are many consequences or implications of one view over the other. As Greg Linscott pointed out above, the traditional view can be used/abused to rationalize divorce if you clearly had sinful motives or other flaws in your seeking of God’s will before marriage (i.e., you didn’t pray enough, or at all). The wisdom/sovereignty approach would say that the fact that you’re married to that woman is conclusive proof that she is, in the sovereign will of God, your “soul mate” and that you’d better work on the marriage if you’re not happy in it. Another similar consequence is that you do not permanently place yourself in God’s “Plan B” (or C-Z) by “missing His will” in your choice of college, job, church, etc. You’re allowed to leave the ministry as something other than a quitter or a failure if you come to a place in your life where that is necessary or Biblically wise. And so forth.

Mark, I agree with you. I do believe that God is involved in everything that happens in the Universe. I believe that he guides our steps in life via his Spiritual influence in our being. Every thing we experience in life helps to mold us and make us who we are, and makes us stronger. As I stated earlier, there would be no purpose in praying for anything, unless we knew that God answers our prayers, and will either guide us, or guide others to help us. How can we really experience peace, if things happened purely by chance?

By personal experience, I can say that, when I have sought God with all my heart, and have remained in prayer and communion with him, my life has been more… Good. I am at peace, I have great joy, I am filled with love for others, I find myself surrounded by godly friends, I can easily resist and recognize temptation, I get along with coworkers, etc. But when I have not sought God, it has been the opposite. Everything goes Bad. I find myself not having peace, I feel depressed, I start to hang out with people who are a bad influence on my life, I start getting into trouble at work, I fall into temptation, I face failure after failure, poor decision after poor decision, etc.

When we seek God, and ask for his help, he guides our steps so that we walk along the path of righteousness.

Usually we don’t understand why things happen as they do. But later in life, when we look back at our lives, we can see that God was there guiding our decisions the whole time. Whether good or bad, he allowed things to happen as they did for our own good, so that we could learn to trust him. That is how our faith grows. When we finally learn to trust God because we have seen his work in our lives. We learn patience because we see that he always provides at just the right time.

The mistake some of people here are making, is to try to say Christianity cannot be something we experience, cannot be subjective. To make it seem as if it is a purely intellectual religion. But that is wrong. Christianity is something we experience. Of course, it is based on truth, yet nonetheless each one of us can experience God’s provision.

DeYoung says “What I am saying is that we should stop thinking of God’s will like a corn maze, or a tightrope, or a bull’s-eye, or a choose-your-own-adventure novel.” I agree! How about we think of it as a relationship with God. He is my Father. He desires to help me. Jesus died for my salvation. The Holy Spirit came to live in me. The Bible was given to me to know who and what God is, etc. How about I get to know Him? He isn’t a jack-in-the-box that I crank and a clown with a clue pops out! Get to know Him and He will guide you in decisions, sometimes through scripture, sometimes through asking advice, sometimes…yes sometimes through surprising situations and set-ups.

I appreciate that. The Christian life is intellectual and experiential. So many fundamentalists are walled off to any experience…afraid of it. And many others are all experience and no intellect. That is bad too.

Just the other day a friend was lost in a major metro area going to a conference. They were driving at 1am at 50 mph down a major road in a REALLY BAD part of town…and honestly a little afraid and tired after a long day of driving. They had no idea where they were and couldn’t find a way to get on course to the school where the conference was. Just then, at 50 mph, a car pulled up next to them, driving down the road, rolled down the window (it was a 50 something black woman), asked if they were lost and where they were headed. They said the school name. The woman said follow me and they followed her to the school. She never slowed down when they got there.

Providence and direct action by God to those He loves. I’m sorry if you disagree, but that would never happen without God. He cares and wants to help.

I agree Mark. We worship the same God that Abraham worshipped. The same God that worked miracles through the Apostles. No where in Scripture does it say that God has stopped speaking to his people or doing miracles among them.

that God can and does guide and use unbelievers as well. So I don’t think we can argue that only Christians can be lead by God…it’s broader than that.

Scriptures - Pharaoh in Egypt, 1 Kings 12:15, others. I’ll look them up later.

I agree with Jay. The reason we have trouble understanding that God is active in all our lives, is because we forget that God also lifts up and gives good gifts to unbelievers as well. When anyone experiences anything good in this life, it comes through the grace of God. God chooses to lift up some nations, and bring others down. He lifts some men to positions of power, while bringing others to their knees.

God is a God of order and justice. He is not like a clock maker who builds a clock and winds it up and sits back and lets the thing run on its own. Reading the story of Job helped to remind me of how great and powerful God is, and that it is impossible for us to understand all of his ways.

Matthew 6-

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

1. Are the lilies blooming every year a direct act of God, or evidence of providence? is there a difference?

2. Jesus revealed to Peter that he would deny him three times. In one sense, this was God’s plan for Peter. Would it be accurate to say that this was God’s will for Peter to deny his Lord? Did God make Peter sin?