"Does Charles Spurgeon represent 'Cultural Fundamentalism?'”

Cindy,

First, welcome to SI. :D

Second, I don’t know if it is exactly true that “no one cares.” Recent personal experience tells me that there are still people- some who weren’t even raised in American Fundamentalism- who care about issues like this. I have two young couples in their twenties who have become a part of our church from more broadly Evangelical backgrounds, with much different music expression than our traditional worship. One couple has specifically told me that the traditional music was an attractant in their migration from an E-Free setting. The wife of the other couple has dived headlong into getting involved in the music ministry, playing her violin and singing in the choir. We’ve had in the last year 3-5 couples and families who either were newly saved or coming from broader backgrounds (but older than their twenties) that are finding the hymns quite enriching.

On top of that, we have a tribal group of refugees from Burma who have come to our town, increasing our attendance by a third or more. They came to this country already professing faith in Christ, and to this town looking for a Baptist church in which to find fellowship (They were evangelized initially by Adoniram Judson). One of the things they were most excited about when they found us, and one of the best connecting points we have across the language barrier, is hymn singing. They have a small collection of English hymns translated into their language- one copy you can see is here: http://issuu.com/mbaoc/docs/karen_hymnal They very much cared and were encouraged to find us using the music we do. Even evangelicals are beginning to realize that traditional ways of doing church retains a degree of effectiveness in today’s world (see http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/04/12/dont-throw-out-your-nice-suit-just-yet/).

This conversation you’ve stumbled upon may seem pointless to you. I don’t think it is, though. One thing I would observe is that conversations like this can be helpful to people with conflicting views and practices to realize there are areas in which they can cooperate while still retaining some of their strongly held practices, to recognize that someone may utilize different methodology than you do (and may even be wrong in doing so), yet still be used of God for His glory and the building of His church.

Don’t know if any of that helped, but there you go. I will say that if conversations like this one tend to discourage you, SI probably won’t be “your thing.” There’s a lot of that here. :D

[CindyZ] We don’t care about music, and all these other fringe “personal separation” issues. Those of us who still are claim Christianity (many were turned off from Christianity entirely by the blatant hypocrisy), believe in the Bible and real doctrinal issues. But you lost those other battles years ago, when we were kids, and we knew all that other stuff was nothing more than (sorry) dumb man-made rules. So, honestly, you can argue about music all day if that’s what you enjoy…but you lost most thinking young Christians long ago on these types of issues.

Hi Cindy -

The blatant hypocrisy you witnessed is exactly why I think we need to talk about these issues. For too many years, the kinds of norms in the culture of fundamentalism have gone unchallenged and, in some cases, became more important than the teaching of Scripture. Those kinds of attitudes need to be challenged. If I can convince (and the Spirit can convict them) that their culture was more far important to them than the Scripture ever is/was, and they change as a result of that conversation, then my time will not have been wasted.

[Greg Linscott]

On top of that, we have a tribal group of refugees from Burma who have come to our town… They came to this country already professing faith in Christ, and to this town looking for a Baptist church in which to find fellowship (They were evangelized initially by Adoniram Judson).

Dude, I had no idea Burmese people lived to be that old :)

I’m in the process of reading The Juvenilization of American Christianity. It’s enlightening to me, especially in understanding why/how adults (like me) have come to some of the opinions we now hold or used to hold. I’m only a couple chapters into the book, but thus far the author has shown that the emphasis on the youth culture and on appealing to youth (which began in the 1920s) by using “worldly” methods — sanitized, of course, did not create stronger Christians, but instead “subtly changed the content of the faith that was being communicated.” The author then wrote that the type of person this created was “passive consumers with poor critical thinking skills.” Ouch!

The book details the early “culture” of fundamentalism regarding it’s attitude toward youth. There wasn’t agreement among fundamentalists and the co-opting of “worldly” things in the 20s and 30s just as their isn’t agreement today. However, we can and perhaps should still discuss such things — maybe it will help us develop the critical thinking skills that we are supposedly lacking. These types of things do affect the faith and are important.

[BryanBice]

Dress that is distinct from the world isn’t cultural. It’s biblical…

I’m seriously curious about this. How does one do this on a consistent basis if….

1) I work on a factory assembly line

2) I work for a law firm in downtown Chicago

3) I’m a server in a restaurant

4) I’m on the golf course

5) I’m a spectator at a baseball game

6) I’m playing in a baseball…basketball…football game

7) I’m out to dinner with my wife

8) Etc. Etc. Etc.

I recently began serving as chaplain to a local manufacturing firm that employs over 125 workers. Prior to taking this position, I knew only two of the employees. My basic job is to go to the worksite for a couple hours a week, touch base with each employee for a moment or two, and see if anyone wants to discuss a problem, need, etc. The relevance to this thread/post is that all of the office personnel dress essentially the same: business casual attire. All of the workers in the manufacturing areas also dress essentially the same—jeans, t-shirts/sweatshirts, etc. There is absolutely no way to tell who the Christians were by their dress (well, except for one guy who was wearing a t-shirt that said, “Real Men Love Jesus” — but he would be labeled “worldly” by many(?) in the fundy world because he was wearing t-shirt with a slogan on it!!).

So here’s the interesting thing. In interacting briefly with people, I was quickly able to discern who were the likely Christians by their demeanor, attitudes, friendliness. In other words, something akin to “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35) and “…let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven” (Matt 5:16). I suggest the same thing should be true in the Chicago law firm…the baseball game (watching OR playing)…on the golf course…in the restaurant.

Maybe I missed it, or maybe it’s in the original 1611 version and got mistranslated by worldly compromisers, but I’ve never read the verses, “people will know that you are my disciples, if you dress with distinction” or “let your light shine before others, so that they may see your unusual garments….”

Having said all that—especially that last tongue-in-cheek paragraph—I recognize the importance of not having a sin-clouded, idolatrous heart that wants to identify with a radical, distinctive sub-culture that prides itself in rebellion, immorality, or even exorbitant materialism and whose adherents distinguish themselves largely in their manner of dress. Certainly, for example, it’s hard to reconcile “Christian Goth.” But it’s equally difficult to reconcile “Christian Hilfiger” (or whatever the latest must-have clothing label is). What I’m getting at here is best illustrated by a young lady I overheard in the Christian school hallway bragging to her girlfriends that she spent over $100 for her [designer label] top (that met the dress code & therefore wasn’t “worldly”). I’d suggest that the professing believer who wants to dress either “goth” or “designer” has an idol-heart issue.

…to preach to people who have lived over 2 centuries…

( :::sigh::: )

Okay, their ancestors were evangelized by Judson…

These outward “standards” are supposed to be the practical outworking of a regenerated heart.

This is why our church does not “require” ladies to wear skirts. We don’t “require” a suit and tie for men. Wear what you like. The more mature Christians all, without exception, wear shirts and ties. The more immature Christians tend to wear t-shirts and jeans. There is no condemnation. Maturity will very likely lead people to dress appropriately to worship God.

So here’s the interesting thing. In interacting briefly with people, I was quickly able to discern who were the likely Christians by their demeanor, attitudes, friendliness. In other words, something akin to “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35) and “…let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven” (Matt 5:16). I suggest the same thing should be true in the Chicago law firm…the baseball game (watching OR playing)…on the golf course…in the restaurant.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Our outward actions demonstrate aan inward heart for God. He has always desired this kind of worship, not merely outward show (Deut 10:16-17). I doubt any fundamentalist who advocates secondary separation, as I do, would object to this statement.

Perhaps those who charge us with “cultural fundamentalism” are reacting to the excesses of a specific dictatorial branch of fundamentalism, in the same manner the new evangelicals reacted to the excesses of some in the original fundamentalist movement? The errors of some do not mean the repudiation of Biblical principles of separation. Pickering, for one, spoke at length about this issue in Biblical Separation, especially p. 217-236. Whether you agree with him or not, he bears reading.

[TylerR]

These outward “standards” are supposed to be the practical outworking of a regenerated heart.

This is why our church does not “require” ladies to wear skirts. We don’t “require” a suit and tie for men. Wear what you like. The more mature Christians all, without exception, wear shirts and ties. The more immature Christians tend to wear t-shirts and jeans. There is no condemnation. Maturity will very likely lead people to dress appropriately to worship God.

So here’s the interesting thing. In interacting briefly with people, I was quickly able to discern who were the likely Christians by their demeanor, attitudes, friendliness. In other words, something akin to “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35) and “…let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven” (Matt 5:16). I suggest the same thing should be true in the Chicago law firm…the baseball game (watching OR playing)…on the golf course…in the restaurant.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Our outward actions demonstrate aan inward heart for God. He has always desired this kind of worship, not merely outward show (Deut 10:16-17). I doubt any fundamentalist who advocates secondary separation, as I do, would object to this statement.

Perhaps those who charge us with “cultural fundamentalism” are reacting to the excesses of a specific dictatorial branch of fundamentalism, in the same manner the new evangelicals reacted to the excesses of some in the original fundamentalist movement? The errors of some do not mean the repudiation of Biblical principles of separation. Pickering, for one, spoke at length about this issue in Biblical Separation, especially p. 217-236. Whether you agree with him or not, he bears reading.

Just to be clear, I wasn’t addressing the issue/question of secondary separation per se. I was commenting on this quote from Chuck Phelps article:

Dress that is distinct from the world isn’t cultural. It’s biblical.

That statement leads me to believe that some cultural fundamentalists would object to the notion that Christians shouldn’t stand out in their dress.

I think your post is illustrative of the peculiarities of our American Fundamentalist culture. I understand Americans of a certain tradition have established an idea of what constitutes clothing appropriate for worship.

But what do I do when I get people who come dressed like this? Do I encourage them to put on ties?

Or what about the “western” look?

These are real people in my church, by the way. The top one is one of the most mature Karen families I have. The husband of the bottom family is a recently elected deacon. Do we need to impose Fundamentalist dress culture on them?

This is why our church does not “require” ladies to wear skirts. We don’t “require” a suit and tie for men. Wear what you like. The more mature Christians all, without exception, wear shirts and ties. The more immature Christians tend to wear t-shirts and jeans. There is no condemnation. Maturity will very likely lead people to dress appropriately to worship God.

I appreciate your refusal to “require” certain attire, but I’ve seen an interestingly different development. Young, immature Christians come to church, see how most people are dressed, and conform thinking it’s “the uniform,” while at the same time, some mature believers in their retirement years have ditched the coat & tie and the ladies wear slacks. The immature believer thinks there’s a code to which he has to conform…the mature realizes there is none.

Greg:

Do we need to impose Fundamentalist dress culture on them?

Not at all. Was I suggesting that? I specifically said we were not condemnatory. The non-Western folks you displayed obviously have a somewhat different culture of formal and informal dress. The “western” look is peachy, unless you feel the need to mandate differently. Most members of the congregation likely take their dress cue cue form you, however. What should be taught, in any church, is that worship befoe God is a sober, serious matter. Dress should follow accordingly. It is not about “fundamentalist culture.” It is about worship before God.

Bryan:

I agree that many people simply go along with what they feel is expected. This is why discipleship is important. You should dress formally if you’re convicted about it. If you genuinely have no problem with coming to church in a hoodie and cargo pants, have at it. Seriously. My personal and ministry experience, however, is that as people grow in Christ it will show in many different ways - one of them being how they dress for corporate worship. Do you argue that we shouldn’t dress appropriately for corporate worship before God? It is so vital we teach our folks that standards we implement in our lives come about from a desire to honor God, not to conform to the eyes of men.

[BryanBice]

Young, immature Christians come to church, see how most people are dressed, and conform thinking it’s “the uniform,” while at the same time, some mature believers in their retirement years have ditched the coat & tie and the ladies wear slacks. The immature believer thinks there’s a code to which he has to conform…the mature realizes there is none.

Bryan, in your earlier examples of workplace, ballgames, etc, I think that you were really going beyond the intent of what Chuck is addressing. I think you probably know that he would have appropriateness for worship in mind, which is where the discussion has headed anyway.

Besides that, there is an appropriate standard of dress in every context of life, especially playing sports. The team members all wear the uniform. Businesses have dress codes, they often have specific “dress down” days when they relax their codes for some charitable cause or for company morale, or whatever. But codes still exist.

So when you say that “the mature realizes there is none [i.e., no dress code] “, what do you mean? Do you think the mature believer has realized its ok to worship God in his gardening attire for Sunday morning worship? How far do you go with this “no standard” standard? Any dress … any at all… is appropriate for worship?

It is amazing for me to think you would actually advocate this. More likely what you mean is that the code isn’t coat/tie, or dresses. But there is still a code.

Don,

I can’t speak for Bryan. But I did not think Phelps was talking about worship only. The ministries that I was apart of that focused strongly on dress did so outside of church contexts as well. Ladies wore dresses to Sunday Morning, but Jean skirts for gardening (maybe culottes). I was raised the question asking if it were modest for a lady to modestly play softball in culottes. I was told that probably not, and she probably shouldn’t play. Now maybe Dr. Phelps meant only worship contexts, but many others would not.

What should be taught, in any church, is that worship befoe God is a sober, serious matter. Dress should follow accordingly.

Okay. I can agree with the first statement. I have general agreement with the second, but the question is is what constitutes sober, serious dress? For me, I would not feel especially serious in the clothing my western style friends would. The big belt buckles and snap shirts would make me giggle and want to say “yee haw” at random, inopportune times. I don’t think it does for my friends.

As far as others following my style- I’ve actually had to adjust down to some degree to theirs. Sunday evenings and Wednesdays, we see no ties, and many of the men are in jeans (not to mention some of the women). This was true before I came. It matches the culture of where we are here on the SW Minnesota prairie. One of our deacons is a lawyer. The attire in his office is not generally ties or business suits unless they have a court appearance before a judge. Again, pretty typical in these parts.

On the other hand, I have a couple of Karen shirts that I will occasionally wear now on Sunday mornings instead of my usual coat and tie.

Discipling in this area is hard when you talk inter-cultural specifics. This year, we appointed a couple of Karen men in the congregation into the regular usher rotation. Though we had no formal policy, the assumed SOP had been for those men to generally wear ties. How important was it for us to bring them to that understanding? We actually talked about it as a congregation for quite some time.

I was raised the question asking if it were modest for a lady to modestly play softball in culottes.

Roger,

I have been to winter youth events in Maine where some of the girls wore “snow culottes.” I kid you not.

[Don Johnson]

[BryanBice]

Young, immature Christians come to church, see how most people are dressed, and conform thinking it’s “the uniform,” while at the same time, some mature believers in their retirement years have ditched the coat & tie and the ladies wear slacks. The immature believer thinks there’s a code to which he has to conform…the mature realizes there is none.

Bryan, in your earlier examples of workplace, ballgames, etc, I think that you were really going beyond the intent of what Chuck is addressing. I think you probably know that he would have appropriateness for worship in mind, which is where the discussion has headed anyway.

Besides that, there is an appropriate standard of dress in every context of life, especially playing sports. The team members all wear the uniform. Businesses have dress codes, they often have specific “dress down” days when they relax their codes for some charitable cause or for company morale, or whatever. But codes still exist.

So when you say that “the mature realizes there is none [i.e., no dress code] “, what do you mean? Do you think the mature believer has realized its ok to worship God in his gardening attire for Sunday morning worship? How far do you go with this “no standard” standard? Any dress … any at all… is appropriate for worship?

It is amazing for me to think you would actually advocate this. More likely what you mean is that the code isn’t coat/tie, or dresses. But there is still a code.

My purpose in these posts has not to get into a nitpicking back & forth on minutia….

That said, I wasn’t addressing the question of “appropriateness.” My focus, as I stated, was on the idea that “Dress that is distinct from the world isn’t cultural. It’s biblical…”, and I raised the question of 1) where does the Bible state that my dress as a Christian is to be distinct from the world, and 2) how does that work in some very practical situations?

And as far as what I mean by “the mature realize there is [no dress code] ” I mean just that. We will look in vain to find a biblically mandated “dress code” that must be followed in order to be accepted by God and His people (keeping in mind that a “code” is inherently specific). Gardening attire? Well…Adam did! :)