A friendly reminder: the Pope is (probably) the antichrist

[TylerR]

I deny the Pope is the Anti-Christ. This doesn’t mean I believe they have the Gospel. They do not. The Catholic Church is clearly in error; I would not classify their doctrine as Christian. Anybody who is a Christian within Romanism is so in spite of their doctrine, not because of it.

Would you say that the pope is AN anti-christ or that the papacy is a type of ant-christ?

The Antichrist, when he does come, will be the antithesis of Christ, the consummate sinful man consumed by evil thoughts, intents and desires. The Pope, or more specifically Romanism in general as a corporate body, is an antichrist in the sense of 1 Jn 2:18.

[James K]

Rome isn’t the final kingdom. There is no revived roman empire. That is nothing more than eisegesis. The whore of babylon? Simple, Israel. Who killed the apostles and prophets? Simple, Israel. Who is the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2? Simple, Israel. Who is the 4th beast of Daniel 7? Simple, Israel.

God told Israel “come out of her my people”. Rev 18:4. So if the whore of Babylon is Israel, God is telling His people in Israel, to come out of their own land?

In Revelation 18:20, hard to believe that the prophets are told to rejoice over the destruction of their own nation, particularly when there’s nothing in Scripture that ever indicates that Israel is destroyed, but Babylon is. Rev 18:2.

Who wears purple and scarlet color? Revelation 17:4. Simple: Rome.

Who has a golden cup in her hand? Simple: Rome

What geographical location elevates a religious city by seven mountains? Revelation 17:9. Simple: Rome

When did the world ever collectively refer to Jerusalem as a “great city”? Rev 18:18. The world collectively HATES Israel, so highly unlikely that the world would stand in awe weeping and mourning over Israel’s destruction, espcecially since the world is seen rejoicing over the death of Israel’s 2 witnesses in Revelation 11:10.

Certain things listed in Revelation 18 were not common to Israel. For example, “thyine wood” (Rev 18:12) was commonly used by the Greeks and Romans, not Israel

(And perhaps I will write later as to how Revelation 18 demonstrates that the US is an extension of the Roman Empire).

And yes, you’re right about one thing, this section would be too short to list all the evidence, but evidence that proves that Babylon’s final empire is Rome, certainly not Israel. You’d have to use the most liberal allegorical interpretation possible to make Israel fit into Rev 17-18, Daniel 2, 7, 8-10. Furthermore, you assertion that Israel is the tail of the image of Daniel defies history and the natural succession of the empires that were described. Each section of Nebuchadnezzar’s image was an empire that actively ruled. That has not been true of Israel since the beginning of their captivity by Babylon in circa 600 BC.

Sorry, Texx Marrs is WAY OFF on this one.

DrJamesAch,

I know the standard scofield/dts eschatology. I used to believe it. While I remain a dispensationalist, I reject the glossed over contradictions.

1. God did not tell Israel anything in this text. You assume it refers to Israel. It doesn’t say that. You assume much. Israel is more than a land/political state. It is that no question, but it is primarily a people. Yes, God calls the faithful out of the territory because the territory is about to be leveled.

2. It is only hard if your category is out of line. It is simple to understand that saints would rejoice over the destruction of the false system of religion adopted at that time which continued to shed more saint blood. I marvel that more people don’t understand this. The faithful cheer the righteous acts of God.

3. Again with the oversimplification. Rome of John’s day wasn’t the catholic church. The contrast of the one who lived well and murdered the saints is set over against the pure bride.

4. More oversimplification. So the pope holds a gold cup that is your proof? Weak, terribly weak. The vatican isn’t some center of commerce like the description further says. I see you left that off your list.

5. It gets better I see. More oversimplification. Rome is the city on 7 hills. Rev 18 has Babylon sitting on 7 MOUNTAINS. Further, those same MOUNTAINS are said to represent 7 KING(DOM)S. Nothing quite says literal like making a mountain out of a hill.

6. Read Revelation 11:8 and tell me which city is called the great city. Be literal now. When you see that it is referring to Jerusalem specifically, you will see that the same book refers to it as such. BAM! By the way, judging how the world does anything RIGHT NOW is another mistake in categories and contributes to the confusion. It matters THEN.

7. You assume nothing is exported then?

8. So far you have nothing but error and contradiction. You can’t read back into the Bible your own ideas. You have to do the hard work of exegesis my friend. Given the gross error with Rev 17-18, I understand how it is you don’t understand Dan 2, 7-8. I don’t even know what Texx Marrs is. I am sure that last line was supposed to mean something.

[James K]

DrJamesAch,

I know the standard scofield/dts eschatology. I used to believe it. While I remain a dispensationalist, I reject the glossed over contradictions.

1. God did not tell Israel anything in this text. You assume it refers to Israel. It doesn’t say that. You assume much. Israel is more than a land/political state. It is that no question, but it is primarily a people. Yes, God calls the faithful out of the territory because the territory is about to be leveled.

2. It is only hard if your category is out of line. It is simple to understand that saints would rejoice over the destruction of the false system of religion adopted at that time which continued to shed more saint blood. I marvel that more people don’t understand this. The faithful cheer the righteous acts of God.

3. Again with the oversimplification. Rome of John’s day wasn’t the catholic church. The contrast of the one who lived well and murdered the saints is set over against the pure bride.

4. More oversimplification. So the pope holds a gold cup that is your proof? Weak, terribly weak. The vatican isn’t some center of commerce like the description further says. I see you left that off your list.

5. It gets better I see. More oversimplification. Rome is the city on 7 hills. Rev 18 has Babylon sitting on 7 MOUNTAINS. Further, those same MOUNTAINS are said to represent 7 KING(DOM)S. Nothing quite says literal like making a mountain out of a hill.

6. Read Revelation 11:8 and tell me which city is called the great city. Be literal now. When you see that it is referring to Jerusalem specifically, you will see that the same book refers to it as such. BAM! By the way, judging how the world does anything RIGHT NOW is another mistake in categories and contributes to the confusion. It matters THEN.

7. You assume nothing is exported then?

8. So far you have nothing but error and contradiction. You can’t read back into the Bible your own ideas. You have to do the hard work of exegesis my friend. Given the gross error with Rev 17-18, I understand how it is you don’t understand Dan 2, 7-8. I don’t even know what Texx Marrs is. I am sure that last line was supposed to mean something.

I don’t use any of Scofields eschatology nor his Bible. Never have. Never liked how he sided with Westcott & Hort on several of the Vaticanus and Siniaticus readings.

1. Again, there is no reference in the Bible that says Israel is going to be leveled. Babylon has NEVER been used to refer to Israel. Rev 18:4 is a reference to Jeremiah 51:1-7 and there is a clear distinction between Babylon and Zion (Israel). Babylon and Israel are not the same in Jeremiah 51, nor its companion verse in Revelation 18:4.

Furthermore, this period of destruction (the last 3.5 years of the tribulation) God has hidden Israel WITHIN ISRAEL in a place where He prepared for Israel to hide from the dragon. Revelation 12:6, 14. How is it possible that Israel is “about to be leveled” when His people remain in the land?

2. You stated, “It is simple to understand that saints would rejoice over the destruction of the false system of religion adopted at that time which” So is this an indication that you take the preterist or historicist position on Revelation?

And the text does not indicate that this is the destruction of a “religious SYTSTEM”, but of a physical land mass. Religious systems don’t have smoke that ascends up for ever. Rev 19:3.

Moreover, John writes that the kings of the earth have committed fornication with the harlot. Israel has always been referred to as God’s wife. If Babylon was a reference to Israel, then the kings of the earth would have committed adultery with Babylon, not fornication. Notice the difference in Rev 3:22-23 where Jesus refers to those who get in bed with the whore as adulterers.

Israel has not even come close to shedding the blood of saints that the Roman Catholic Church has shed. Israel at most, had 40 years to attack church saints (from the ascension of Christ to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). Rome did so for 1500 years and counting.

3. Whether Rome of Johns day was the Catholic church is irrelevant. Because Rome amalgamated its state polity with the religion (as pagan as it was) you can not separate the empire of Rome from the religious element of Rome because Rome integrated the two.

4. The golden cup was not the ONLY proof that I listed. I also listed the fact that she is decked in purple and scarlet color, and also gave the pictures to their attire.

And Rome has been a center of commerce for centuries. Apparently you have never read works like “Vatican Billions” or the documented evidence of how much $$$ Rome made off of selling indulgences around the world. And yes I did mention “commerce” as I listed items that were used primarily by Greece and Rome, and not Israel. Israel does not fit the description of all of the commerce listed in Revelation 18:12-13.

In fact, Israel has not even been a contender for commerce until May of 1948. When was Israel the center of commerce from AD 70 to May 1948? Israel had been scattered for nearly 2000 years, and you are trying to say that Israel fits this description of world wide commerce in Revelation 18?? Now THAT is a stretch.

5. The Greek word translated “mountains” is oros, which is neuter gender and means mountains or hills. Both are interchangeable. Even Rome describes this verse as descriptive of their land.

There are different beasts described with 7 heads; one in Revelation 12:3, and one in Revelation 13:1 and notice the difference between the two. The woman sits on the beast, and the beast is a geographical location which is clear in Rev 17:9 and the woman sits on this geographical location.

It does not say that these seven mountains are seven kings. Revelation 17:10 adds the article “AND there are seven kings” Five are fallen (Nimrod, Pharoah, Sennecharib, Cyrus, Alexander) One is (at the time John wrote, Domitian of Rome) and the other is not yet come (future man of sin, the beast with the horns like a lamb, Rev 13:11).

The beast is made up of kings, a whore, that hale from a geographical location on seven mountains: ROME.

6. Your reading of Revelation 11:8 is a total misinterpretation of the text and does not refute what I said about none of the nations COLLECTIVELY referring to Babylon as “that great city” as they do in Revelation 18.

In Revelation 11:8, the reference to Jerusalem being a great city is from JOHN’S perspective, not the rest of the world. In Revelation 18, it is the entire world that mourns and weeps over “that great city Babylon”.

Furthermore, Revelation 11:8 doesn’t help your arguement consideirng that Jerusalem here is called spiritual Sodom and Egypt, NOT BABYLON. (Read Deuteronomy and Judges for the original borders of Israel!).

7. Nothing exported? TO WHO? As stated above, when the commerce of Rome included thyine wood, Israel was scatterred, so Israel wasn’t doing much of any exporting or importing.

And finally, the end of Revelation states that in her was found the blood of saints and prophets and ALL THAT WERE SLAIN UPON THE EARTH. Israel may have slaughtered a few prophets here and there, but the apostles were all killed BY ROME, NOT ISRAEL and thus the emphasis on Revelation 18:20. Furthermore, Rome has continued to slaughter millions of Christians and anyone who dissented from the doctrine of Rome. Rome also assisted in the finance of both world wars (signing a concordat between Hitler and Pope Pius XII in 1933). Israel does not fit that description.

And thanks for the hermeneutic lesson. I did the hard work of “exegeting” the scripture while memorizing the New Testament, having finished with Revelation in December of 2011.

I see that you are KJVonly. While you might not accept the Scofield/DTS eschatology, apparently your teachers did.

1. Babylon is the whore, the false religious (17) and economic (18) system. Babylon is all referred to as a mystery. The connection then isn’t that Israel would or would not actually be CALLED babylon, but that this final form would be so closely tied to Babel that it could be called that. Babylon, Babel, is where the false religious/economic system in opposition to God’s system was set up.

You said, “Israel has always been referred to as God’s wife.” Israel was repeatedly referred to as a whore throughout the OT.

2. I am a staunch premill dispy. Stop the assumptions. Your categories are way off. Babylon is both religious and economic. Chapters 17 and 18 go together.

Israel didn’t cease to exist because it lacked political boundaries in a political state.

Matthew 23

34 This is why I am sending you prophets, sages, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues and hound from town to town. 35 So all the righteous blood shed on the earth will be charged to you, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 •I assure you: All these things will come on this generation!

and also examine Matthew 21:33ff parable.

3 and 4. The vatican aren’t the only ones to ever wear scarlet and purple and drink from gold cups. Your oversimplifications just don’t cut it. You have a description of the whore who was only “attractive” on the outside. She dressed up to live it up with the kings of the earth. This is in contrast to the pure bride.

5. Apparently I need to quote the passage:

Revelation 17

9 “Here is the mind with wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. 10 They are also seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain for a little while

I bolded that portion because you said, “It does not say that these seven mountains are seven kings.”

So…yeah…

6. Really? It is a misrepresentation of the Bible to say that Jerusalem is the great city because the Bible says that Jerusalem is the great city? No, your hardened categories refuse to let the Bible dictate belief. In that day, Jerusalem will be so disgusting, it will be as evil as Sodom and Egypt.

Further, it is the world as it exists in the days spoken of. You are judging present reality against that.

7. Making a big deal that something isn’t native to Israel means nothing. Goods can be bought and shipped now.

Finally, I know where you are coming from. I have been there. I can only encourage you to use the Bible to interpret itself. I wish you well. I am done unless there is some actual substance put forth.

I’d really like to explore this matter with anybody further, specifically sticking to Dan 7 and expositing the text rather than skipping around (no offense intended). I’d like to hear and understand where you’re each coming from. I apologize I haven’t posted anything on this - wrapping up several projects at the moment.

JamesAch and JamesK, sound like a plan? We can each present our expositions in a separate thread, or on our own sites and correspond via email if you’d prefer. I want to hear and understand you guys. I don’t agree with any of you, but I’d like to discuss it.

I picked Dan 7 because it is the most in-depth prophesy of the four “beasts” in the book.

Sounds good to me.