There is a creeping anti-natalism in America that has made having large families a radical act
yea… I heard about the Duggars and think they’re loony. - at the very least - abnormal. Also, I hate reality TV, so I’m bias - but still - 19 kids is a lot even by Biblical (i.e. multiple wife) standards.
_______________ www.SutterSaga.com
The Duggars aside; there is, in my view, an “anti-natalism” where someone with even 5 children is considered “odd”.
if you look on this site, for some global perspective, the U.S. is #125 of 220 countries as far as who has more kids. 1 is most and 220 is least. So there are 124 countries where the average woman has more kids and 94 countries where the average woman has less kids.
www(DOT)indexmundi(DOT)com/g/r.aspx?v=31
The site says: “Global fertility rates are in general decline and this trend is most pronounced in industrialized countries, especially Western Europe, where populations are projected to decline dramatically over the next 50 years.”
Industrialization does make having children an economic burden, rather than a necessity. I recently read a book all about this–- the family used to be the economic center of it’s own making, but industrialism sort of kills that.
I find it an interesting topic personally. Like, in some ways I find it intriguing to think about being agrarian, being pretty self-sufficient, etc. But then, that would be basically all we do in life, you know? And our mindset today in no way prepares us to accept that really.
www(DOT)indexmundi(DOT)com/g/r.aspx?v=31
The site says: “Global fertility rates are in general decline and this trend is most pronounced in industrialized countries, especially Western Europe, where populations are projected to decline dramatically over the next 50 years.”
Industrialization does make having children an economic burden, rather than a necessity. I recently read a book all about this–- the family used to be the economic center of it’s own making, but industrialism sort of kills that.
I find it an interesting topic personally. Like, in some ways I find it intriguing to think about being agrarian, being pretty self-sufficient, etc. But then, that would be basically all we do in life, you know? And our mindset today in no way prepares us to accept that really.
[Jim Peet] The Duggars aside; there is, in my view, an “anti-natalism” where someone with even 5 children is considered “odd”.
I remember when I was carrying my 4th child, and the rude comments people made to me about having too many kids- and I’m not even talking about people I knew personally. Then when they find out you homeschool… I’ve been called everything but your father’s mustache. I can’t imagine what it’s like for people with 5+ kids. My brother has 7, and I’ve heard his wife comment about how nasty people have been to her over the years. It’s just weird.
[Susan R]I think that sometimes people are frustrated with unrestrained children running wild, and so they get down on people with large families for that reason. IMO, when people have large families consisting of well-behaved children (who don’t run in church and mow down elderly people or pound on the piano in front of their parents), those parents are often highly esteemed.[Jim Peet] The Duggars aside; there is, in my view, an “anti-natalism” where someone with even 5 children is considered “odd”.
I remember when I was carrying my 4th child, and the rude comments people made to me about having too many kids- and I’m not even talking about people I knew personally. Then when they find out you homeschool… I’ve been called everything but your father’s mustache. I can’t imagine what it’s like for people with 5+ kids. My brother has 7, and I’ve heard his wife comment about how nasty people have been to her over the years. It’s just weird.
"The Midrash Detective"
[Ed Vasicek][Susan R]I think that sometimes people are frustrated with unrestrained children running wild, and so they get down on people with large families for that reason. IMO, when people have large families consisting of well-behaved children (who don’t run in church and mow down elderly people or pound on the piano in front of their parents), those parents are often highly esteemed.[Jim Peet] The Duggars aside; there is, in my view, an “anti-natalism” where someone with even 5 children is considered “odd”.
I remember when I was carrying my 4th child, and the rude comments people made to me about having too many kids- and I’m not even talking about people I knew personally. Then when they find out you homeschool… I’ve been called everything but your father’s mustache. I can’t imagine what it’s like for people with 5+ kids. My brother has 7, and I’ve heard his wife comment about how nasty people have been to her over the years. It’s just weird.
that people were frustrated because they assumed that large families must be on welfare.
My own position
How few or many or even none of another couple, is not my business! And how many or few we had is no one else’s business either.
But I’m pretty sure we would not invite the Duggars to our house after church. Too much for my wife!
How few or many or even none of another couple, is not my business! And how many or few we had is no one else’s business either.
But I’m pretty sure we would not invite the Duggars to our house after church. Too much for my wife!
[Ed Vasicek] IMO, when people have large families consisting of well-behaved children (who don’t run in church and mow down elderly people or pound on the piano in front of their parents), those parents are often highly esteemed.
Or, as often as not, “those parents” are labeled as being too controlling, not allowing their kids to be kids, and other such nonsense.
At least that’s how it is in my little corner of the universe. If you are outside the societal norm, there *must* be something wrong with you. (And if we can’t find it, we’ll make something up.)
Fortunately, my responsibility is to God. Not to societal norms. :D
[Rev Karl] Fortunately, my responsibility is to God. Not to societal norms. :DThe same is true for those couples who have no kids, and are not in the foreseeable future.
[Daniel][Rev Karl] Fortunately, my responsibility is to God. Not to societal norms. :DThe same is true for those couples who have no kids, and are not in the foreseeable future.
Yeah. What about those couples who are medically incapable of bearing children? Are they required to adopt to make their family experience complete? (Of course, I say “No.” Unless God specifically directs them to do so.)
I would have to offer that I believe people have forsaken God’s sovereignty in children in general (which the Scriptures do have much to say about), and our embracing of the “using the brains God gave us” mentality has taken a grave toll on gender roles, impact beyond one’s own life, the impact on the economy (which the article referred to mentions), etc., etc. There is so much that has been lost, in my estimation, because we see kids as a burden rather than a divinely given blessing. There is little (if any) Biblical logic that encourages or allows for such practices or thinking. Big families are God’s idea from the beginning and they will happen if we simply take what God desires to give, rather than exercising divine prerogatives without being divine (as if our wisdom somehow exceeded His).
As far as kids running around, in my own experience, that has to do with discipline, not the number of kids (from what I understand, the Duggars are VERY well behaved). I’ve seen kids from small and large families running around. I’ve also seen the opposite.
As far as using government funds, that is a bane for many more than just large families. Cash for clunkers, government student loans and Pell grants (which, if gone, would close down most “accredited” Christian colleges who live or die by those funds), food stamps, WIC etc. It is a principle that one must live by. We have chosen to live within the income that I as the breadwinner can produce (sometimes with more than one job, mind you), and though sometimes difficult, we have been able to do so without government subsidies. It is doable. People have to just determine to give up some temporal things for eternal lives.
I would address Rev Karl. Some cannot have children, but even that is addressed in the Word. I would wonder how “God specifically directs” people regarding this. Mysticism? Hasn’t God already directed? If children are blessing (Gen 1), and a man is happy if he has a quiver full of them (Ps 127), what’s to keep us from letting God handle the details? Just be blessed and happy.
Without question, my wife and I are thrilled to have 15 children (9 still at home). There is nothing we could be offered that tempt us in the slightest to trade any or all of our struggles or experiences (we are still learning as parents, to say the least). Some people think we are crazy (though it is simply amazing how many are from larger families, and/or wished they had a larger family). We think people are crazy for going out of their way to prevent God’s blessing and promised happiness. Having been on this side, we simply say, “If you knew what we had, you would want it too.”
There is much more to say on this most foundational of topics, but I must stop for fear of being a burden to the few that are reading this.
As far as kids running around, in my own experience, that has to do with discipline, not the number of kids (from what I understand, the Duggars are VERY well behaved). I’ve seen kids from small and large families running around. I’ve also seen the opposite.
As far as using government funds, that is a bane for many more than just large families. Cash for clunkers, government student loans and Pell grants (which, if gone, would close down most “accredited” Christian colleges who live or die by those funds), food stamps, WIC etc. It is a principle that one must live by. We have chosen to live within the income that I as the breadwinner can produce (sometimes with more than one job, mind you), and though sometimes difficult, we have been able to do so without government subsidies. It is doable. People have to just determine to give up some temporal things for eternal lives.
I would address Rev Karl. Some cannot have children, but even that is addressed in the Word. I would wonder how “God specifically directs” people regarding this. Mysticism? Hasn’t God already directed? If children are blessing (Gen 1), and a man is happy if he has a quiver full of them (Ps 127), what’s to keep us from letting God handle the details? Just be blessed and happy.
Without question, my wife and I are thrilled to have 15 children (9 still at home). There is nothing we could be offered that tempt us in the slightest to trade any or all of our struggles or experiences (we are still learning as parents, to say the least). Some people think we are crazy (though it is simply amazing how many are from larger families, and/or wished they had a larger family). We think people are crazy for going out of their way to prevent God’s blessing and promised happiness. Having been on this side, we simply say, “If you knew what we had, you would want it too.”
There is much more to say on this most foundational of topics, but I must stop for fear of being a burden to the few that are reading this.
For the Shepherd and His sheep, Kevin Grateful husband of a Proverbs 31 wife, and the father of 15 blessings. http://captive-thinker.blogspot.com
[Kevin Subra] I would address Rev Karl. Some cannot have children, but even that is addressed in the Word. I would wonder how “God specifically directs” people regarding this. Mysticism? Hasn’t God already directed? If children are blessing (Gen 1), and a man is happy if he has a quiver full of them (Ps 127), what’s to keep us from letting God handle the details? Just be blessed and happy.
How does God “Specifically Direct” a man to answer the call to the ministry? He gives the man a burden for that ministry, the man responds with prayer and study of the Scripture, asking God if He truly wants him to set forth on such a monumental untertaking. Upon receiving a positive answer, he moves forward. Or, upon receiving a negative answer, he stops, is still, and waits upon God for the next direction.
How does God “Specifically Direct” a man to answer the call to be the pastor of a specific church? He gives the man a burden for that church, the man responds with prayer and study of the Scripture, asking God if He truly wants him to set forth on such a monumental untertaking. Upon receiving a positive answer, he moves forward. Or, upon receiving a negative answer, he stops, is still, and waits upon God for the next direction.
How does God “Specifically Direct” a couple to answer the call to the mission field? He gives the couple a burden for that mission field, they respond with prayer and study of the Scripture, asking God if He truly wants them to set forth on such a monumental untertaking….
How does God “Specifically Direct” a couple to adopt a child? He gives the couple a love and a burden for that child, they respond with prayer and study of the Scripture, asking God if He truly wants them to set forth on such a monumental untertaking…
RE: the Ministry, I have experienced and acted on both answers from God in different situations. His way is perfect.
RE: Adoption, my wife and I have experienced both answers from God. In our case, God brought a newborn into our home as a foster child. He placed her in our home, and in our hearts. When she was eventually released for adoption, God gave us direction, supplied financially and legally, and we had our daughter, a gift from God, twice given.
In another situation, we had all the pieces in place, and God said “No.” So *we* said “No.”
In another situation, God provided once again. We had decided not to pursue adoption on our own. But “If God drops one in our lap” we would not refuse Him. Our son was, almost literally, out of the blue, dropped in our lap.
We are a family of four. The Lord has not blessed my DW and I with the ability to give birth to our own biological children. I am the only one in my family who is *not* an adopted child. For us, adoption was His plan. Just as, for all of us, adoption is His plan for bringing us into His family. (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:5, Ephesians 1:5)
For Herself and me. God simply hasn’t opened the door for children for us. However, over the years we’ve had fun trying.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
Discussion