Matt Olson: "to draw dividing lines that He has not drawn grieves Him, hurts the body of Christ"

What Matters Most: How We Draw the Lines

I can visit a church on Sunday morning, fellowship with believers, love what I am seeing, encourage fellow believers in what they are doing—and still choose not to join that particular local assembly. When we start separating over every belief and opinion we soon find ourselves standing all alone, criticizing the rest of body of Christ. I don’t think that is what God intended

Discussion

My take on your example is that this man’s sub-conscious mind operated during his sleep and brought to him various thoughts about the gospel. In other words, assuming that he is not lying or delusional, he had a real dream. I do not assert or believe that it was a revelatory dream.

I’d be curious what your view is about the thousands of Muslims in closed countries that have come to Christ, never hearing of Jesus and never hearing of the gospel, yet somehow they had various thoughts through their sub-conscious mind during the dream. How could they have thoughts about the gospel when they never ever heard of or seen pictures of Jesus before?

Interestingly enough, one of my seminary professors, the late Dr. Robert Rapa, who was one of the strongest advocates of cessationism, yet later in life, allowed for dreams and visions in closed countries. The reason? Dr. Rapa was a professor as well as a seminary president in Thailand and Singapore for over a decade. He had so many Baptist students under him that came from Muslim-controlled countries that had never heard of Jesus or the gospel, yet they had a dream or vision that caused them to seek out the person that they had a dream or vision about. Through God’s providence it brought them around to meet a Christian where someone told them it was Jesus in their dream or vision.

This became Dr. Rapa’s only exception to cessationism.

[Mike Harding]

Steve,

First, thanks for the kind words. Our friendship is still in tact. I re-read your article. My take on your example is that this man’s sub-conscious mind operated during his sleep and brought to him various thoughts about the gospel. In other words, assuming that he is not lying or delusional, he had a real dream. I do not assert or believe that it was a revelatory dream. Of course, I realize “that the man with the experience is not at the mercy of the man with the doctrine,” to quote Hobart Freeman who left Grace Seminary after converting to charismaticism.

Regarding Matt’s personal integrity, no one has accused him of lying. Nor do we consider visiting a church and appreciating the good things he saw as an unqualified endorsement. That would be unfair. My opinion is that Matt overlooks certain issues because he does not think they are very important. He does not see the seriousness of those issues. Does this concern me? Yes. I have students at that school. I have Northland grads in my church. I have sent many young people to that camp. I have had numerous groups from the school minister in our church. I wonder, “What are they being taught and what is being neglected?”

Steve, you have been very clear as to your change of direction. I don’t think it is a radical change, but it is according to your own statements a change. You and I handled that change as Christian gentlemen. To be candid, I am somewhat saddened by it and you are probably disappointed that I have remained in “IFBdom” as you call it; however, I know you love God, the Gospel, the Bible, the church. The same could be said of Matt. I know you are sacrificing in many ways to plant a new church that is consistent with your values, beliefs, and philosophy. The difference between you and Matt is that Matt is overseeing an IFB Bible college that agreed with us on music, dispensationalism, Baptist distinctives, ecclesiastical and personal separation and a host of other issues. We sent them students, money, public support. It appears to me (and I say “appears” because I am an optimist and sincerely pray for the best) that the positions of the school as led by Matt are changing even as some of your positions have changed. Based on what you have written, I am fairly confident that you also have noticed these changes and that you are in whole-hearted agreement with them. I understand what you are saying and why.

If I were a Bible college president, I would be very concerned about what my Bible professors believed in regard to the cessationist/continuationist debate. If my Bible professor was an active member of a SGM church, I would have to let him go. The issue of continuationism is far too serious to confuse my students with that level of ambiguity or confusion, particularly in light of my school’s documents, policies, history, and constituency. Even conservative evangelicals like John MacArthur would be doctrinally militant on this issue. I have known Matt as long as you have and have many fond memories of our friendship and mutual involvement in ministry. Friendship is important. Truth is more important. On this issue of continuationism truth is on the line as I stated in my previous post. Truth trumps ecclesiastical fellowship on something like this.

Mike:

I appreciate your careful response. In the story I shared you may be right except that the man had never heard the gospel in any way, shape, or form. For him to have a real dream about the gospel is still exceptional. The dream was certainly not revelatory in the sense of revelation which was then inscripturated. I think I have been careful in my understanding of how God may work in pioneer settings and how that differs from the nonsense we see around us today.

I understand your concern about what students are taught at Northland and that professors be in accord with the doctrinal statement. I do not know if the employee moving to Philly and joining a SGM church in question is a professor. However, I still am not convinced that the Northland statement on the Charismatic Movement can be applied to SGM. In any case the employee would be hard pressed to find an IFB church in that area of Philadelphia or in all of Philadelphia. There may be some but I don’t know of any solid IBF churches in Philadelphia.

I think Northland can retain its distinctives and yet demonstrate that in many areas there are legitimate differences among Bible-believing Christians and present other views. If not, students will eventually find out that they have been sheltered and they will not be prepared for the challenges. I also think a school can tell its students that it holds to certain positions but not all are a test of fellowship.
You say that Northland as an IFB school “agreed with us on music, dispensationalism, Baptist distinctives, ecclesiastical and personal separation and a host of other issues.” Who’s the us? Can you get two Baptists who agree on these and a host of other issues? There would be no school if agreement in all these areas was necessary. Is Calvinism one of them and if so how many points? It seems that is one area that is not in the “host of other things” where there is disagreement but not a hindrance to fellowship. So who decides which issues demand agreement? I think it may be time for Matt to sit down with you and other concerned leaders for a roundtable discussion. If IFB’s continue to draw the lines beyond Scripture they will continue to decline. As I see it Northland is not alone in changing direction, in healthy ways IMO. When I see Dever at Calvary Baptist Seminary along with Bauder, Doran, etc (and D. A. Carson next year), changes are clearly taking place.

Finally, I am not disappointed that you remain IFB as you believe God has called you. There are IFB guys like you that I would gladly fellowship with and partner with. You are right. I have changed but not radically. I have the same commitment to Scripture and desire to be a disciple of Jesus. The problem is that we have added so many things to agree on in order to fellowship and partner in ministry. You are also right that truth trumps friendship. But I’m afraid we sometimes claim to hold the Truth in some areas when we really hold to the truth as we understand it, where we can disagree until further light is given. And when friendships suffer because of that, that is tragic.

Blessings my brother,

Steve

I do not know if the employee moving to Philly and joining a SGM church in question is a professor. However, I still am not convinced that the Northland statement on the Charismatic Movement can be applied to SGM. In any case the employee would be hard pressed to find an IFB church in that area of Philadelphia or in all of Philadelphia. There may be some but I don’t know of any solid IBF churches in Philadelphia.

If he is leaving Northland’s employ to go help with church planting and be their representative (which is what I think he’s doing), then he can’t, ipso facto, be on faculty unless he’s going to video-teach a bunch of classes, and I don’t think that will work for a collegeuniversity setting.

This discussion on cessationalism is interesting for a variety of reasons, but the one aspect that jumps out at me is how many people talk about being ‘hard cessationalists’ (as in, there is no ongoing supernatural help of any kind) yet they keep carving out exceptions to the rule (this discussion about the Muslim man is a good example - other discussions about whether or how God ‘leads’ through a subjective means like a “Holy Spirit Impulse To Call Someone (see the embedded clip)” or a “Call to Ministry” is another). I’ve quietly called myself a soft cessationist for a few years now simply because I can’t with absolute authority say that God doesn’t lead via “Call to Ministry” or “Holy Spirit Impulse” or whatever. I’ve heard plenty of stories (and they are just stories) where it certainly seemed like the Holy Spirit moved someone to do something that was absolutely in line with what the Word of God said, and I think that stories like the one about the Muslim man would be more prevalent in a places like the 10/40 window. Of course, measuring all things against what God’s Word is key, which is where wackos/heretics like Benny Hinn and TBN go horribly astray (to mention just one small area of that whole mess).

At the end of the day, I do think that it is possible to believe that God can and does work through supernatural means in today’s society (James 5:13-15) but also completely affirm that the canon of Scripture is closed and that any belief in ‘re-inspiration’ or ‘ongoing revelation’ are heretical. God has given us His Son (Heb. 1:1-4) and His Word (2 Tim. 3:12-4:4). That’s all we need.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Jay,

Great post! I agree with your thoughts there.

Chip,

You make your case well. You and I have discussed this before. I certainly agree with you that the Jamaica situation is a bit different than the CJ thing. My point in using the illustration goes back to the purpose of this thread - which is the discussion on how you draw lines. As you know at SVBC the elders have determined that each potential application of ecclesiastical separation will happen on a “case-by-case” basis based on what we believe Biblical wisdom would dictate. One of the results of that approach is if we have an open door - and a ministry is open to being helped and taught - especially if there is little chance of further contact - we’ll take that opportunity to influence. Because we at SVBC do not believe in a “one size fits all separation” from other evangelicals, our unity/separation approach is not 100% vis-a-vis 0%. I made the case in our Standpoint Conference a few years ago that the NT demonstrates a graded “koinonia.” So the question is this - are the differences that we have with CJ and gang - do those constitute a serous enough threat to the gospel and orthodoxy to warrant a 0% koinonia. We would say, “no it does not.” We would say the kind of differences we have with CJ are similar to the differences with fundamentalists that have a more “active” view of “the voice of God.” Now does that mean our koinonia is at 100%? Absolutely not! On the evangelical side we would not have CJ come and talk about his view of prophecy. On the fundamentalist side we would not have the Van’s come in and talk about the Keswick thing. However, might there be a time we would have some kind of connection with a CJ kind of an evangelical church - and might thee be a time we would have some kind of connection with a Keswick-leaning fundamentalist church? To be clear I wouldn’t seek that out but in all honesty -yeah there might be a time we would be partially involved with either kind of ministry for the Gospel sake. Why? Well both groups preach the gospel and in gospel work there will be times when the gospel can be presented and ministry happen outside of the differences we might have with both groups.

Chip, forgive my wondering. Your initial point is fair. In honesty you are correct that the Jamaica situation is indeed a bit different. Good call and God bless!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Steve said: “In any case the employee would be hard pressed to find an IFB church in that area of Philadelphia or in all of Philadelphia.”

I’m skeptical about this statement but admit you know more of the area than I. I lived in greater Philly (Haddon Heights NJ, Cherry Hill, NJ, and Moorestown NJ). I know that there are fine IFB churches on the NJ side of the river. One such example is Haddon Heights Baptist

Dan Burrell wrote:

The last time I was in a private meeting with John MacArthur chatting about, of all things, “Purpose Driven”, he excused himself to go have lunch with…………….

……………Chuck Smith.

Yes….THAT Chuck Smith.

Smile

And our Lord ate with prostitutes and other sinners. The point of your anecdote is?

Alex….others may choose to respond to your constant stream of condescension and stridency with sincerity and a misguided a belief that you will ever concede a point or position, I’m not one of those.

Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com

Jim brought up a good point - in southern NJ (where I grew up), Hardingville Bible Church is supposed to be really strong, although I don’t know a whole lot about them.

I would be hesitant, however, to say that the NIU grad MUST attend a certain church, and if he is going there to help strengthen and establish a new church in the Philly area that will preach the Gospel, then more power to him…it’s not like there can be too many gospel preaching churches in a city of about 6 million.

It’s one thing to move there with the intent of helping a new church plant, and another thing to move there and go to a church that is ‘safe’ in terms of our affiliations. It’s also another thing decide to pack your family up and drive them an hour (or more?) to a ‘safe’ church when a Gospel preaching church plant (that may or may not be weak on this - all we know is that they’re affiliated with SGM) is only twenty minutes away (to pick numbers from the air).

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Hey Jay

You said: “I would be hesitant, however, to say that the NIU grad MUST attend a certain church”

But if I understand the issue correctly (and perhaps I don’t) .. it isn’t just any Grad .. he directs the online ministry as an employee.

And Matt O didn’t really answer that question at all or even attempt to. If NIU has a stated doctrinal position (and they do) … it would seem logical that employees should agree with that position. Perhaps he does. But if he does … does he disagree with his church’s position?

Help me out if I am wrong about this.

Thanks

It’s all very well to discuss and debate SGM’s Charismatic Intensity Index, but they claim the title for themselves. A cursory study of their teachings will reveal what they mean by all New Testament gifts being available today and ought to be sought out by believers.

But the questions we are asking have to do with Northland, not SGM. Northland has a clearly stated policy of separation from Charismatics including their ​doctrinal statement​. You can debate whether that should be their policy, whether it should be in their statement, but it is.

So the situation is that Matt says an SGM pastor and his young church members “get what matters most” and is allowing an NIU staff member to continue his employment while being a member of this self-proclaimed Charismatic church. The employee, Greg Dietrich, is currently “Assistant Director Northland Graduate School”. He is also the Director of Northland Online. It is not clear which jobs he will be doing while in Philadelphia, one would think the Online part of his portfolio might be part of it.

Regardless, Greg is not an insignificant figure among the Northland staffers.

So the questions remain. Will the NIU doctrinal and policy statements be changed? Will the teaching of NIU be changed in any way relative to Charismatics? Or will the employee be retained?

The questions I raised are about Northland, not about SGM.

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

Don,

Your refocus is good here - back to the original point. I have to admit to you and everyone else I just had a pretty good laugh with your, “Charismatic Intensity Index.” OK - I know you are making a point - but that was funny!

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

[Jim]

Steve said: “In any case the employee would be hard pressed to find an IFB church in that area of Philadelphia or in all of Philadelphia.”

I’m skeptical about this statement but admit you know more of the area than I. I lived in greater Philly (Haddon Heights NJ, Cherry Hill, NJ, and Moorestown NJ). I know that there are fine IFB churches on the NJ side of the river. One such example is Haddon Heights Baptist

Jersey is not Philadelphia. Greater Philadelphia is not Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 1.5 million in the city. GP includes the suburbs and maybe Jersey. GP and NJ may be close geographically but they are worlds away in so many ways. Philadelphians generally do not leave the city to attend church somewhere in the suburbs or New Jersey unless attend is all they plan to do (to say nothing of the bridge tolls going to Jersey). There may be some IFB churches in Philadelphia. It’s a big place and Grace Bible Church is in Northeast Philly on the other side of the city from us in West Philly (where there are certainly no IFB chuches). The ones I knew of in the past were KJV only. There may be some others of which I am unaware. I was going to belabor that being charismatic does not equate with being part of the Charismatic Movement but as I said before for some there is little nuance (not speaking about you Jim).

I see here a difference between how Californians view distances and how Easterners do the same.

[Steve Davis]

[Jim]

Steve said: “In any case the employee would be hard pressed to find an IFB church in that area of Philadelphia or in all of Philadelphia.”

I’m skeptical about this statement but admit you know more of the area than I. I lived in greater Philly (Haddon Heights NJ, Cherry Hill, NJ, and Moorestown NJ). I know that there are fine IFB churches on the NJ side of the river. One such example is Haddon Heights Baptist

Jersey is not Philadelphia. Greater Philadelphia is not Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 1.5 million in the city. GP includes the suburbs and maybe Jersey. GP and NJ may be close geographically but they are worlds away in so many ways. Philadelphians generally do not leave the city to attend church somewhere in the suburbs or New Jersey unless attend is all they plan to do (to say nothing of the bridge tolls going to Jersey). There may be some IFB churches in Philadelphia. It’s a big place and Grace Bible Church is in Northeast Philly on the other side of the city from us in West Philly (where there are certainly no IFB chuches). The ones I knew of in the past were KJV only. There may be some others of which I am unaware. I was going to belabor that being charismatic does not equate with being part of the Charismatic Movement but as I said before for some there is little nuance (not speaking about you Jim).

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

[Dan Burrell]

Dan Burrell wrote:

The last time I was in a private meeting with John MacArthur chatting about, of all things, “Purpose Driven”, he excused himself to go have lunch with…………….

……………Chuck Smith.

Yes….THAT Chuck Smith.

Smile

And our Lord ate with prostitutes and other sinners. The point of your anecdote is?

Alex….others may choose to respond to your constant stream of condescension and stridency with sincerity and a misguided a belief that you will ever concede a point or position, I’m not one of those.

It appears my earlier response was moderated so that you are spared my wit, that’s fine. So I will be more direct. Show me the point to which you believe I should concede and make your argument otherwise ad hominem complaints only give the appearance that you do not have any arguments beyond your assertions. So if you provide no arguments and only anecdotal assertions and ad hominem complaints then there’s nothing for me to concede to and really nothing for you to complain about.

My guess is I must be one of the most vocal supports of NIU here at SI who actually never attended NIU. Matt is my friend. I’ve been on record of defending both Matt and NIU and I am happy to carry whatever “ill” that might mean. Having said all that as a dear friend of NIU I would say to our dear friends in Dunbar that it is good to make a determination on how to respond here. If indeed you determine your critics are wrong - I think you could respond with at least 4 choices:

1. You can decide that the noise on this will go away - it is an “over-reaction” and you leave the doctrinal statement as is. Perhaps connected with that is the determination to not say anything in public. You may determine to allow your continued character to defend you. Sometimes this might be the best call in situations like this.

2. You can decide that the noise will not go away - you note that the people making the noise will continue to make noise because they are noisy people - and they don’t like your direction any way - so why do or say anything. Perhaps you buy everyone Green and White “ear-plugs.”

3. You look at your doctrinal statement and say - the doctrinal statement stays the same because we don’t view the views of CJ and their churches as part of the charismatic movement and we’ll make a public statement defending our view on that.

4. You re-work your doctrinal statement so that you hold the non-charismatic position of the school while allowing the leadership to make a “case-by-case” determination as to when other ministries that might be different but not so different that you can’t have some kind of appreciation or cooperation.

If I were on the administrative team of NIU (and I am not so don’t hold them accountable for what I say here) - but if I were you guys - I would just review with all the leadership “who we are.” Let’s all affirm this. You then settle in your hearts that based on that view of truth - you will have friends who will stand with you and you will have friends (and maybe some who really are not friends) who simply cannot stand with you because you are too different. I get the sense you guys have already done that - but it might be that everyone can be reminded of that. You then trust that as you continue down the journey of ministry, God will give you all the friends you need to accomplish your ministry. That is exactly what God has demonstrated to our ministry after making a similar commitment some years ago.

One thing is for sure - you can depend on one congregation and it’s leadership team in Gilbert, AZ that loves you, supports you and is on public record of agreeing with your direction and the character of your leadership.

Straight Ahead and please……stay warm! It is very cold up there.

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Just as a side-note, we sent our middle school and high school students to Northland’s camp this past July. These were almost exclusively public school students. Their lives were tremendously impacted by their time there. As a pastor, I am very thankful for Northland’s ministry emphasis of majoring on the majors and leaving minor differences (matters of preference and style) to be sorted out by the local churches themselves.