Fundamentalism: Whence? Where? Whither? Part 4

NickOfTime

Fundamentalism and Populism

Read Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.

Prior to Thomas Reid and Scottish Common Sense Realism, people typically recognized a distinction between appearances (whether understood as perceptions, phenomena, or, in Locke’s case, ideas) and reality. From antiquity until the late Middle Ages, this distinction had produced two effects upon the way that most people thought about reality. First, they reckoned that whatever reality they encountered had to be interpreted—and not everyone was in an equally good position to do the interpreting. Second, they believed that reality possessed dimensions of meaning or significance that stretched well beyond sensory awareness. Grasping those levels of meaning was also something that not everyone was equally qualified to do.

Common Sense Realists denied the distinction between appearance and reality. They insisted that perceiving subjects have direct and unmediated access to reality itself. Consequently, reality does not need to be interpreted—it is as it appears to be. This move had the effect of placing every person on an equal footing for understanding any aspect of reality.

As presented by people like Reid and Dugald Stewart, Common Sense Realism was a responsible if misguided academic option. Ironically, however, many of the people who appropriated and applied Reid’s conclusions would not have been capable of understanding his arguments. Chief among them were Americans.

Even before Reid, Americans had begun to affirm the competence of the ordinary person in all matters. This perspective is called populism. The harshness of the American frontier and the necessity of individual accomplishment tended to negate aristocratic influences. The sense that they were starting anew gave Americans an antipathy toward traditions. The arrival of Common Sense Realism confirmed the populist prejudice and opened the throttle for its acceleration. This process continued throughout the Jeffersonian and Jacksonian periods.

At the time of the American Revolution, populism was widely (though not universally) assumed by American Christians. The influence of populism continued to grow during the first half of the Nineteenth Century. Under its sway, many expressions of American Christianity became anti-traditional, anti-clerical, and anti-intellectual. Branches of American evangelicalism rejected the value of creeds and confessions, of advanced study (sometimes of any specialized study), and of a trained ministry. The ideal became the individual who, without any particular theological training, read the Bible and came to his own convictions. Such individuals, if articulate, could become the leaders of significant communities and movements.

Some of those movements turned out to be less than evangelical. Seventh-Day Adventism owes its origins to this period, as does the Stone-Campbell movement. Indeed, this was a time when novel sects and cults were beginning to abound.

Among evangelicals, populism contributed to and was fed by the Second Great Awakening. It produced the camp-meeting movement, and, at a slightly later period, the urban revivalists. The most influential of these was Charles Grandison Finney.

Finney is widely remembered for the spectacular results of his meetings. His main contribution, however, lay in systematizing and nearly canonizing the methods of populistic revivalism. He spelled out his theological underpinnings in his Systematic Theology, but expounded most of his methodology in his Memoirs and his Revivals of Religion.

For Finney, the normal Christian life is one of decline. Left to themselves, believers are easily distracted by the cares of the world and they will quickly backslide. In order to interrupt this backsliding, their attention must be refocused from temporal things onto spiritual things.

In order to do that, the preacher first has to get their attention. On the one hand (according to Finney), this required him to eliminate the preaching of any doctrines that were not immediately practical in nature. On the other hand, gathering a crowd and gaining their attention required novelty.

Finney insisted that, since God has not ordained any specific methods, the preacher is free to develop his own methodology. Effectiveness is the key to choosing techniques. Finney argued for the necessity of novelty, and he suggested that Christians should look at techniques that had proven successful in the worlds of commerce, politics, and entertainment.

For Finney, appropriating these techniques was an aspect of spiritual wisdom. Indeed, the spiritual wisdom of any preacher or Christian leader could be gauged by counting the numbers who responded. Finney was quite explicit at this point: “The amount of a minister’s success in winning souls (other things being equal) invariably decides the amount of wisdom he has exercised in the discharge of his office.”1

These ideas put a new twist on the old populism. They had the effect of pegging the internal methods of the church to whatever techniques were dominant in the surrounding secular culture. They also linked, for the first time, Christian gathering to secular entertainment. The results of this move would prove to be profound.

The time when Finney was experimenting with his new measures and articulating his ideas was the very time when popular culture was emerging for the first time. A discussion of popular culture will require separate treatment. At this point, only two observations need to be offered. First, popular culture is mass-produced culture, and as such it could not exist before the invention of the steam-powered printing press in the early 1800s. Second, popular culture is commercial culture, and as such it is intrinsically secularizing and sensationalizing.

Finney’s methods were developed just prior to the explosion of popular culture. He could not have foreseen the wedding that was about to occur between his methods and the new direction in culture, nor could he have foreseen where the newly-invented popular culture was eventually going to lead. Even so, the adaptation to popular culture came to characterize American Christianity during the latter half of the Nineteenth Century.

All of this occurred long before Fundamentalism arose as an identifiable movement. Nevertheless, populism was a significant aspect of the milieu out of which Fundamentalism emerged. Certainly Fundamentalism reflected the evangelical context that gave it birth.

The results of populism can be traced throughout the history of the fundamentalist movement. Fundamentalism has typically displayed the populist contempt for tradition, for learning, and for an educated ministry. It has defined spiritual success in terms of numerical results. It has envisioned Christian gathering (one hesitates to call it worship) as a form of amusement, and it has struggled to maintain itself in the face of a continually-changing popular culture. Wherever Fundamentalism has flourished, it has done so by appealing to and building upon some aspect of the popular culture.

Many will object that this description does not fairly characterize all Fundamentalists, and that objection certainly carries weight. Nevertheless, as Les Ollila once observed, “The problem with pragmatism is that it does work.”2 When a less populist version of Fundamentalism has been forced to make common cause with a more populist version, the more populist version has almost always dominated through sheer force of numbers. The result is that today virtually all churches, and certainly all institutions within Fundamentalism, have been influenced by the populist outlook.

People like to pride themselves upon being able to make their own choices and develop their own opinions. The fact is, though, that not everyone is equally qualified to make every choice or to hold every opinion. When unqualified people are asked to develop opinions and to make choices, they invariably look for leadership—often, the kind of leadership that will lead them to believe that they are acting on their own, while manipulating or stampeding them into doing its will. That kind of demagoguery has come to typify some branches of Fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is a great idea. It deserves to be preserved and defended. Almost universally, however, the Fundamentalist movement either began or has become populist. Indeed, many Fundamentalists defend populist perspectives as if they are important aspects of the Christian faith. The populist dynamic helps to explain how Fundamentalism has reached the point at which it stands today.

1 Charles Grandison Finney, Lectures on Revivals of Religion, Christian Classics reprint edition (Virginia Beach, VA: CBN University Press, 1978), 189.

2 Les Ollila, forward to Douglas R. McLachlan, Reclaiming Authentic Fundamentalism (Independence, Mo.: American Association of Christian Schools, 1993), vi.

Frescoes in an Old Church

Walter de la Mare (1873-1956)

Six centuries now have gone
Since, one by one,
These stones were laid,
And in air’s vacancy
This beauty made.

They who thus reared them
Their long rest have won;
Ours now this heritage—
To guard, preserve, delight in, brood upon;
And in these transitory fragments scan
The immortal longings in the soul of Man.


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

Discussion

[Brent Marshall] Hey, Joel, did someone gore your ox? You throw quite a few barbs at Kevin, enough that I am having a hard time following your thought between them. It seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. How do you figure that?
IMO, Joel has some points if Dr. Bauder’s comments are projected without restraint. I think Dr. Bauder is talking about matters of degree, not concept. I can see both perspectives. Bauder’s position, projected along the same vector, would lead to what Joel is assuming him to be saying. But I don’t think Bauder is going that far.

Perhaps a good follow-up paper would be, “The Priesthood of All Believers before and after Populism.” In a way, that is the doctrine that is the issue, but I don’t see anyone denying that here. Equal access to the Father, equal status in Christ, and the right to challenge with the Word of God seems to be a given (at least, I hope it is!). That is not the same as claiming equal competence or equally weighted respect for an opinion. I personally have trouble with unmodified congregational government for this reason.

In my area (central or north-central Indiana), there are lots of guys who simply “go into the ministry” as pastors without any formal (and sometimes not much informal) training. I know one man who did this 25 years ago, but he knows his Bible and doctrine and is a better pastor than a number of seminary or Bible college grads I have met, IMO. But I know of a number of others who barely know Genesis from Revelation. But, because of a populous ethos, nobody in those churches seems to mind.

People who study a subject at great length generally do know more about that subject (or domain) than those who do not. As long as those who are trained are open to challenge from the Word, I think you can have both what Kevin and Joel imply.

"The Midrash Detective"

Brent,

I’m mixing humor with a point. Go back and read my post one more time. I start out by saying that it looks like Kevin is going to defend some kind of an anti-populist approach to leadership, wisdom, direction, etc….of NT believers, Christianity, ministry, in favor of giving an unequal wait to the “experts.” Kevin is trying to show that guys like me believe the way we do because we’ve been conditioned by a certain philosophical bent that has impacted fundamentalism, evangelicalism as well as other “sub-groups” within American culture. He’s brilliant and at many levels I’m sure he’s right. I do believe that there is exegetical, theological and even philosophical reasons to not agree with where he’s going or where he’s leaning. So my response is “if you are saying this…..then I’m responding this way…..”

But I know Kevin. Brent….I don’t know if I know Kevin…..Perhaps only his mother and wife knows Kevin. Let me re-word that. I think I know Kevin.

I know he is a Baptist (at least in polity….I think in Worship he’s more “high-brow Presbyterian!”) and I know his “congregational” convictions will not let him go as far as he wants to go (IMO). Of course we don’t know exactly where that is because he hasn’t finished his series (a point I tried to allude to). Kevin has been at the same time my favorite former teacher and my least favorite! He is a philosophical purist…..He really dislikes pragmatism (To the point that he hands much of it to the likes of Finney-ism). At some level I am a pragmatist…..hopefully not on the line of John Dewey and hopefully not at the expense of truth and a Biblical Philosophy. If Kevin believes something to be philosophically so, it is an absolute with him. That drives me nuts. For Kevin there is white and there is black and there is almost no grey. That drives me nuts! Several of my closest friends I think believe he walks on water. That really drives me nuts! There were times when I was in his class at Central he would go off philosophically in some of these discussions and I wanted to wad up my paper into a little ball and throw it at him….but when one is in the postgrad department, you don’t do that to the head of the post grad department….until after you have your degree! Especially when this guy is helping you finish your final project. So I nodded and smiled then like a Joel Tetreau Bobble head! God forgive my duplicity! No longer Brent!

So I’m getting a thought or two in and trying to have fun with him/this at the same time. There is a part of Kevin I really, really appreciate. But there is a part of his writings and approach that really, really bothers me. I worry about the guys that study under him. I don’t want them to pick up everything that Kevin has to offer. My prayer is that if they have three years of Kevin, they are baptized into a church ministry to get the “real-life-issues” of ministry in their soul….otherwise they will come out of seminary blowing the average guy away with everything! I’m not suggesting he is at motive “an elitist”….but his approach will lead to elitism in a variety of ways IMO. I don’t want that…..so I fight against his influence while trying not to fight against him (not easily done). On the other hand….there is so much he brings to the table historically, theologically and just great observations about ministry in general that I know have helped and will help those that study under him. Oh well….He’s in Minnisota, I’m in Arizona, I like him from a distance……and he hears of me once every three years…..it’s a beautiful thing.

I promise you, he’d understand because If I had the influence he did (and I don’t), and he had a chance to present the “other side” specifically where he was/is uncomfortable with my approach….he would do the exact same thing…..In English, Latin and Logic. I have to use what few tools I have (which is not much compared to the Bauder Tool Box!) combined with humor (something I’m not sure Kevin has).

Don’t read more into my friendly joust that you should. He referred to my leadership once as being a leader of the illiterate because of my lack of ability to spell….This sort of thing goes both ways. I’m sorry if you’re uncomfortable….but I’ll continue to do this even with you being uncomfortable. There’s too much at stake here IMO. Even if my leadership is limited to the illiterate….I care deeply enough for them and their ability to understand and know God as well as Kevin does……to show up for this chat.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Joel,

I appreciated your lengthy response. Can I ask a question for clarification?

I see elitism in ministry; it’s not uncommon among Presbyterians, for example, or any group that has high ordination requirements and prides itself on rigorous orthodoxy. However, I would not accuse PCA or OPC as groups of encouraging elitism (maybe they do, but I don’t know enough to warrant such a charge); rather, I think every emphasis has trajectories that immature people are likely to realize. So, if you emphasis practicality, which is a good thing, and common sense, which is also good - even if you do this with balance and regard for theoretical knowledge - if those are your main emphases, your students/interns (whoever) will likely develop those traits into the immature and wrong-headed pragmatism and anti-intellectualism that characterizes so much of American religious life.

Essentially, then, I am wondering if you see Bauder’s positions, or even Bauder’s sensibilities, dispositions, etc. themselves as part of the problem, or rather that you think they, in themselves, are good and fine, but they will almost inevitably lead among many less mature seminarians and pastors to an elitism (not sure what exactly this means, but I’m assuming its pejorative, which is enough to go on)?

Not being personally acquainted with either you or Kevin, I came at your first post as a blank slate. I commented to my wife that your post was awfully snarky. Perhaps, if you wanted to tweak him and make a point, your post may have been better as an email, since at least some of it is based on your past experiences with him. Just a thought.

I remember an old saying that used to circulate, “It takes a pastor 10 years to get over seminary.” Part of the problem is that, when you swell your brain with information and study and discipline — and you have grasped some really deep perspectives — you want to use what you learn, even if people do not want to hear it and cannot comprehend it. Bringing the cookies down to a lower shelf is a difficult task.

Joel’s comments are based upon his perceptions from previous experiences. But I think it is important for the rest of us to look at the actual words Dr. Bauder has penned and respond to that. I do not think his actual words are as far “down the road” as Joel suggests, even if he is perhaps going too far in other writings. Sometimes an individual who is further away from the typical center is not seeking to bring people to his position, just nudge them more in that direction. I think that might be what is happening here.

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it’s the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).

"The Midrash Detective"

Charlie,

I want to take a moment and thank you for your response. I would like to let you know that I stand very close to where you stand. You said,
[Charlie]

I think you are making the same mistake that is talked about here - a kind of hermeneutical populism. The mistake is failing to recognize the stratified nature of Christian theology and Scriptural teaching, as well as failing to consider that the Spirit ‘s guidance may be mediated indirectly, rather than directly to the individual…

So, first, the stratified nature of the Scripture…

What makes the difference, or, how do we move up levels? My answer and yours, I assume: the Holy Spirit. So, we’ve stated that every Christian has the same Holy Spirit, yet the Spirit is what differentiates people’s understanding. Here’s the harmonization - the Spirit works through gradual transformation, and He does this usually through mediate agents. We can think of Romans 12, where we are told that we are conformed to Christ by the transforming of our minds. This transformation, surely, is a lifelong process and includes both mental improvement and the removal of sinful impediments to our proper thinking about God. So, God is not at the same place with everyone…

But what we really need to discuss, to answer your question, is what methods the Spirit uses to accomplish this transformation. I submit a very non-populist, non-pietist answer to that question. The Holy Spirit does not pour knowledge into your head like an “inner light,” or like a computer download. Rather, Ephesians 4 tells us that God gave us gifts to build us up in our doctrine - teachers (among others). God, then, works through these people to build up other people so that we “all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son” (v. 13). Now, God has given teachers to the church in every age, and if we neglect the witness of the teachers of the past, we are missing out on that much of the Spirit’s work.

Now, obviously, God Spirit does work in other ways. I merely stress the above because it receives virtually no emphasis in the American “personal devotions” culture. I believe in personal Bible study, but I also note that the New Testament has a far greater emphasis on the corporate body and the teaching function of the elders, a hard thing for individualist Americans to swallow. So, in summary, I believe a person’s understanding of Scripture will grow to the extent that the Spirit is working in him, and that a person can hinder the work of the Spirit in him by refusing to partake of ALL the Spirit’s work, which is mediated through church teachers past and present, the Scripture, the edification of the body, family, and the Sacraments.
I would agree with you point for point in this answer. Perhaps, in trying to counter what I believe to be an extreme, I overstated my case. But I do stand on the thought that an extreme interpretation and application of the anti-populist view would lead to an elitism in the same vein as medieval Roman Catholicism (only the priest and the church have the ability to rightly divide the Word of Truth).

I am a teacher, I have done everything my time and financial situation have allowed me to do in order to prepare myself to be the best teacher possible. I would say a hearty “AMEN” to your explanation of Ephesians 4 and the gift of teachers and teaching to the church. However, the point I hoped to get across in mentioning the doctrine of Illumination and the concept of the “body” is that, as a teacher, I need to realize that I am not the only one with answers. Certainly God has placed a greater responsibility and accountability upon me because of this gifting and preparation, but I must in humility recognize that I have something to learn and gain even from the “youngest” member of my church. That’s what I was trying to say. An anti-populist view would negate this.

I also have to agree heartily with Joel T. and I thank him for his further explanation. As a Baptist, I accept a congregational form of church government. No matter what the populist roots of fundamentalism, and no matter what wrong there may be in populism, I cannot reject this distinctive which I hold dear solely on philosophical grounds. My doctrine must be derived from careful exegesis, not philosophy or rejection of philosophy.

Again, this all takes some private thinking and some interaction, but I believe this is all important for us to do. Thanks again to Dr. Bauder for this great series.

Shawn Haynie

[Ed Vasicek]

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it’s the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).
I don’t think there is a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better. Bauder, as a Reformed-ish Baptist, obviously can’t go back before the 17th century for a whole lot of support. As a Dispensationalist, he can’t go back farther than the 19th. The point that has been made repeatedly by several people on this board is that a perspective on the past is necessary for a perspective on the present. Also, I think we would all agree that certain select authors of the past were so influential that they become significant for anyone wishing to study the groups and ideas that flowed from them. Bauder’s explanation of Finney, for example, was not to imitate Finney, but to show how some of the problems of 20th century Fundamentalism got there. You also can’t accuse him of hagiography, because he hasn’t put up any person as a blameless ideal.

Bauder’s point is that the past is important, not that it is good. His own writing and theological positions show a critical reception of history.

My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com

Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin

Joseph,

Good questions. Let me ponder them.

For the rest of you.

Bauder and I have a relationship. I think it’s a good one. He can (and has) disagreed with me in various forums and that in no way has threated my love for him. In this forum we talk clearly. I happen to be passionate on a few items here. I don’t think I’ve crossed lines. He speaks publically and is responded to publically. It’s hard not to separate other discussions where these elements “touch” from the present one.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

I appreciate Joseph’s observation about emphases & trajectories. It’s true that any emphasis goes a certain direction—eventually off track—if it’s followed too closely for too long. Common sense takes you to bad places if you just run with it mindlessly. Populism: likewise but even faster. Reverencing historical theology? Different places but also damaging. Reverencing academic disciplines? Likewise (but I don’t think all of these undisciplined emphases lead to equally bad places).

I cannot believe that an emphasis on common-sense reading of Scripture (by believers who always have more than mere common sense going for them), can ever lead to as spiritually unhealthy a place as an emphasis on academics that is inadequately disciplined by Scripture and (to a far lesser degree) the realities of life outside the ivory tower.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Charlie]
[Ed Vasicek]

I did find the second article off target and disappointing. Its logical fallacy was obvious (ancient church leaders are somehow to be more heavily weighted than current ones; it’s the old problem of hagiography and undue reverence for the vintage).
I don’t think there is a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better. Bauder, as a Reformed-ish Baptist, obviously can’t go back before the 17th century for a whole lot of support. As a Dispensationalist, he can’t go back farther than the 19th. The point that has been made repeatedly by several people on this board is that a perspective on the past is necessary for a perspective on the present. Also, I think we would all agree that certain select authors of the past were so influential that they become significant for anyone wishing to study the groups and ideas that flowed from them. Bauder’s explanation of Finney, for example, was not to imitate Finney, but to show how some of the problems of 20th century Fundamentalism got there. You also can’t accuse him of hagiography, because he hasn’t put up any person as a blameless ideal.

Bauder’s point is that the past is important, not that it is good. His own writing and theological positions show a critical reception of history.
I agree with your thinking, Charlie, but I disagree that “there is not a single person on SI who actually believes that older is better.” I think there is often a certain aura associated with quoting Augustine that would not be there quoting F.F. Bruce, for example. I do not think that MOST of us at SI are there, however. In the greater evangelical world, it is almost rampant.

I do think that Bauder’s second article was aimed not at recognizing we can learn from others — but, particularly, that we could and should learn from others from centuries gone by. Did you not interpret him thusly? I am for looking into the Jewish roots of our faith, and trying to paint a Second Temple context to help me understand the New Testament, but I think we are in a much better position to interpret Scripture than, say, a 4th century leader.

Even Rick Warren quotes Catholic mystics.

"The Midrash Detective"

[Joel Tetreau] I’m mixing humor with a point.

[SNIP]

So I’m getting a thought or two in and trying to have fun with him/this at the same time.

[SNIP]

Don’t read more into my friendly joust that you should.
I have come back to this several times this evening, thinking how to respond — for the details that I snipped do not characterize Kevin fairly — without turning the thread further into a discussion of Kevin rather than his ideas. (By the way, if you do not know that Kevin has a sense of humor, you do not know him well at all.) Not having identified a good path in that direction, I will simply say that what you are characterizing as humor is coming across as derision. This is particularly ironic because it sounds so much like what you term “Type A” fundamentalism.

Moreover, you are losing a real opportunity to do what you say that you want to do: warn folks about the ideas with which you disagree. I am one of the ones trying to figure much of this out, and to put it simply, what you are terming humor is getting in the way of the ideas. I do not want to come across as faulting you for having a concern or disagreeing, but your point is getting lost.

Now, to return to my prior observation, it seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please clarify, but if so, then how do you reach that conclusion? As a Baptist, I believe in soul liberty and the individual priesthood of the believer, and I believe in congregational polity. But I do not see how that would lead me to accept populism. For example, earlier in the thread, Ed writes:
[Ed Vasicek] Equal access to the Father, equal status in Christ, and the right to challenge with the Word of God seems to be a given (at least, I hope it is!). That is not the same as claiming equal competence or equally weighted respect for an opinion.
I agree with both statements, and I think that they encapsulate a key issue here. It seems that the second statement runs counter to populism. Am I missing something?

Things That Matter

As the quantity of communication increases, so does its quality decline; and the most important sign of this is that it is no longer acceptable to say so.--RScruton

[Brent Marshall] it seems that underlying your comments is the notion that a belief in congregational polity somehow justifies an acceptance of populism. Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please clarify, but if so, then how do you reach that conclusion? As a Baptist, I believe in soul liberty and the individual priesthood of the believer, and I believe in congregational polity. But I do not see how that would lead me to accept populism.
I got the impression he was saying that utterly rejecting populism would require rejecting congregational polity… and Kevin does sound like he’s rejecting it utterly (though I think that’s not the case… either that or he would define it more narrowly and utterly reject the more narrowly defined idea).

I did have a similar thought myself, but I’d say it alot differently. That is, if one argues so passionately against (apparently) anything that smacks even a little bit of of Common Sense Realism or populism, how can you—at the end of the day—be a dispensationalist? But—as some have suggested—I may be incorrect in my impression that he is as down on these ideas as all that. But that he sees anything more than the tiniest bit of good in these ways of thinking seems unlikely to me given what he has written recently and also in the past. So I am intrigued to see, someday, how one can be diametrically opposed to Common Sense Realism (even in the watered down version in American Fundamentalism) and populism and still hold to dispensationalism.

As for congregationalism, though, I don’t think it requires any populism. You don’t have to believe that the masses have much of value to say/do in order to believe God instructed His church to make many decisions collectively. Since the “ordinary person” outside the church is not Spirit indwelt… well, what goes on when a congregation discusses and decides is something else.

Still, Kevin seems to see any populism among believers as a pretty unhealthy thing as well.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Joel,

As you note, I am not at all offended by your disagreement with me. I remain very grateful for the pastoral contribution that you have made in the lives of my close family. I am also grateful for the personal encouragement that you have offered at difficult moments in my own life.

I am, however, concerned about the following statement:

“He referred to my leadership once as being a leader of the illiterate because of my lack of ability to spell….This sort of thing goes both ways.”

If this is what is motivating your comments, we might need to take a step back. I do not wish to have any perception, either in public or private, that there exists some personal animus between us. Still, I cannot recall having ever connected your name with any such comments. If I have done so, then I am eager to apologize. Can you please remind me of when and where these comments were made?

I really, really hate to address private offenses in public, but this offense is now evidently a public matter. I would like to see it resolved.

Blessings, my brother.

Kevin,

Will call you. For sake of the public note, there is no “angst” just “disagreement” here. The comment you made is little concern but I’m thrilled you would go to the length you are. We will review this together. All is well.

If you think it is needed we can make a joint statement about what you said, how I took it and what our conclusion is.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Joel,

Thank you for your offer to call, but that is really not what is needed right now.

You have lit up a good many pixels in this thread talking about me personally. Most of what you say is not very flattering. That’s alright—you are entitled to your opinion and you have a right to express it. Doubtless there are plenty of times when I am arrogant, obtuse, and humorless. For you to point these things out does not lead me to think less of you.

But then you also make a specific accusation. This accusation amounts to a charge of having slandered you. You cite this charge publicly as a justification for some of the rather harsh judgments that you have also expressed publicly. It is a serious accusation.

So we now have a public scandal. The best and most Christian way of dealing with the scandal is for me to apologize publicly for wrongs done. The problem is that I cannot remember having done the wrong! I cannot recall any occasion upon which I have connected your name with the ugly things that you say I said about you.

A private call would have been appropriate before the public accusation was made, but it is hardly the solution to a public scandal. Please tell me where I have directed these offensive comments against you. I have every wish to acknowledge a wrong and to ask forgiveness, but I find myself in the uncomfortable position of not even being able to remember committing the wrong! Was it in private conversation? Did you hear about this from a third party? Was it a public statement? How long ago did it occur?

Now that this has been made public, I do not see how we can try to resolve it simply behind closed doors.

For what it’s worth, I think you’re a better pastor than I have ever been (and you may recall that I was in pastoral ministry for fifteen years before coming to Central Seminary). I respect you for it. So let’s get this squared away.

Kevin