A modest proposal: No student loans till 30
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I don’t like to use the word “crisis” unless people are actually running around the streets on fire and screaming, but this whole student loan mess is becoming a bit of a problem. Student loans top both credit card and auto loan debt…
And a college degree just ain’t worth what it used to be. I wonder if this will shift parents and students to less expensive online and local options for higher ed.
Sadly, they are not usually much less expensive, and sometimes the same price as on-campus classes.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Chip Van Emmerik] Sadly, they are not usually much less expensive, and sometimes the same price as on-campus classes.
It takes a bit of effort and research, but we’ve planned college, via CLEPing, online courses, and local courses, for our son Noah. As the numbers stand now, he can earn a Bachelor of Science in Psychology for about 15Gs. It’s not impossible, you just have to do some serious shopping around.
I think that’s the direction that higher ed can (and should) go in anyway. Life’s a buffet- grab a spoon!
Learn how to develop iPhone apps, and I have a job for you making $80K as an 18 year old.
How about the proposal I had for my college tuition…financial aid was tied directly to academic and civic responsibility…bad grades or participation in wild partying and the financial aid was cut off for the next semester. Their help didn’t pay the whole tuition bill but was greatly appreciated. Thanks mom and dad.
My son just graduated from the U of Minnesoata w a degree in Mech Engineering
He will turn 30 next month so he has had a busy decade since HS graduation; but he graduated debt free.
He served 6 years in the USMC (including service in Iraq).
He started college 6 years ago. At first he purposed to major in Economics, but changed to Engineering 4 years ago.
He worked a number of jobs: hardware store, at a major bank, internship at 3m, and the Army reserve. He continues as a Staff Sgt with the Army reserve. He graduated one week ago. He is now relaxing in for a week and will start at Seagate as an engineer on 5/21.
Things have been tight financially - for example his car is a 20 year old Toyota that is a complete beater, but he graduated debt free.
He will turn 30 next month so he has had a busy decade since HS graduation; but he graduated debt free.
He served 6 years in the USMC (including service in Iraq).
He started college 6 years ago. At first he purposed to major in Economics, but changed to Engineering 4 years ago.
He worked a number of jobs: hardware store, at a major bank, internship at 3m, and the Army reserve. He continues as a Staff Sgt with the Army reserve. He graduated one week ago. He is now relaxing in for a week and will start at Seagate as an engineer on 5/21.
Things have been tight financially - for example his car is a 20 year old Toyota that is a complete beater, but he graduated debt free.
Jim,
I went a similar route - minus the military service. My BA took 7.5 years to finish at a Christian college with no help from parents, or anyone else, but I finished debt free. Some of my former classmates are still paying off their loans 15-20 years later. Debt is always bad, but especially for those intending to enter vocational ministry.
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Susan,
Thanks for making my point.
I went a similar route - minus the military service. My BA took 7.5 years to finish at a Christian college with no help from parents, or anyone else, but I finished debt free. Some of my former classmates are still paying off their loans 15-20 years later. Debt is always bad, but especially for those intending to enter vocational ministry.
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Susan,
Thanks for making my point.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
You know, I think this is the direction future higher ed is going to go. However, I’m not convinced it’s a good thing. I am taking doctoral classes right now via internet. I have taken modular classes and traditional classes. I have been an educator for 15 years. Condensing classes might save money, but it sacrifices education in the bargain. Besides what is lost in the classroom, students also lose the sharpening that happens among students who discuss what they are learning - regardless of the major.
The underlying problem is the increasing availability of student loans. I know, cutting back the loans might mean some kids miss out on higher education - though there’s no reason more can’t do what Jim’s son and I did to get through college. But the readily available supplies of cash mean colleges can continue raising their prices without any threat to themselves. I am currently teaching middle school history. One of my favorite topics for my students there applies here. It comes from Ronald Reagan’s first inaugural address. He said, “Government is not the solution to the problem; government is the problem.” Government’s so-called solution is killing higher education.
The underlying problem is the increasing availability of student loans. I know, cutting back the loans might mean some kids miss out on higher education - though there’s no reason more can’t do what Jim’s son and I did to get through college. But the readily available supplies of cash mean colleges can continue raising their prices without any threat to themselves. I am currently teaching middle school history. One of my favorite topics for my students there applies here. It comes from Ronald Reagan’s first inaugural address. He said, “Government is not the solution to the problem; government is the problem.” Government’s so-called solution is killing higher education.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Internet classes will not always be like they are now. With the easy availability of internet teleconferencing, there will be no problem with classroom discussions and participation just as happens in the traditional setting now. In fact, I know of someone who was at our church before he graduated who took some high-school classes in that fashion — his attendance could be verified online, and if he wasn’t connected, visible to the teacher and able to respond, he didn’t get credit for that class.
There will certainly be some hands-on type classes that will require physical presence, but those will continue to decline, especially with remote facilities that do not require an entire university structure. There is no reason that in the future there will need to be 100’s of universities all that have an expensive building program, endowments, etc. In fact, with the right kind of licensing, and spreading out of grading work, there’s no reason every budding lawyer could not take class from Harvard Law professors, or engineering from MIT, etc.
School does not need to be as expensive as it is for students to get a really good education. Most of the money is going to support an old-fashioned (some might say outdated) system that will need to change at some point, same as the film development industry, or paper printing, etc., etc. It will take some time for this to change completely, but I rather doubt that college for my (as yet non-existent) grandchildren will look anything like what it does today. I’m sure some will say that that will make education suffer, but I doubt that if done correctly, it will be as bad as will be predicted, and in fact will probably have some advantages over what is done now. It’s a surety that the education inflation happening at the rate it is will have some fallout. I think the colleges should be thinking ahead to what it will mean for the students rather than trying to simply preserve facilities and jobs. The current model is completely unsustainable long-term, and the sooner that is realized and planned-for, the better.
There will certainly be some hands-on type classes that will require physical presence, but those will continue to decline, especially with remote facilities that do not require an entire university structure. There is no reason that in the future there will need to be 100’s of universities all that have an expensive building program, endowments, etc. In fact, with the right kind of licensing, and spreading out of grading work, there’s no reason every budding lawyer could not take class from Harvard Law professors, or engineering from MIT, etc.
School does not need to be as expensive as it is for students to get a really good education. Most of the money is going to support an old-fashioned (some might say outdated) system that will need to change at some point, same as the film development industry, or paper printing, etc., etc. It will take some time for this to change completely, but I rather doubt that college for my (as yet non-existent) grandchildren will look anything like what it does today. I’m sure some will say that that will make education suffer, but I doubt that if done correctly, it will be as bad as will be predicted, and in fact will probably have some advantages over what is done now. It’s a surety that the education inflation happening at the rate it is will have some fallout. I think the colleges should be thinking ahead to what it will mean for the students rather than trying to simply preserve facilities and jobs. The current model is completely unsustainable long-term, and the sooner that is realized and planned-for, the better.
Dave Barnhart
I continue to think there is something significant about presence which is lost when you don’t have actual presence. It’s why people can have CDs and MP3s of their favorite groups, but there is nothing like the live experience (or so they tell me). I think the physical, personal interaction is a huge part of education. You can’t replicate the value of face to face even with webcams and instant messenging of some sort.
I think we will return to a more vocational training system and away from a liberal arts education. Even now, aren’t liberal arts educations increasingly vocational or specific in nature? I don’t know if that is good or bad. Probably bad over all, but I think “liberal arts” probably has a double entendre due to the atmosphere of higher education and that isn’t a good thing.
BTW, there’s a site (I can’t remember what it is) where you can already take some of MIT’s classes for free though not for credit. Same with many other schools, including seminaries like Covenant Seminary. So you can avail yourself of teaching and knowledge, but I wonder if education might still require face to face presence and interaction.
I think we will return to a more vocational training system and away from a liberal arts education. Even now, aren’t liberal arts educations increasingly vocational or specific in nature? I don’t know if that is good or bad. Probably bad over all, but I think “liberal arts” probably has a double entendre due to the atmosphere of higher education and that isn’t a good thing.
BTW, there’s a site (I can’t remember what it is) where you can already take some of MIT’s classes for free though not for credit. Same with many other schools, including seminaries like Covenant Seminary. So you can avail yourself of teaching and knowledge, but I wonder if education might still require face to face presence and interaction.
Larry, I think you raise some good points.
I’ve taught in traditional classroom settings and was in training for online teaching when I left that organization. All the teachers in the online program had already been traditional classroom teachers. Many of them replied that the online environment engendered better student interaction, a finding that surprised me. I was a bit skeptical of the online classes. However, especially shy students can find the format liberating. They’re more likely to express their opinions, because they don’t feel as much peer pressure from their classmates. Also, each class had a TA that took questions in private chat. The private chat feature was great for students who didn’t grasp a concept but would never “interrupt” a class to ask for clarification. So, I think temperament plays a role in how students react to it.
As for presence, I think that’s worth considering. I had several large lecture classes in college. With 400 students in a straight-lecture format, does the physical presence of the professor really matter? A 1-on-1 chat over coffee is definitely a more “present” experience than an email conversation, but I think a sustained email conversation or a live online small-group format is still much better than being a name on a roster of 30+ students. My hope is that the technological options we have will let us focus our physical resources in the areas that need them most. For a seminary, maybe an intro NT class could be delivered just as well online, but a sermon preparation class would best stay in a traditional classroom format.
For better or worse, I think a hybrid teacher/TA system is likely to form. Think of a large class of 500 students that all have the same main professor and curriculum, but is broken into groups of 10-20 with TAs who work with them on a more individual basis.
I’ve taught in traditional classroom settings and was in training for online teaching when I left that organization. All the teachers in the online program had already been traditional classroom teachers. Many of them replied that the online environment engendered better student interaction, a finding that surprised me. I was a bit skeptical of the online classes. However, especially shy students can find the format liberating. They’re more likely to express their opinions, because they don’t feel as much peer pressure from their classmates. Also, each class had a TA that took questions in private chat. The private chat feature was great for students who didn’t grasp a concept but would never “interrupt” a class to ask for clarification. So, I think temperament plays a role in how students react to it.
As for presence, I think that’s worth considering. I had several large lecture classes in college. With 400 students in a straight-lecture format, does the physical presence of the professor really matter? A 1-on-1 chat over coffee is definitely a more “present” experience than an email conversation, but I think a sustained email conversation or a live online small-group format is still much better than being a name on a roster of 30+ students. My hope is that the technological options we have will let us focus our physical resources in the areas that need them most. For a seminary, maybe an intro NT class could be delivered just as well online, but a sermon preparation class would best stay in a traditional classroom format.
For better or worse, I think a hybrid teacher/TA system is likely to form. Think of a large class of 500 students that all have the same main professor and curriculum, but is broken into groups of 10-20 with TAs who work with them on a more individual basis.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
My daughter’s plan:
1. Took post-secondary as a Senior in H.S.: took her Sr. Year at a community college paid by the state. Starts her 1st year of college as a Sophomore
2. Began working at 14: 2 years at a pizza place … Followed by 6 years at Caribou coffee (like a Starbucks)
3. Spread 3 years of college over four. Rose to supervisor at coffee shop
4. Graduated w a degree in finance from Univ of Minnesota at Mankato
5. In her final semester gets a 5,000 credit card w no interest for 1 yr
6. Before graduation receives a signing bonus of $ 5,000 … Payable after 90 days of employment
7. Graduates and tours Europe for 10 weeks
8. Starts job w 3M
9. Receives signing bonus after 90 days and pays the CC off
10. Debt free education
1. Took post-secondary as a Senior in H.S.: took her Sr. Year at a community college paid by the state. Starts her 1st year of college as a Sophomore
2. Began working at 14: 2 years at a pizza place … Followed by 6 years at Caribou coffee (like a Starbucks)
3. Spread 3 years of college over four. Rose to supervisor at coffee shop
4. Graduated w a degree in finance from Univ of Minnesota at Mankato
5. In her final semester gets a 5,000 credit card w no interest for 1 yr
6. Before graduation receives a signing bonus of $ 5,000 … Payable after 90 days of employment
7. Graduates and tours Europe for 10 weeks
8. Starts job w 3M
9. Receives signing bonus after 90 days and pays the CC off
10. Debt free education
She had at least one scholarship each year. No single one that big … Maybe between $ 1,000 and $ 2,000 each year
We paid all of her auto costs except a transmission repair that we split w her
The last two years we bought a new Saturn because the previous clunker was too expensive to repair. We sold the 2 yr old Saturn to her after graduation
We paid all of her auto costs except a transmission repair that we split w her
The last two years we bought a new Saturn because the previous clunker was too expensive to repair. We sold the 2 yr old Saturn to her after graduation
Since we now realize that we’ll have to work to age 75, working on your degree to age 30-35 is not a terrible thing. You don’t have to finish in standard 4-6 years.
I’d be very careful getting my online degree at certain online colleges. Definitely do your research. Just because you save more money than traditional doesn’t mean you get the same opportunities upon graduation.
I will say, that making it more difficult to borrow for college will cause people to make wiser decisions on the major they choose. Based more on what makes them more employable rather than what what be cool to study…
I’d be very careful getting my online degree at certain online colleges. Definitely do your research. Just because you save more money than traditional doesn’t mean you get the same opportunities upon graduation.
I will say, that making it more difficult to borrow for college will cause people to make wiser decisions on the major they choose. Based more on what makes them more employable rather than what what be cool to study…
I have found that many employers aren’t giving as much weight to brand name colleges as they used to. Once upon a time, attending certain schools granted automatic ‘status’ and a leg up. But in many fields, employers are giving heavy consideration to a student’s actual accomplishments and the recommendations from their previous employers, rather than the brand name on their degree.
If you are using a variety of sources for higher ed, you MUST consider how and IF credits transfer. That’s a biggie.
One of the points the article makes is the stupid use of college as a sort of stepping stone to independence, a place to party away from mom and dad, or a way to ‘find yourself’. None of these are, IMO, adequate reason to spend thousands of dollars, only to declare bankruptcy later and let taxpayers foot the bill.
If you are using a variety of sources for higher ed, you MUST consider how and IF credits transfer. That’s a biggie.
One of the points the article makes is the stupid use of college as a sort of stepping stone to independence, a place to party away from mom and dad, or a way to ‘find yourself’. None of these are, IMO, adequate reason to spend thousands of dollars, only to declare bankruptcy later and let taxpayers foot the bill.
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