Let’s stop asking, “How many people go to your church?”
As I posted in the comments at Challies’ blog- We ask many questions of which we aren’t so much interested in the answer as we are attempting to show friendly concern. I agree that we should take the time, if we truly are interested, to ask better questions than the usual conversational throwaways.
It reminded me of a discussion with a friend of mine about our elderly parents- don’t ask an older person how they feel unless you want to know about every ache and pain, recent doctor visit or hospitalization, prescription with accompanying side effects, etc… But what is wrong with that, exactly? When we ask someone how they are feeling, do we ask hoping they won’t actually tell us?
It’s the same way IMO with asking someone about their church- What do we really want to know? And are we asking questions they can comfortably answer?
It reminded me of a discussion with a friend of mine about our elderly parents- don’t ask an older person how they feel unless you want to know about every ache and pain, recent doctor visit or hospitalization, prescription with accompanying side effects, etc… But what is wrong with that, exactly? When we ask someone how they are feeling, do we ask hoping they won’t actually tell us?
It’s the same way IMO with asking someone about their church- What do we really want to know? And are we asking questions they can comfortably answer?
I’ve been involved in a church plant for the last four years that will soon be self supporting (along with Ron Bean, who I met here online before I met him at church! Thanks SI). Yesterday I had a brief phone call with a pastor who had been giving oversight over our plant. We talked about how many people we are running, and the numbers are up. I do think that though numbers may not be a sign of spiritual health, it may be a good indicator of financial health. If I’m ever asked how many people we have, I always try to add in a few other spiritual indicators (so and so was converted and baptized, qualified elders and deacons are being trained and added. ect.) I don’t think we need to go to the extreme of never asking about numbers.
It’s kind of like the Dow Jones Industrial Average. It doesn’t really mean that much about the economy. It’s just 30 companies. But taken over time, it can be at least one barometer of health. If during one season a church was at 300, and four months later it was down to 100, I would have grounds to suspect something was wrong, and ask more questions. However, if I was talking to a random person, and I got the sense that numbers were all they cared about, I might not answer directly. It depends on the person asking.
It’s kind of like the Dow Jones Industrial Average. It doesn’t really mean that much about the economy. It’s just 30 companies. But taken over time, it can be at least one barometer of health. If during one season a church was at 300, and four months later it was down to 100, I would have grounds to suspect something was wrong, and ask more questions. However, if I was talking to a random person, and I got the sense that numbers were all they cared about, I might not answer directly. It depends on the person asking.
Shaynus, I agree that the answer and response relates to the conversation and person you’re engaged with. Challies does qualify his article with the context of a conference. And that does seem to be a common question. I experienced it at the Gospel Coalition a number of times. And it was kind of like Brian Regan’s sketch on the “Me Monster.” No sooner was I spelling out an answer (we crafted a response that didn’t include numbers), than the person who asked was jumping in to talk about his church. Obviously not a scientific study, but in the church plant/church growth world, it is certainly the statistic du jour.
On the other side, if you’re in an American city/town/rural locale and you’re not experiencing some church growth, there may need to be some evaluation given to the skills, calling and giftedness of the church ‘s leadership. A healthy organism grows, produces fruit and reproduces itself. That doesn’t mean megachurch size with flashy techno and slick marketing collateral. But there will be people receiving the Lord by faith and the transformation in their lives will draw more to the church as God works. The work of the Holy Spirit is a powerful magnet for those seeking fulfillment in a world of broken promises & dreams.
Congrats on being self-supporting. Our church planted in 2004 and became self-supporting in 06. Church planting is a crazy ride, but there are more thrills than bruises.
mp
On the other side, if you’re in an American city/town/rural locale and you’re not experiencing some church growth, there may need to be some evaluation given to the skills, calling and giftedness of the church ‘s leadership. A healthy organism grows, produces fruit and reproduces itself. That doesn’t mean megachurch size with flashy techno and slick marketing collateral. But there will be people receiving the Lord by faith and the transformation in their lives will draw more to the church as God works. The work of the Holy Spirit is a powerful magnet for those seeking fulfillment in a world of broken promises & dreams.
Congrats on being self-supporting. Our church planted in 2004 and became self-supporting in 06. Church planting is a crazy ride, but there are more thrills than bruises.
mp
[dmicah]…if you’re in an American city/town/rural locale and you’re not experiencing some church growth, there may need to be some evaluation given to the skills, calling and giftedness of the church ‘s leadership. A healthy organism grows, produces fruit and reproduces itself. But there will be people receiving the Lord by faith and the transformation in their lives will draw more to the church as God works. The work of the Holy Spirit is a powerful magnet for those seeking fulfillment in a world of broken promises & dreams.
What is sad is that a church can sit and molder for years with dysfunctional leadership, people come and go, a few stick it out for whatever reason… it’s a blight, IMO, but there is nothing to be done. As long as the pastor can manage to keep enough people to pay his salary, a church can survive for, oh say, 16 years with an average attendance of about 30 people, and never grow in numbers OR in spiritual maturity.
Can a church ever decline in size and still be a spiritually healthy church with called, gifted and spiritually fit leadership?
Jonathan,
It can. Sin can creep in anywhere. Economic forces can have people move away suddenly. For example we have a lot of military families in our church that could be drawn away at any time.
But let’s take the PCUSA, the ELCA, The Episcopal Church ect, they’ve all lost members over the last decades. I think that would be one symptom of bad health. In the same way, Emergent churches grew sharply earlier in the last decade, but then faded away again. I wouldn’t look at the movement or an individual church and think hmmm, they have lots of people, therefore they’re healthy. It may just mean they’re consumerist. The point is to 1) look over the long haul and 2) recognize that it’s just one barometer of health.
It can. Sin can creep in anywhere. Economic forces can have people move away suddenly. For example we have a lot of military families in our church that could be drawn away at any time.
But let’s take the PCUSA, the ELCA, The Episcopal Church ect, they’ve all lost members over the last decades. I think that would be one symptom of bad health. In the same way, Emergent churches grew sharply earlier in the last decade, but then faded away again. I wouldn’t look at the movement or an individual church and think hmmm, they have lots of people, therefore they’re healthy. It may just mean they’re consumerist. The point is to 1) look over the long haul and 2) recognize that it’s just one barometer of health.
A few years ago, the Empire State GARBC had a 2 day conference on small church ministry. The exec. director of Rural Home Missionary Association spoke along with a pastor from a small church in the Adirondacks. His small community had almost no industry and was one in which young people grow up and move away. Church growth just kept up with attrition (people think a church of 55 that maintains that for 10-20 years isn’t growing, but actually it is; those churches often have a high % of seniors that are moving off the scene and are being replaced). The way the fellowship affrimed the man, it certainly seemed that he was called and gifted for the ministry. On the other hand, I have known of men in areas where the population is growing who have growing churches simply because they are in an area where the population is growing (who couldn’t have planted a growing church in Arizona in the past 2 decades??), yet they couldn’t hold a candle when it came to preaching to the brother I heard at the conference from the Adirondacks.
[Susan R]You’re right about these types of very small churches. This may sound a little critical, but those are not really churches, they are Christian social clubs. They may preach the Bible, but their primary purpose is to maintain a friendly and comfortable environment with their friends and family. The church becomes a gathering place for their personal network as much as a place to build believers and call sinners to repentance.[dmicah]…if you’re in an American city/town/rural locale and you’re not experiencing some church growth, there may need to be some evaluation given to the skills, calling and giftedness of the church ‘s leadership. A healthy organism grows, produces fruit and reproduces itself. But there will be people receiving the Lord by faith and the transformation in their lives will draw more to the church as God works. The work of the Holy Spirit is a powerful magnet for those seeking fulfillment in a world of broken promises & dreams.
What is sad is that a church can sit and molder for years with dysfunctional leadership, people come and go, a few stick it out for whatever reason… it’s a blight, IMO, but there is nothing to be done. As long as the pastor can manage to keep enough people to pay his salary, a church can survive for, oh say, 16 years with an average attendance of about 30 people, and never grow in numbers OR in spiritual maturity.
I understand Jonathan’s point about attrition and the growth necessary to maintain a numerical plateau. An extensive study might reveal some interesting trends there. However, people leaving for education or work elsewhere affects churches in cities and towns as well as rural locales. In 2011, our church lost about 45 people (including children) because their jobs moved them, they got a job elsewhere, and/or their education was completed. Many of them were volunteers. It stung a little to say the least, but it wasn’t discouraging. It’s life, and the church has to adapt to the increasing transience of our culture. Which is a constant reminder that the church’s job is not to grow, but to preach and make disciples. If it’s making disciples it will grow, but the sole purpose is not organizational heft.
I found this article a great blessing, as we could answer with great news all of the questions Tim suggested.
God is at work, despite the fact that we have lost many dear friends to sister churches in other states.
Mike
PS: I will add that I’m an extreme optimist.
[Jonathan Charles] Can a church ever decline in size and still be a spiritually healthy church with called, gifted and spiritually fit leadership?The answer is clearly a resounding yes. 6-1/2 years ago our church was bursting the seems, running about 110 on some Sundays, and frequently hitting 90. Then the economic disaster in Michigan began. Since then, 55 people have moved away because the head of household had to move for a job. Yet, victory continues. During this down-turn, the church has acquired adjoining land for future expansion (which is clearly a LOT further off than a few years back), and we have seen many new faces. We have recovered to the point that our average Sunday is about 8 below the peak point 6-1/2 years ago. New converts and new transfer growth have taken hold. Meanwhile, we’ve sent out 1 elder to pastor another church and seen many other victories. We have seen some mission trips, and some people surrender to ministry. A sense of excitement pervades the services.
God is at work, despite the fact that we have lost many dear friends to sister churches in other states.
Mike
PS: I will add that I’m an extreme optimist.
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