The Dirty Truth About Honoraria
A few thoughts about Dan’s comments about musicians.
I do a lot of concerts in churches on an individual basis and I have also done a lot of traveling with a group so I know the financials of this kind of thing pretty well. Here are some answers to Dan’s concerns from the other side of the coin.
Dan is right that some musicians have “riders” which are contracts that specify everything down to the temperature of water and the number of towels. I am not going to defend that kind of thing though strangely enough, I sort of understand the value in it. It helps put a musician in a position where they can do their best and helps the church bringing them in understand what they can do to help. The problem is it just makes a musician look like a diva and for that reason alone, I don’t do that kind of thing.
I also don’t ask for any specific amount of money or even for travel expenses. That being said, I have been extraordinarily blessed in that there are only a few times where I left with the feeling that a church sort of took advantage of that. Nine times out of ten, they take better care of me than I would have asked for. In regards to Dan’s statement about “peddling their product,” I would only say that musicians count on that to help make concerts financially feasible. The combination of the church’s renumeration and CD sales is how the musician earns a living. If either is off, things can get really tight.
The main reason I don’t worry about what a church is going to do financially is because I have other income outside of music. My family will probably not be affected if a church decides not to give me anything. But many Christian musicians do not have that luxury and there are other factors that have to be considered. In answer to Dan’s concerns, here is their perspective.
1) Sole income. Unlike me, many Christian musicians try to make a living in music. Their income comes primarily from concerts and product sales. So what they get from a church for a Sunday concert is extremely important. Assuming they average two concerts/week, that is 100 concerts a year (pretty typical for many full-time Christian musicians). So, from that perspective, getting an average $100 honorarium generates $10,000/year in income which will hardly feed a family.
I suppose Christian musicians could all look at music as part time income and work a regular job during the week. However, ideally, if we want high quality Christian music, there must be some musicians who dedicate their lives to it. It makes no sense to complain about the quality of Christian music if we are not willing to pay some musicians enough money so they can earn a living producing music.
2) Expenses. There are Christian musicians/groups that do ask for substantial amounts of money to do a concert. There is a level at which it becomes excessive. But the fact is that level is higher than many think. For example, let’s say that a quartet asks for $2500 to be at a church for an entire Sunday. Here are some of the typical expenses involved in that.
Travel:
Fuel: $300 (based on 250 mile one way trip in a van pulling a trailer)
Food: $200
Vehicle maintenance and insurance: $100
Musician pay:
$1500 (Assuming each member of the group gets $300 for two days of work)
Other expenses:
Equipment (A typical group might have $10-$20K in sound equipment that often needs to be fixed/replaced).
Promotion (Booking costs, posters, business cards, phone bills, web site design/hosting, etc)
When you add it up, it becomes clear that no one is getting wealthy in this scenario. I have left out CD sales which is the factor that may or may not make it financially feasible for at least one member of the group to make that his/her primary income. For the rest of the musicians, they often work all week, leave their families on Saturday, drive to a church for the Sunday and then drive through the night Sunday night, arriving in time to go back to work on Monday.
So again, there are clearly musicians who make a fantastic living doing church music but they are fewer than you might think. Don’t assume that just because they ask for money up front that they are money grubbers. Remember, they have pay the bills regardless of what a church gives them and they just want to know that they are not going to have to go into debt in order to do so.
I do a lot of concerts in churches on an individual basis and I have also done a lot of traveling with a group so I know the financials of this kind of thing pretty well. Here are some answers to Dan’s concerns from the other side of the coin.
Dan is right that some musicians have “riders” which are contracts that specify everything down to the temperature of water and the number of towels. I am not going to defend that kind of thing though strangely enough, I sort of understand the value in it. It helps put a musician in a position where they can do their best and helps the church bringing them in understand what they can do to help. The problem is it just makes a musician look like a diva and for that reason alone, I don’t do that kind of thing.
I also don’t ask for any specific amount of money or even for travel expenses. That being said, I have been extraordinarily blessed in that there are only a few times where I left with the feeling that a church sort of took advantage of that. Nine times out of ten, they take better care of me than I would have asked for. In regards to Dan’s statement about “peddling their product,” I would only say that musicians count on that to help make concerts financially feasible. The combination of the church’s renumeration and CD sales is how the musician earns a living. If either is off, things can get really tight.
The main reason I don’t worry about what a church is going to do financially is because I have other income outside of music. My family will probably not be affected if a church decides not to give me anything. But many Christian musicians do not have that luxury and there are other factors that have to be considered. In answer to Dan’s concerns, here is their perspective.
1) Sole income. Unlike me, many Christian musicians try to make a living in music. Their income comes primarily from concerts and product sales. So what they get from a church for a Sunday concert is extremely important. Assuming they average two concerts/week, that is 100 concerts a year (pretty typical for many full-time Christian musicians). So, from that perspective, getting an average $100 honorarium generates $10,000/year in income which will hardly feed a family.
I suppose Christian musicians could all look at music as part time income and work a regular job during the week. However, ideally, if we want high quality Christian music, there must be some musicians who dedicate their lives to it. It makes no sense to complain about the quality of Christian music if we are not willing to pay some musicians enough money so they can earn a living producing music.
2) Expenses. There are Christian musicians/groups that do ask for substantial amounts of money to do a concert. There is a level at which it becomes excessive. But the fact is that level is higher than many think. For example, let’s say that a quartet asks for $2500 to be at a church for an entire Sunday. Here are some of the typical expenses involved in that.
Travel:
Fuel: $300 (based on 250 mile one way trip in a van pulling a trailer)
Food: $200
Vehicle maintenance and insurance: $100
Musician pay:
$1500 (Assuming each member of the group gets $300 for two days of work)
Other expenses:
Equipment (A typical group might have $10-$20K in sound equipment that often needs to be fixed/replaced).
Promotion (Booking costs, posters, business cards, phone bills, web site design/hosting, etc)
When you add it up, it becomes clear that no one is getting wealthy in this scenario. I have left out CD sales which is the factor that may or may not make it financially feasible for at least one member of the group to make that his/her primary income. For the rest of the musicians, they often work all week, leave their families on Saturday, drive to a church for the Sunday and then drive through the night Sunday night, arriving in time to go back to work on Monday.
So again, there are clearly musicians who make a fantastic living doing church music but they are fewer than you might think. Don’t assume that just because they ask for money up front that they are money grubbers. Remember, they have pay the bills regardless of what a church gives them and they just want to know that they are not going to have to go into debt in order to do so.
Hi
I am new.
As a missionary it is my experience that there are double standards.
There are those like the missionary, the speaker as per the above example etc who MUST ABSOLUTELY live by faith. Not knowing what will be in the envelope at the end of the month or if there even will be an envelope.
Then there are the pastors who “earn” a fixed/pre-negiotated/set salary.
If the first group complains it exhibits a clear lack of faith and a love of money.
How many of you know what will be available at the end of the month? I do not.
I am reminded of a testimony of one of my friends a local pastor who said: That day we(parents + two kids) had no money for food, but praise GOd the bananas in our yard “just happened” to be ripe on that day!
Thanks
J
I am new.
As a missionary it is my experience that there are double standards.
There are those like the missionary, the speaker as per the above example etc who MUST ABSOLUTELY live by faith. Not knowing what will be in the envelope at the end of the month or if there even will be an envelope.
Then there are the pastors who “earn” a fixed/pre-negiotated/set salary.
If the first group complains it exhibits a clear lack of faith and a love of money.
How many of you know what will be available at the end of the month? I do not.
I am reminded of a testimony of one of my friends a local pastor who said: That day we(parents + two kids) had no money for food, but praise GOd the bananas in our yard “just happened” to be ripe on that day!
Thanks
J
Jandre,
Most missionaries I know do live on an income that is established by their mission boards and many times the missionary does not go to the field until that support is there.
Most missionaries I know do live on an income that is established by their mission boards and many times the missionary does not go to the field until that support is there.
Perhaps the correct solution to the problem is to pay the speaker based on his handling of God’s Word and not just that he went to a church and spoke in front of your people. I’ve heard too many evangelists get up and talk about everything but Scripture, and what little Scripture they used was taken out of context or misinterpreted.
How about we pay people based on the quality of their preaching instead of based on their degrees or situation in life?
Just a thought.
How about we pay people based on the quality of their preaching instead of based on their degrees or situation in life?
Just a thought.
[T Howard] Perhaps the correct solution to the problem is to pay the speaker based on his handling of God’s Word and not just that he went to a church and spoke in front of your people. I’ve heard too many evangelists get up and talk about everything but Scripture, and what little Scripture they used was taken out of context or misinterpreted.
How about we pay people based on the quality of their preaching instead of based on their degrees or situation in life?
Just a thought.
I like it.
[Jandre] I am new.Recently empersoned or just new to SI?
:p 8-)
[GregH] Musician pay:Wow, that caught my attention. That’s more than I make right now as a public school teacher, and a lot more than I ever made as a pastor or Christian school administrator.
$1500 (Assuming each member of the group gets $300 for two days of work)
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
I have thrice had the sad experience of being invited to give four or five talks only to be given no remuneration. Twice I put aside important work and ended up considerably out of pocket….BUT…the Lord knows. Like A. C. Gaebelein and many others used to do, I leave it to Him. It’s hard to face my dear wife sometimes (she understands, but it’s probably harder on her), but you can’t do it for any other reason than you want to be faithful.
Btw, many of the bigger names get ridiculously high fees (thousands of dollars) for speaking. And they won’t come unless everything is top notch and the money is guaranteed!
Btw, many of the bigger names get ridiculously high fees (thousands of dollars) for speaking. And they won’t come unless everything is top notch and the money is guaranteed!
Dr. Paul Henebury
I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.
[Paul Henebury] Btw, many of the bigger names get ridiculously high fees (thousands of dollars) for speaking. And they won’t come unless everything is top notch and the money is guaranteed!Not sure about the thousands of dollars, but I think there is some wisdom in the “top notch” aspect of things — all things in balance, of course.
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Chip Van Emmerik][GregH] Musician pay:Wow, that caught my attention. That’s more than I make right now as a public school teacher, and a lot more than I ever made as a pastor or Christian school administrator.
$1500 (Assuming each member of the group gets $300 for two days of work)
Warming up the ol’ pipes as we speak……… :bigsmile:
Lee
Before I became a pastor I did quite a bit of pulpit supply. For me it was a great opportunity to get more preaching experience. I preached in small churches in MN, SD, IA, & WI and I can think of only one that did not give an honorarium. That church came during a time when I was already doing volunteer ministry locally and working part time as a self employed contractor to pay the bills. Money happened to be really tight at that particular week and we drove about 2hrs to get there. I had to trust God as I swiped the credit card to pay for the gas to drive back. Around the same time we went to another church and before the evening service one of the members gave me an envelope (if I remember right it had $100 in it). I knew it was from him personally, but thought that he was giving what the church had not, but then about a week or two later I got a letter from the pastor with the “official” honorarium in it. I have often thought that the Lord allowed that one church to neglect communicating to our needs so that we could learn to trust Him more.
I recall another situation when I was in Bible college. It was announced at chapel that a church about 4 hrs away wanted someone for pulpit supply, so I volunteered. It was a tiny little church in the middle of nowhere in western WI. The pastor was bi-vocational, but if I remember right, they gave a gift of about $450 because they wanted to help a college student who was ministering. WOW!
Sure there was a church that did not give us anything (though it was one of the larger churches) but other churches gave such large gifts that it was amazing. The point is that if you averaged it all out, these churches treated this minister very well. For us it has evened out, but I fear that those who are hurt the most are the churches who have not been taught to be charitable with those who tread the corn. May ministers not be greedy of filthy lucre and my churches communicate to those who teach in all good things.
I recall another situation when I was in Bible college. It was announced at chapel that a church about 4 hrs away wanted someone for pulpit supply, so I volunteered. It was a tiny little church in the middle of nowhere in western WI. The pastor was bi-vocational, but if I remember right, they gave a gift of about $450 because they wanted to help a college student who was ministering. WOW!
Sure there was a church that did not give us anything (though it was one of the larger churches) but other churches gave such large gifts that it was amazing. The point is that if you averaged it all out, these churches treated this minister very well. For us it has evened out, but I fear that those who are hurt the most are the churches who have not been taught to be charitable with those who tread the corn. May ministers not be greedy of filthy lucre and my churches communicate to those who teach in all good things.
[T Howard] Perhaps the correct solution to the problem is to pay the speaker based on his handling of God’s Word and not just that he went to a church and spoke in front of your people. I’ve heard too many evangelists get up and talk about everything but Scripture, and what little Scripture they used was taken out of context or misinterpreted.But who is going to arbitrate on the quality? The deacons? The membership? Will there not be a danger that the preacher may be pressured into preaching a feel good sermon, a sermon inoffensive to anyone’s sensibilities, a sermon that gives undue praise to the church? And what if the preacher has a hard word to preach to the church which he feels the Lord wants him to preach. Would he feel pressure to water down his message? And could you look a preacher in the face and say that the quality of his preaching was considered to be so poor that they were not going to give him anything?
How about we pay people based on the quality of their preaching instead of based on their degrees or situation in life?
Just a thought.
Richard Pajak
[Richard Pajak][T Howard] Perhaps the correct solution to the problem is to pay the speaker based on his handling of God’s Word and not just that he went to a church and spoke in front of your people. I’ve heard too many evangelists get up and talk about everything but Scripture, and what little Scripture they used was taken out of context or misinterpreted.But who is going to arbitrate on the quality? The deacons? The membership? Will there not be a danger that the preacher may be pressured into preaching a feel good sermon, a sermon inoffensive to anyone’s sensibilities, a sermon that gives undue praise to the church? And what if the preacher has a hard word to preach to the church which he feels the Lord wants him to preach. Would he feel pressure to water down his message? And could you look a preacher in the face and say that the quality of his preaching was considered to be so poor that they were not going to give him anything?
How about we pay people based on the quality of their preaching instead of based on their degrees or situation in life?
Just a thought.
Emphasis Added
If that is the case, he has absolutely no business ever climbing into the pulpit in the first place.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
And could you look a preacher in the face and say that the quality of his preaching was considered to be so poor that they were not going to give him anything?Yes. There have been several men speak in the churches I’ve attended over the years that really had no business being there. I’m not talking about guys learning to preach; but men who have been in ministry for many years and should know better. If it were up to me, I wouldn’t have given these men a dime for their preaching. Not because they didn’t meet the felt needs of the congregation, but because they weren’t faithful to the Word. They read a few verses of Scripture, and spent the rest of the time talking about themselves, their families, their ministries, or some topic unrelated to the passage.
I’ve also spoken to the pastor at times about why he invites these men to preach. A lot of it centers on politics.
[T Howard] There have been several men speak in the churches I’ve attended over the years that really had no business being there. I’m not talking about guys learning to preach; but men who have been in ministry for many years and should know better. If it were up to me, I wouldn’t have given these men a dime for their preaching. Not because they didn’t meet the felt needs of the congregation, but because they weren’t faithful to the Word. They read a few verses of Scripture, and spent the rest of the time talking about themselves, their families, their ministries, or some topic unrelated to the passage.I want my money back for —
- The guy who denied the Trinity
- The guy who mocked the Hypostatic Union
- The guy who found different members of the Godhead speaking through the Old Testament
- The guy who recommended running laps around the sanctuary
- The guy who warned us not to use commentaries
- Every sermon I have ever heard involving allegorization
- And almost every sermon I have heard from an “evangelist”
Thankfully, many of the examples I could give have been purged from my memory. :Sp :Sp :Sp
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
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