Should we "feel God" at church?

Oh boy……two cliffs here. One cliff is “the Vulcan Worship Hour” (No clapping, smiling or external expressions of enthusiasm of anykind aloud!….ever!). The other cliff is “the Jump N Jam Party for Jesus Hour.”

Jesus explained that he would send “another of the same kind” - that is a comforter. Not sure how you can have the comforting work of the Holy Spirit and never “feel” His presence…..unless His presence is not there! Of course I have some friends who I think do “feel” his presence but to admit that would place them into a situation that their theological grid would not allow - so they lie to themselves (OK….that was probably unfair - I’m not really sure how to explain this, They would have to admitt that they occasionally “feel” in worship and then they would have to assign that this is “relative” or “normative” or “whatever!”). This keeps them from sliding into the abyss of the Keswick! Of course the implications of this sort of thing (the “feeling” part of the Holy Spirit of God) can be difficult for we who are fearful of the whole pentecostal thing. So….I’m sure there are some Sunday’s we may not “feel” God’s presence. That most likely has more to do with us than Him…..but for those who say they never “feel” God’s presence……Well, if they really never do “feel” God’s presence……we need to share the gospel with them.

Of course “feelings” are not authoritative here - God’s Word is. So I certainly wish not to throw the baby out of the bath water, out of the church foyer and into the on-coming traffic of the ecclesiastically odd!

This actually is a great topic. Frankly if Fundamentalism does end up dying - in large part it is exactly because it has run away from the doctrine and implications of an active ministry of the Holy Spirit of God. My dear mentor Dr. Singleton used to say -

”When you emphasize the Spirit of God without the Word of God you ‘blow up!’ - When you emphasize the Word of God without the Spirit of God you ‘dry up!’ When you emphasize the Word of God and the Spirit of God together…. you grow up!”

I’m actually not sure which is worse - the Keswick/mystical approach to sanctification and worship or the dead neo-anthropologic centered approach where we grow ourselves without the supernatural touch of the third person of the Trinity. I would love to say more but won’t….untill I feel a bit more on this. :)

Straight Ahead!

jt

[Joel Tetreau] Oh boy……two cliffs here. One cliff is “the Vulcan Worship Hour” (No clapping, smiling or external expressions of enthusiasm of anykind aloud!….ever!). The other cliff is “the Jump N Jam Party for Jesus Hour.”

Jesus explained that he would send “another of the same kind” - that is a comforter. Not sure how you can have the comforting work of the Holy Spirit and never “feel” His presence…..unless His presence is not there!

You exemplify why the confusion exists. Your approach assumes an either or but what we should be asking is whether the Bible teaches. Your approach assumes that the Bible will fall on one or the other or in between without ever making a case for your presuppostion.

Frankly my experience is that most people make up their minds long before they explore the topic in any exhaustive manner, both Biblically and anthropologically so that any finds they may have are interpreted to fit their presuppositions.

And my experience is that not many have the constitution necessary to endure a rigorous vetting of their views on the matter.

But as to spirituality, it is just that, spiritual, not human. Human elements or properties do not function as gauges for spirituality, that cannot. They may, anecdotally, be effected by spiritual matters, but they cannot be and are not reliable gauges. They are subjective. Only that which is objective can be a gauge which is the Word of God. The approach must be, “What does the Word of God say about who is filled with God’s Spirit and who is not and how this can be certain?” and I am supremely confident that it is by means of following, and yielding to or trusting whatever protocol the Word of God provides for this which requires a doctrinal examination of the topic and not using any “emotions” or “feelings” from which to ascertain spiritual realities.

Alex,

Um….this is hardly an ETS session where we’ll present our theological papers on our views of the Holy Spirit - This is a blog! I’m really not under the obligation to defend each statement with a Scripture or Biblical theology - I have done that elsewhere and could do that again - but I didn’t have the time this afternoon it would take to do that here today. My views are the result of serious study in the Scriptures Alex.

Straight Ahead…..carefully

jt

something related to this, so I’ll recycle it here, rather than rewrite it.

Much of the work of the Holy Spirit is “below the radar screen”. He draws our attention to Christ, not to Himself. Here’s what I wrote, discussing Romans 8:15-16:

For this particular discussion, I want to note the internal spiritual communication between the believer and the Holy Spirit of God. This is not talking about a physical communication heard with the ears, but a spiritual communication in which the testimony of the Holy Spirit confirms the testimony of the Scriptures. God’s Word is validated in the mind and heart of the believer by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit, so that we spiritually know it is true.

This work of the Spirit, as with many works of the Spirit, is somewhat “below the radar screen.” It isn’t audible or visible. In fact, I don’t see any evidence that we are even really conscious of it as the Spirit’s work – it is Spirit to spirit communication. How do you as a believer in Christ really know that God’s Word is true when it tells of your salvation? You just do. John 3 describes the work of the Spirit in our salvation as somewhat unknown. We don’t know how it works, or where it came from, it just happens. If we weren’t talking about spiritual things, we would say it is “instinctive”, but it isn’t instinct, it is spirit — the work of the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit.

The Broader Testifying Ministry of the Spirit

Have you ever heard someone preaching or teaching the Bible, or read something about the Bible, and you just absolutely know that what they are saying is true to God’s Word? It may be something you’ve never heard before. You may know you need to study to confirm what they’ve said — but you already know. It rings absolutely true, it fits with everything you know of God and His Word, and you’ll study to check it out, but you know. And when you do that necessary study you find that, yes indeed, what was said was true.

That is a work of the Holy Spirit. Again, it is “under the radar.” You may not even think about the Holy Spirit at the time because He doesn’t draw attention to Himself, but to Christ (note John 15:26 and 16:13-14). But part of His work in the life of a believer is to testify to Biblical truth when it is heard, so that we recognise it as the very truth of God.

I cited Isaiah 59:21; John 7:16-17; 10:27; 14:26; 16:13; 17:8; I Cor. 2:12-13; I John 2:20-21, 27.

If you have heard and received the truth of God’s Word, you “felt” the Spirit whether you knew you were encountering Him or not. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit. It doesn’t say He bears witness with our ears, or our minds, or our emotions, but with our spirit. That spiritual communication may flow into our minds and our emotions, of course. But even when it happens, we may not recognize that as the working of the Spirit and a “meeting with God.”

Suppose you walk out of a meeting of God’s people having heard and/or sung spiritual truth that left you feeling more at peace about a problem in your life. You may not be thinking about that being an encounter with God — all you may be thinking is that you got help with dealing with the problem. You know God helped you, but lots of people wouldn’t call it an “encounter with God” or say that they “felt His presence.” I would say that is feeling the Holy Spirit’s presence, that we feel it a lot more than we recognise, and He is quite happy with that. While He does tell us He works in that way, His purpose is not to draw attention to Himself, but to the Saviour.

[Joel Tetreau] Alex,

Um….this is hardly an ETS session where we’ll present our theological papers on our views of the Holy Spirit - This is a blog! I’m really not under the obligation to defend each statement with a Scripture or Biblical theology - I have done that elsewhere and could do that again - but I didn’t have the time this afternoon it would take to do that here today. My views are the result of serious study in the Scriptures Alex.

Straight Ahead…..carefully

jt

Well you made some emphatic assertions and so did I and I still believe your approach as asserted does exemplify much of the problem, the either/or/in between one which you modeled so I believe we are on the same ground. My understanding is that the thread is for discussing the issue in more detail and weighing the merits of people’s views and over the exchange we can discover the value of the position of one another.

So I am happy to continue with the process of discovery. As to any demands about an ETS level response, if this was your impression it was expected I certainly did not use any words meaning to communicate it so maybe you enlarged my response a bit in your mind leading you to believe I was demanding this or a more thorough defense. I went from your response to a general view of the matter and assumed it could be observed by the reader but I may be guilty of a clumsy transition so if this is the case I will try to note with something like “Generally speaking and not directly to your comment” when I make that lane change in the future so you or anyone else does not get the wrong impression.

BTW, my views are also a result of serious study in the Scriptures as well as peripheral issues which impact the subject. Here is to staying on topic. :)

[JG]
Suppose you walk out of a meeting of God’s people having heard and/or sung spiritual truth that left you feeling more at peace about a problem in your life.

Wouldn’t the encounter have been the Word/Truth and the resulting peace a by-product and not the thing itself? Secondly, unsaved people encounter truths that resolve problems in their lives and have “feel more at peace” at the time as well. Based on the “more at peace” formula they have every right to say they are experiencing the presence of God within themselves, too. The matter of “feeling at peace” seems to fail prescription as a gauge. This is not to say this by-product won’t or cannot occur, obviously it does at various times, but it it seem immediately problematic to use it as a gauge to measure an encounter, only as a anecdote that may or may not occur.

I think the defining characteristic of any encounter with God via the Holy Spirit is the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. The seed that is received into good ground will bear fruit.

..unsaved people encounter truths that resolve problems in their lives and have “feel more at peace” at the time as well. Based on the “more at peace” formula they have every right to say they are experiencing the presence of God within themselves, too.

Not sure what you are saying here, Bro. Alex. To use my above comment as an example- If an unsaved person exhibits love, joy, patience, etc… they are bearing the fruits of the Spirit? I think we must remember that the unregenerate still have a God-given conscience that they can follow. They can obey ‘the law’ and do ‘good works’, but their good works have no eternal value. The movements of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the regenerate DO have eternal implications.

I agree that emotions aren’t a reliable gauge, but our emotions/feelings are programmed by God and I don’t think it is wrong to observe our emotions as long as they are consistent with what we know to be true Scripturally. For instance, Proverbs 16:20 He that handleth a matter wisely shall find good: and whoso trusteth in the LORD, happy is he. The ‘happy’ is contingent on the trusting, so that’s a good and Godly kind of happy, as opposed to a fleshly happy.

[Alex Guggenheim]

[JG]
Suppose you walk out of a meeting of God’s people having heard and/or sung spiritual truth that left you feeling more at peace about a problem in your life.

Wouldn’t the encounter have been the Word/Truth and the resulting peace a by-product and not the thing itself?

Note what I said in the paragraph immediately prior to the one you quoted:

[JG] If you have heard and received the truth of God’s Word, you “felt” the Spirit whether you knew you were encountering Him or not. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit. It doesn’t say He bears witness with our ears, or our minds, or our emotions, but with our spirit. That spiritual communication may flow into our minds and our emotions, of course. But even when it happens, we may not recognize that as the working of the Spirit and a “meeting with God.”

Any true peace is indeed a by-product of God’s truth. I thought I was making that clear in the context, but apparently not, for which I apologize.

The only caveat I would add to your statement is that Biblically, I don’t think there really is an encounter with the Word/Truth alone. If there’s been an encounter with the Word/Truth that penetrates the heart and mind and does a work there, it’s also been an encounter with the Holy Spirit, whether we know it or not. It’s by the Spirit, and the Spirit alone, that we are able to receive truth, if I Corinthians 2 means anything at all.

Thanks jg and I see the value of what I overlooked in how you stated your response.

Can someone please lay a Biblical groundwork as to why we should make decisions based upon what makes people “feel” close to God in a church meeting?

To me, at this point, the issue seems subjective and a matter of popular opinion.

The whole Barna survey thing troubles me (not that collecting research is bad) because Barna assumes certain criteria without proving it Biblically. For example, all of sudden part of a measure of a good church is emphasis on helping the poor. Barna never mentioned that in the 80’s. So where did this come from? Did he miss this in the 80’s and has since discovered it? If so, then is he really competent to set the criteria for what makes for a good church in the first place? Or do the fads set the criteria (helping the poor was not a fad in the 80’s but is now).

So, is the next criteria going to be “does your church take prayer requests right in the service and have a prayer meeting on the spot?” There are many, many Biblical mandates for the church, but how do we determine which are most essential? It used to be that supporting foreign missions was important, but that is no longer on the what’s hot list. Crazy, man, crazy!

Barna needs to do research, but he needs to stop setting the agenda.

Well said, Ed. Maybe it was my imagination, but the survey seemed to assume that feeling God’s presence was something close to the center of what’s supposed to be happening at church.
Now, maybe it something central to proper church life, but the idea is not assumable… it would need to be claimed and supported. But that’s not what the research dynamic usually is. You don’t really see Barna very often (ever?) making a case for why certain things are worth measuring.
Sometimes you see some of that, but mostly it’s just “we measured this and here’s what we found.”
But the subtext is, “We thought this was really important to measure.”

So I don’t want to read too much into it.

What we find in Scripture is that people feel plenty when they worship. What we’re not told is that feeling these things is the point of worship. And when you go from feeling joy, etc., to “feeling God’s presence,” it’s even less supported in Scripture.
It’s commonly assumed that the Spirit is the generator of worshipful feelings or feelings of presence, but the Bible doesn’t ever say people felt the presence of the Spirit. I think it may come close to saying the Spirit made someone feel excited, joyful, etc., but if it does, it would be pretty rare.
Scripture does not seem to put “making people feel stuff” on the Holy Spirit’s priority list.

Aaron said:

Scripture does not seem to put “making people feel stuff” on the Holy Spirit’s priority list.

Good thoughts all, Aaron.