John Piper: Salvation Not 'A Decision'

[Pastor Joe Roof] There are a lot of untransformed people out there who never evidence being a new creation in Christ. …So, it seems to be that there is more to it than quick-prayerism decision making that is so often touted today.

While what you say may contain some truths it does not approach the issue at hand which is that when we believe we do make a decision. It is true that the parts of the process of our believing on Christ is not summarily only a decision but there is no salvation without a decision.

Piper exacerbates an already unnecessarily confused issue with taking on the element of decision making out of its contexts and creates a false division and/or contention and then adds ingredients one cannot even find in the Scripture with regard to believing the gospel unto salvation. A decision is made and without it there is no salvation and John Piper’s inconsiderate words need to be disclaimed.

BTW what testimonies are you talking about and I was saved “after the revivalist period” and I certainly made a decision. So now based on this post-revivalist view we are to question the salvation of everyone who testifies they made a decision and are conscious of it. I will also tell you that before the revivalist period there are many testimonies of those who were practicing a very Jesus-satisfied life but never made a decision to believe on Christ as Savior.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that Mr. Piper demonstrates strong asceticism in his teaches which makes it no surprise to me he attempts to include this the gospel formula. He isn’t the first and he won’t be the last and though he is sincere, he is sincerely in error.

[Greg Long] I appreciate John Piper’s ministry in so many ways, and I don’t have it out for him nearly as much as Alex does

I believe you need to watch how you describe my view of John Piper’s teachings, here you are implying you know my motive and you do not and cannot and that is a sinful thing to do. More importantly, it is not about John Piper, though personal considerations may anecdotally become involved, it is about his doctrine.

Surely there can be no question that salvation involves and includes a decision on the part of the sinner. Perhaps other questions would encourage helpful discussion of this issue:

1) Why does the sinner make a “decision” to trust in Christ and follow Him?
2) When does the sinner make such a decision, before or after he has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Let’s not make more into this than what it is.

If I decide to go to the store for my wife, I may or may not actually go to the store. Maybe I decide to and then not actually. The same is true with salvation. Simply deciding to believe in Jesus isn’t the same thing as actually believing in Jesus.

Piper appears to be addressing this usage. A person should not think he is saved because he decided to believe. This doesn’t nullify that an actually decision needs to be made for salvation. I agree that some people overstate things, but let’s try to focus on what he actually said.

that Piper’s linguistic paradigm of “being satisfied” in Jesus will eventually encounter the same problems that the previous paradigm has. Where people once doubted whether or not they have made “the decision” properly to be saved, they will now doubt whether or not they have “been satisfied” enough to be saved. And where they once may have taken comfort in their decision instead of Christ, they will now take comfort in their emotions instead of Christ.

In my mind, the solution is to turn people back to Christ from the human tendency to stray from him—it’s not going to come from simply changing the terminology by which we describe the relationship.

I was curious about Piper’s translation of Jn 6:35, so I went and retranslated it myself. This is what I came up with, and I’d appreciate any feedback you all might have on it.

John 6:35
[And] Jesus said to them, ‘I myself (double pronoun - Egw eimi) am the bread that gives life. Those who are coming to me will not ever (ou mn - double negative) be hungry [again] , and those who believe in me shall not ever (the double negative ‘ou mn’ is here as well) be thirsty at any time.

It’s a little wooden, but I was trying hard to capture the meaning and avoid the typical English translations. Bracketed words are words I supplied to add clarity or to add a more complete meaning that the Greek conveys but English would not.

This passage reminded me a lot of Matthew 5:6 as I was translating it, and there is an OT verse as well, but I don’t know the reference off the top of my head.

I think Piper’s point - and I agree with Greg Long (and others) that Piper can be confusing in how he presents material - is that once we see ourselves as the sinful creatures that we are, we become aware that the only hope we have is in what Jesus did, and therefore realize that we must keep going back to ‘the bread that gives life’ for cleansing and forgiveness, just as OT Israel had to keep going back to the Temple with new sacrifices to atone for their sin.

As for the whole ‘delighting in God as salvation’ thing, Piper does a pretty good job in explaining that in his book ‘Desiring God’, which is available for free as a PDF from Desiringgod.org.

I went and looked at Piper’s introduction to see if there’s a succinct definition of what he meant available. This is a little more than succinct, but I think it’s pretty clear what he’s getting at.

[Desiring God, p. 11-12]
The older I get, the more I am persuaded that Nehemiah 8:10 is crucial for living and dying well: “The joy of the LORD is your strength.” As we grow older and our bodies weaken, we must learn from the Puritan pastor Richard Baxter (who died in 1691) to redouble our efforts to find strength from spiritual joy, not natural supplies. He prayed, “May the Living God, who is the portion and rest of the saints, make these our carnal minds so spiritual, and our earthly hearts so heavenly, that loving him, and delighting in him, may be the work of our lives.” When delighting in God is the work of our lives (which I call Christian Hedonism), there will be an inner strength for ministries of love to the very end.

J. I. Packer described this dynamic in Baxter’s life: “The hope of heaven brought him joy, and joy brought him strength, and so, like John Calvin before him and George Whitefield after him (two verifiable examples) and, it would seem, like the apostle Paul himself…he was astoundingly enabled to labor on, accomplishing more than would ever have seemed possible in a single lifetime.” But not only does the pursuit of joy in God give strength to endure; it is the key to breaking the power of sin on our way to heaven. Matthew Henry, another Puritan pastor, put it like this: “The joy of the Lord will arm us against the assaults of our spiritual enemies and put our mouths out of taste for those pleasures with which the tempter baits his hooks.”

This is the great business of life—to “put our mouths out of taste for those pleasures with which the tempter baits his hooks.” I know of no other way to triumph over sin long-term than to gain a distaste for it because of a superior satisfaction in God. One of the reasons this book is still “working” after seventeen years is that this truth simply does not and will not change. God remains gloriously all-satisfying. The human heart remains a ceaseless factory of desires. Sin remains powerfully and suicidally appealing. The battle remains: Where will we drink? Where will we feast? Therefore, Desiring God is still a compelling and urgent message: Feast on God.

I never tire of saying and savoring the truth that God’s passion to be glorified and our passion to be satisfied are one experience in the Christ-exalting act of worship—singing in the sanctuary and suffering in the streets. Baxter said it like this:

[God’s] glorifying himself and the saving of his people are not two decrees with God, but one decree, to glorify his mercy in their salvation, though we may say that one is the end of the other: so I think they should be with us together indeed.

We get the mercy; He gets the glory. We get the happiness in Him; He gets the honor from us.

Link to the book: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/online-books/desiring-god

[Jay C.] I went and looked at Piper’s introduction to see if there’s a succinct definition of what he meant available. This is a little more than succinct, but I think it’s pretty clear what he’s getting at.

[Desiring God, p. 11-12]
The older I get, the more I am persuaded that Nehemiah 8:10 is crucial for living and dying well: “The joy of the LORD is your strength.” As we grow older and our bodies weaken, we must learn from the Puritan pastor Richard Baxter (who died in 1691) to redouble our efforts to find strength from spiritual joy, not natural supplies. He prayed, “May the Living God, who is the portion and rest of the saints, make these our carnal minds so spiritual, and our earthly hearts so heavenly, that loving him, and delighting in him, may be the work of our lives.” When delighting in God is the work of our lives (which I call Christian Hedonism), there will be an inner strength for ministries of love to the very end.

J. I. Packer described this dynamic in Baxter’s life: “The hope of heaven brought him joy, and joy brought him strength, and so, like John Calvin before him and George Whitefield after him (two verifiable examples) and, it would seem, like the apostle Paul himself…he was astoundingly enabled to labor on, accomplishing more than would ever have seemed possible in a single lifetime.” But not only does the pursuit of joy in God give strength to endure; it is the key to breaking the power of sin on our way to heaven. Matthew Henry, another Puritan pastor, put it like this: “The joy of the Lord will arm us against the assaults of our spiritual enemies and put our mouths out of taste for those pleasures with which the tempter baits his hooks.”

This is the great business of life—to “put our mouths out of taste for those pleasures with which the tempter baits his hooks.” I know of no other way to triumph over sin long-term than to gain a distaste for it because of a superior satisfaction in God. One of the reasons this book is still “working” after seventeen years is that this truth simply does not and will not change. God remains gloriously all-satisfying. The human heart remains a ceaseless factory of desires. Sin remains powerfully and suicidally appealing. The battle remains: Where will we drink? Where will we feast? Therefore, Desiring God is still a compelling and urgent message: Feast on God.

I never tire of saying and savoring the truth that God’s passion to be glorified and our passion to be satisfied are one experience in the Christ-exalting act of worship—singing in the sanctuary and suffering in the streets. Baxter said it like this:

[God’s] glorifying himself and the saving of his people are not two decrees with God, but one decree, to glorify his mercy in their salvation, though we may say that one is the end of the other: so I think they should be with us together indeed.

We get the mercy; He gets the glory. We get the happiness in Him; He gets the honor from us.

Link to the book: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/online-books/desiring-god

He says many things but the plain Gospel.

Alex, was the context of the above limited to the plain Gospel? Was Piper trying to explain how a person is saved?

If it is not then it is not germane to the issue and your objection is with Jay’s use since the gospel and deciding to believe is the context of the thread discussion and objections.

[Jay C.] I went and looked at Piper’s introduction to see if there’s a succinct definition of what he meant available. This is a little more than succinct…

Understatement much?

It seems that Piper is saying, “Salvation is not obtained by merely making a decision,” something akin to “Try Jesus.” He goes on to say that some of his hearers have not “waved the white flag of surrender to Jesus.”

Isn’t this another way of saying that saving faith is more than raising a hand, walking an aisle, praying a prayer? He is saying that saving faith includes surrender to the authority of Christ. Since the essence of our alienation from God is our sinful rebellion (defying God’s authority, deciding for ourselves what is right and wrong, “for me”), salvation is a change of attitude toward God’s rightful rule. Saving faith includes repentance, which is a change of mind regarding sin. No longer defending and justifying it, we now acknowledge it, and agree with God’s perspective concerning it. As sinners, we formerly defied Christ’s authority. “We will not have this man to rule over us!” As believers, we now acknowledge His rightful rule, and become lifelong repenters who evaluate every action in the light of His revealed will.

Unquestionably, many who have “made a decision for Christ” know nothing of this kind of repentant faith. Biblical assurance of salvation is not based upon what I did, ie “made a decision.” It is based upon what God has done and is doing. When we see clear evidence that God has changed our hearts, made us a new creation, and is continuing to mold us into the likeness of His dear Son, we will have true evidence of salvation.

Piper is correct, and this message needs to be proclaimed widely.

[JohnBrian]…I agree with your statement except for your synonym-izing regeneration and salvation. I would put regeneration at the beginning of your statement, affirming that the individual who is regenerated will: repent towards God (Acts 20:21); believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31); call on the name of the Lord, and be saved.

I do not understand this straw you grasp. A regenerated individual is a born again individual, is an individual who is a new creature in Christ, is saved. How is it that saved cannot be the synonym that covers this phenomenon?

Alex, Jay posted something that had to do with how Piper explains delighting in God. He…even…said…that…

[Lee] I do not understand this straw you grasp. A regenerated individual is a born again individual, is an individual who is a new creature in Christ, is saved. How is it that saved cannot be the synonym that covers this phenomenon?

Regeneration is what CAUSES salvation, and is what God does.

Monergism affirms that God is the active agent in saving His people (the elect).

Synergism affirms that God is the passive agent in salvation - you know - the Christ that stands at the door knocking, waiting and hoping that someone will open the door and let Him in. If they don’t open the door, he goes away sad.

The difference between these views is significant for HOW one does preaching and evangelism, so it’s not a straw as far as I am concerned.