John Piper: Salvation Not 'A Decision'

Watched this online and agree. I am sure there will be a lynch mob assembled—would expect nothing less.

Oy vey. He continues drifting further and further from the ranch. I hear his posse coming, though, to save the day. Now Piper does say some true things which are quoted in the article, those are not up for debate but this is a prime example of one of John Piper’s characteristics, taking what is plain and confabulating it. We do make a decision when we believe the gospel and to say other wise is simply an attack on the prima facie of Scripture. No, our decision is not all that is involved but we still do make a decision and Mr. Piper is wrong, once again.

taking what is plain and confabulating it.

Huh? He takes what is plain and then converses or chats about it?

[Larry]

taking what is plain and confabulating it.

Huh? He takes what is plain and then converses or chats about it?

Maybe on some occasions he does but on others he is the master of confabulating what is plain by doing far more than just “chatting” about it and it continues to injure many souls.

Alex said:

this is a prime example of one of John Piper’s characteristics, taking what is plain and confabulating it. We do make a decision when we believe the gospel and to say other wise is simply an attack on the prima facie of Scripture. No, our decision is not all that is involved but we still do make a decision and Mr. Piper is wrong, once again.

I think you have a point, Alex. We do make a decision, but God coaxes us and enables us to make that decision.

The statement below, though, is a better example of making the simple confusing. Instead of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (a simple idea), he complicates it with a sort of emotional, nebulous, unmeasurable idea. Did I really find satisfaction in all that Jesus is when I turned to him in faith? Or did I merely sense my guilt and lostness before a holy God, understand that Jesus died and rose for me, and was drawn to trust in him alone and to turn away from my sin to him? That’s how I describe it. Simple. Piper does confuse (and emotionalize) the simple.

“Believing in Jesus is a soul coming to Jesus to be satisfied in all that he is. That is my definition of faith on the basis of John 6:35. This is not…a decision,” he said.

Piper gave his definition of salvation, explaining one concept in three different ways. He said that saving faith is “Seeing and savoring Jesus, being satisfied with all that God is for us in Jesus, and trusting Jesus,” and that those three things are “equivalent realities.”

Although the Psalms and other portions talk about finding satisfaction in God, that is not the crux of salvation.

It is not in making the Gospel more complex that we can prevent tares from growing around the wheat. The tares ARE going to be there. Let’s expect what Jesus said rather than trying to preclude it.

Good grief, I know people who are fruitful strong Christians, tried and true, who were saved with the defective “ask Jesus into your heart” message. If it is even close, the elect will make the transaction.

Let’s just do a quick exploration of some of the more common salvation passages.

But first—defining decision:
“The act of reaching a conclusion or making up one’s mind.”
“A determination arrived at after consideration.”
“A choice made between alternative courses of action in a situation of uncertainty.”
“The process of making a choice after thinking carefully.”

Now, some passages of note—
Acts 2:37-38 “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Acts 16:30-31 “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

Acts 9:6 “And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do….[Acts 22:12-16] And one Ananias…[said]…And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord….[Rom. 10:13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Repent, believe, call. Is it just me, or do these fall under the definition of decision?

If Piper were IFBx I’d likely conclude he wasn’t expositing Scripture but bolstering his paradigm. But we know that could never be.

[Alex Guggenheim] Maybe on some occasions he does but on others he is the master of confabulating what is plain by doing far more than just “chatting” about it and it continues to injure many souls.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confabulate] Confabulate means to talk informally http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/confabulate] or chat/converse. It doesn’t appear to mean “doing far more than just ‘chatting.’” So I am not sure what you are trying to say here. What do you think he does, particularly here? Do you mean he confuses things?

What you refer to is the most common or basic properties of the word but it also extends to this use:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/confabulation] unconscious filling in of gaps in memory with fabricated facts and experiences, commonly associated with organic pathology. It differs from lying in that the patient has no intention to deceive and believes the fabricated memories to be real.

I will say that my choice of the word could be replaced by a more definitive one for my point so substitute as you like. My point was that Piper was filling in with things he believes are true but are not though, unlike one who deliberates to add untruths, he is convinced these are genuine ingredients to believing the gospel, though his error is not benign in the least.

The core issue is: 1) Does the sinner’s making a decision trigger regeneration? Or, 2) Does regeneration trigger the sinner’s decision?

I suspect a heavy pursuit of this sub-text will not serve the interest of the thread’s creation but my guess some will pursue it anyway, oh well. Besides, regardless of where one places regeneration, a decision is still being made and Piper is still wrong.

[G. N. Barkman] The core issue is: 1) Does the sinner’s making a decision trigger regeneration? Or, 2) Does regeneration trigger the sinner’s decision?

The issue is not as you described. It is this—any individual who repents towards God (Acts 20:21), believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), or calls on the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13) is regenerated (saved). All semantic acrobatics aside, that is plain Scripture.

Now, your core tangent may be as you described, but it is not the core issue.

You had to bring Scripture into this Theological discussion.

There are a lot of untransformed people out there who never evidence being a new creation in Christ. Yet they hang their hopes on some qucik prayer decision they made at some time in their life. While I cannot see inside a person’s heart, the Apostles in God’s Word made it clear, that people people in this situation ought to be deeply concerned about their standing before God. They ought to examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith.

Also, when you read testimonies of saving faith before the modern revivalist movements, the terminology in these testimonies usually does not describe some decision like is often called for today.

I do think the churches need to be careful about being satisfied and declaring themselves successful because they have a number of people who recited a prayer for salvation even though there is often no evidence of salvation.

In Jesus time, people declared they made decisions to follow Him but then it was exposed that they really did not follow Him.

So, it seems to be that there is more to it than quick-prayerism decision making that is so often touted today.

[Lee]

[G. N. Barkman] The core issue is: 1) Does the sinner’s making a decision trigger regeneration? Or, 2) Does regeneration trigger the sinner’s decision?

The issue is not as you described. It is this—any individual who repents towards God (Acts 20:21), believes on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31), or calls on the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13) is regenerated (saved). All semantic acrobatics aside, that is plain Scripture.

Now, your core tangent may be as you described, but it is not the core issue.

You are using the terms regeneration and salvation synonymously. Monergists do not use them that way, and is why we insist that http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-regeneration-precedes-faith] regeneration precedes faith .

I agree with your statement except for your synonym-izing regeneration and salvation. I would put regeneration at the beginning of your statement, affirming that the individual who is regenerated will: repent towards God (Acts 20:21); believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31); call on the name of the Lord, and be saved.

I appreciate John Piper’s ministry in so many ways, and I don’t have it out for him nearly as much as Alex does, but I agree that Piper clouds this issue. The clear NT question of “What must I do to be saved?” is Repent and Believe. Sometimes repentance is emphasized (Lk. 5:32; Acts 2:37; 3:19; 5:31; 17:20; Rom. 2:4; 2 Cor. 7:10), sometimes faith/belief is emphasized (Jn. 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom. 10:9; Eph. 2:8-9), and sometimes both are mentioned (Mk. 1:14-15; Acts 20:21; Heb. 6:1). It is never “Savor Jesus” or “Treasure Jesus” or “Desire Jesus” or any of the other words that he emphasizes so much.

I think Piper is arguing against decisionalism—basing one’s assurance of salvation on a decision made (praying a prayer, walking an aisle) rather than on biblical evidences of regeneration such as found in 1 John—and on that point I agree with him. But I wish he would focus more on biblical terminology when talking about salvation rather than his unique terminology.