"90% of the people entering ministry DO NOT RETIRE from ministry, they either quit or have some sort of moral/ethical failure that disqualifies them"
what does this statistic say about the glaring absence of a support network?
I’ve seen this stat repeatedly and lived through it with my husband (who is nigh ready to stop pursuing ministry altogether because of discouragement and disillusionment). But I have to say that it’s almost always been used AGAINST struggling pastors. I.E. “Buck up-don’t be a failure like the other nine. Be the 10% that makes it.”
I wonder what we should learn from it about the shocking ABSENCE of a support network? Shouldn’t this stat make us cringe in shame that we’ve let the other nine walk away in discouragement? I’ve watched my husband desperately fight and fight to stay in ministry against these overwhelming odds. We even moved eight hours away from family to be in a church that we had hoped would support and assist him during a difficult ministry transition. We’ve asked for mentoring. We’ve worked menial jobs and taken state aid all in the hopes that one day he’d find a place to use his God-given gifts and training. All to no avail.
And while a conference for burned-out pastors is a fabulous idea, what are we going to do about the ones who are struggling to find ministry opportunities but have been overlooked because of a lack of network or a quiet personality? Please forgive the rant—it wasn’t intended to be one. I just am repeatedly amazed that men willing to commit themselves to a lifetime of ministry are treated a dime a dozen and ALLOWED to walk away.
Does this experience resonate with anyone else?
I’ve seen this stat repeatedly and lived through it with my husband (who is nigh ready to stop pursuing ministry altogether because of discouragement and disillusionment). But I have to say that it’s almost always been used AGAINST struggling pastors. I.E. “Buck up-don’t be a failure like the other nine. Be the 10% that makes it.”
I wonder what we should learn from it about the shocking ABSENCE of a support network? Shouldn’t this stat make us cringe in shame that we’ve let the other nine walk away in discouragement? I’ve watched my husband desperately fight and fight to stay in ministry against these overwhelming odds. We even moved eight hours away from family to be in a church that we had hoped would support and assist him during a difficult ministry transition. We’ve asked for mentoring. We’ve worked menial jobs and taken state aid all in the hopes that one day he’d find a place to use his God-given gifts and training. All to no avail.
And while a conference for burned-out pastors is a fabulous idea, what are we going to do about the ones who are struggling to find ministry opportunities but have been overlooked because of a lack of network or a quiet personality? Please forgive the rant—it wasn’t intended to be one. I just am repeatedly amazed that men willing to commit themselves to a lifetime of ministry are treated a dime a dozen and ALLOWED to walk away.
Does this experience resonate with anyone else?
Our culture views certain markers as the criteria for success, and has influenced how our churches chose leadership. No longer are 1Tim 3 and Titus 1 the standard.
Sometimes I think the answer is for churches to simplify. Cut back on programs, activities, and the general hoopla we’ve come to expect from any organization that expects to woo ‘customers’. Focus more on discipleship and mentoring, and stop worrying if everyone is ‘having fun’. Don’t direct efforts toward increasing attendance or judge the effectiveness of a sermon by how many people came down to the ‘altar’ to ‘make a decision’. Half of the stuff on the list linked to in the OP is a result, IMO, of out-of-whack priorities, and priorities get whacked when we allow unScriptural pressures and demands to influence and direct ministry efforts.
I once heard a pastor ‘apologizing’ that his wife wasn’t more active in church activities and ministries. I piped up and said her only Biblical requirement was to be his wife- not the piano player, Sunday School Superintendent, or chief cook and bottlewasher. He actually seemed shocked that anyone felt that way. Since when is the pastor’s wife the church equivalent of Vice President or Secretary of State while also channeling Martha Stewart and Gloria Gaither? No wonder people get burned out in the ministry, but the bottom line is that leadership has to be strong enough to lead, and not be influenced or defined by extra-Biblical expectations.
Let God direct the leadership and also sort out the followship.
Sometimes I think the answer is for churches to simplify. Cut back on programs, activities, and the general hoopla we’ve come to expect from any organization that expects to woo ‘customers’. Focus more on discipleship and mentoring, and stop worrying if everyone is ‘having fun’. Don’t direct efforts toward increasing attendance or judge the effectiveness of a sermon by how many people came down to the ‘altar’ to ‘make a decision’. Half of the stuff on the list linked to in the OP is a result, IMO, of out-of-whack priorities, and priorities get whacked when we allow unScriptural pressures and demands to influence and direct ministry efforts.
I once heard a pastor ‘apologizing’ that his wife wasn’t more active in church activities and ministries. I piped up and said her only Biblical requirement was to be his wife- not the piano player, Sunday School Superintendent, or chief cook and bottlewasher. He actually seemed shocked that anyone felt that way. Since when is the pastor’s wife the church equivalent of Vice President or Secretary of State while also channeling Martha Stewart and Gloria Gaither? No wonder people get burned out in the ministry, but the bottom line is that leadership has to be strong enough to lead, and not be influenced or defined by extra-Biblical expectations.
Let God direct the leadership and also sort out the followship.
Remember the old adage, “Figures can lie and liars can figure.” Please note that this is simply a “statistic” that someone “shared.” No source is cited. It sounds like one of Barna’s phony baloney statistics that is agenda generated. It made a good intro for this guy’s blog promoting his event which features a “licensed psychologist” who is held out as the expert on the subject.
Let’s not feed the myth that most pastors are psychologically frail individuals who exist on the brink of mental “burnout.” Most pastors I know are full of joy and are confidently leading their churches in a balanced and robust way.
Let’s not feed the myth that most pastors are psychologically frail individuals who exist on the brink of mental “burnout.” Most pastors I know are full of joy and are confidently leading their churches in a balanced and robust way.
Donn R Arms
I agree that this statistic has no support- it is not linked to any studies, so there is no way to verify the source, if there is one.
The specific figured seemed high to me, but I’ve seen similar stats repeatedly. Maybe not as high, but definitely as serious. Found this link and extensive article: http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=36562] http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=36562. And while I may debate some of the peripheral issues, I think the data definitely prove that there is a glaring problem with pastoral continuance.
And I think Susan R. is absolutely right. Part of what is broken is our understanding of ministry and performance. Even the issues that we’re personally facing with lack of support and mentoring could be easily resolved if ministries understood the role of pastor as a shepherd and leader, not as an activities/program coordinator. (FWI, we once had a pastor tell us that their church’s means of mentoring WAS a programmed track of classes.)
And Donn: Your experience is probably accurate that the pastors you know
And I think Susan R. is absolutely right. Part of what is broken is our understanding of ministry and performance. Even the issues that we’re personally facing with lack of support and mentoring could be easily resolved if ministries understood the role of pastor as a shepherd and leader, not as an activities/program coordinator. (FWI, we once had a pastor tell us that their church’s means of mentoring WAS a programmed track of classes.)
And Donn: Your experience is probably accurate that the pastors you know
are full of joy and are confidently leading their churches in a balanced and robust wayBut the tragic irony is that they represent the small minority that made it through the challenges and are still pastoring. They also could be masking hidden doubts and fears because their job security is so intricately connected to their spiritual health.
I don’t know who this “Perry Noble” guy is and when I read this, I chuckled when I got to the end and thought, “Nice marketing.” And like Don, I thought the “licensed psychiatrist” was a funny touch as in the reader suddenly saying, “OH, I wasn’t going to go, but now that I know he is licensed where do I sign up?” So this blog post I thought was showmanship. As far as the statistic, you can pull statistics out of anywhere. What he did is “create a crisis” which all good speakers and writers do. If you don’t notice, I am a bit cynical; however the content of the points he mentioned resonated with me because 2 years ago, nine of those ten described me exactly. I not only despaired of ministry, I despaired of life! Different temperaments have different struggles, but the depression/anxiety often grabbing those in the ministry ought not be dismissed with a nonchalant “Toughen up.”
I became a lead pastor of a small church (lead pastor only because the other pastor was a retired pastor-still on staff, but not really in the same capacity) under extremely difficult circumstances. What made this harder was that I had been in that church and assitant pastor for 6 years before. In fact, my wife and I were the veterans of the church being yet under 30. God had much that he needed to teach me and our young congregation. And before he would lead us he had to do some purging, purging of me and the church. Don’t misunderstand me, It was not that there was blatant, public sin in my life, but the greatest lesson I had to learn is that God is God and I am not—So I believe God brought me to the brink of physical, emotional, and spiritual ruin in such a loving manner so that I would know what it means to rest only Jesus Christ as the Shepherd of his church. I still struggle as I always will, I am sure. But I just wanted to note some lessons I learned being in the ministry for about ten years having seen God do amazing things while also being so low to have suicidal thoughts. I won’t tell the details of all that transpired in those two years, and to some people some events might seem insignificant or stronger men might not have crumbled as I did. But I am fine with that, God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
What do you do when you identify with these ten traits (I am not supporting the author but these ten points are real for many servants)?
1. Never underestimate the comfort of the Psalms. My Bible pages in Psalm 71,72, 57, 58, 55 are all wrinkled as I would cry out these Psalms to God late into the night. No comforts like the Sweet Psalmist of Israel.
2. Get Help. A pastor friend of mine drove 3 1/2 hours one way routinely to meet with me, pray with me and counsel me. When I called, I did not intend for him to do this, but he would have it no other way. I have a bond with that man of God now that cannot be broken. Jim Peet probably doesn’t remember this, but I posted a prayer request on SI during those days and he called me to pray with me over the phone. I don’t know Jim outside of SI. But that has stuck in my heart ever since that day. Thanks Jim.
3. Take Advice. When you are beat down, know certainly others will pile on. But often when others are simply trying to help, we interpret it as piling on. Sure, Job’s friends are there to tell you where you went wrong. But don’t ignore them. They might have good advice sometimes.
4. Listen to your spouse. One of the points was to withdraw from family. I did this, but my wife wouldn’t stand for it. She lovingly and graciously wept with me, but she also gave me Godly wisdom. She was honest with me and the wounds of a friend are faithful, especially your wife’s.
5. Pray like Jacob! I prayed and read and refused to stop until God would bless me. This was not a strength but rather in my weakness. I had nothing else that I could do. It didn’t matter if it was the same verse 100 times, I needed to keep reading it until God implanted it within my heart.
6. Don’t overestimate the value of vacation. When I was going through this time, I was told, I just needed to get away for a little bit. So I tried this. The problem was that the day before I was to come back, my stomach would begin to hurt, I would get headaches and would start to get dizzy. It seemed worse coming back than when I had left. This was one for me, that might not be the case for someone else with a different personality.
7. Don’t keep reading. A lot of my struggles had come to me through email and gossip. Sometimes I would read the emails or letters over and over again agonizing and second-guessing. Finally, I learned that I had to put things in a file and leave them there. Years later, I still see that file and am tempted to go back and read through things. But I am reminded of the darkness of depression and usually refrain.
8. Stop Analyzing and Rest. This was hard for me for I am very analytical. But I had to remember that the Scripture says that God created evil and calamity. (I don’t believe God created sin—evil being general badness in life). God has an eternal purpose in the badness and calamity not only for his glory, but for my advancement in grace. I must strive to enter into rest.
I know these things are not radical, but I couldn’t believe how much I identified with the OP’s ten points. I am sure there are more ways that only eternity will unfold as to how God caused me to endure affliction both external and internal. It is important to note, that I did develop bad habits in dealing with people that I suffer from today. This was a long process and still is. Actually it was 4 years ago that the struggles began, but 3 years ago when I truly hit 9 of the 10. I hope that this can be a help to someone who is struggling and if you need someone to pray or talk to. I am available, just email me pmatt@graceutah.com
I became a lead pastor of a small church (lead pastor only because the other pastor was a retired pastor-still on staff, but not really in the same capacity) under extremely difficult circumstances. What made this harder was that I had been in that church and assitant pastor for 6 years before. In fact, my wife and I were the veterans of the church being yet under 30. God had much that he needed to teach me and our young congregation. And before he would lead us he had to do some purging, purging of me and the church. Don’t misunderstand me, It was not that there was blatant, public sin in my life, but the greatest lesson I had to learn is that God is God and I am not—So I believe God brought me to the brink of physical, emotional, and spiritual ruin in such a loving manner so that I would know what it means to rest only Jesus Christ as the Shepherd of his church. I still struggle as I always will, I am sure. But I just wanted to note some lessons I learned being in the ministry for about ten years having seen God do amazing things while also being so low to have suicidal thoughts. I won’t tell the details of all that transpired in those two years, and to some people some events might seem insignificant or stronger men might not have crumbled as I did. But I am fine with that, God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
What do you do when you identify with these ten traits (I am not supporting the author but these ten points are real for many servants)?
1. Never underestimate the comfort of the Psalms. My Bible pages in Psalm 71,72, 57, 58, 55 are all wrinkled as I would cry out these Psalms to God late into the night. No comforts like the Sweet Psalmist of Israel.
2. Get Help. A pastor friend of mine drove 3 1/2 hours one way routinely to meet with me, pray with me and counsel me. When I called, I did not intend for him to do this, but he would have it no other way. I have a bond with that man of God now that cannot be broken. Jim Peet probably doesn’t remember this, but I posted a prayer request on SI during those days and he called me to pray with me over the phone. I don’t know Jim outside of SI. But that has stuck in my heart ever since that day. Thanks Jim.
3. Take Advice. When you are beat down, know certainly others will pile on. But often when others are simply trying to help, we interpret it as piling on. Sure, Job’s friends are there to tell you where you went wrong. But don’t ignore them. They might have good advice sometimes.
4. Listen to your spouse. One of the points was to withdraw from family. I did this, but my wife wouldn’t stand for it. She lovingly and graciously wept with me, but she also gave me Godly wisdom. She was honest with me and the wounds of a friend are faithful, especially your wife’s.
5. Pray like Jacob! I prayed and read and refused to stop until God would bless me. This was not a strength but rather in my weakness. I had nothing else that I could do. It didn’t matter if it was the same verse 100 times, I needed to keep reading it until God implanted it within my heart.
6. Don’t overestimate the value of vacation. When I was going through this time, I was told, I just needed to get away for a little bit. So I tried this. The problem was that the day before I was to come back, my stomach would begin to hurt, I would get headaches and would start to get dizzy. It seemed worse coming back than when I had left. This was one for me, that might not be the case for someone else with a different personality.
7. Don’t keep reading. A lot of my struggles had come to me through email and gossip. Sometimes I would read the emails or letters over and over again agonizing and second-guessing. Finally, I learned that I had to put things in a file and leave them there. Years later, I still see that file and am tempted to go back and read through things. But I am reminded of the darkness of depression and usually refrain.
8. Stop Analyzing and Rest. This was hard for me for I am very analytical. But I had to remember that the Scripture says that God created evil and calamity. (I don’t believe God created sin—evil being general badness in life). God has an eternal purpose in the badness and calamity not only for his glory, but for my advancement in grace. I must strive to enter into rest.
I know these things are not radical, but I couldn’t believe how much I identified with the OP’s ten points. I am sure there are more ways that only eternity will unfold as to how God caused me to endure affliction both external and internal. It is important to note, that I did develop bad habits in dealing with people that I suffer from today. This was a long process and still is. Actually it was 4 years ago that the struggles began, but 3 years ago when I truly hit 9 of the 10. I hope that this can be a help to someone who is struggling and if you need someone to pray or talk to. I am available, just email me pmatt@graceutah.com
I know the phrase “in the ministry” is common when speaking about Pastors or missionaries, but really every Christian is “in the ministry”
Perhaps it would be wise to use “vocational” as a modifier … as in “He’s in the vocational ministry” ….
(So slap me if I am wrong but)
I consider myself as “in the ministry” even though I don’t make my income from a church or Christian organization.
Thoughts?
Perhaps it would be wise to use “vocational” as a modifier … as in “He’s in the vocational ministry” ….
(So slap me if I am wrong but)
I consider myself as “in the ministry” even though I don’t make my income from a church or Christian organization.
Thoughts?
This is how Perry Noble stays ‘healthy’ as a shepherd, he beats his sheep:
[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOBZldF6Y0M&feature=player_embedded
Yes, this is a small sample, but there are plenty more. The man is in charge, no doubt about it.
[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOBZldF6Y0M&feature=player_embedded
Yes, this is a small sample, but there are plenty more. The man is in charge, no doubt about it.
but his statistics refelect reality. There are many full time ministry leaders here in the Bible belt who are not healthy in their souls. I’m not saying they are on the edge of moral failure. I’m saying when you are let behind the curtain, you see that they wrestle with the very same issues that afflict everyone else. Of course they can’t admit fear, anxiety, pressure, sin, lust, doubt, hate, addiction, fill-in-the-blank. Everything in their lives - destiny, self-worth, future - is tied to appearing as if they are “confidently leading their churches in a balanced and robust way.” Anything less is career suicide. Seeking help for their problems is career suicide. Actual suicide is a possiblity and has been a reality.
The issues/pain that men and women bring into ministry do not go away because they are in ministry. Those issues just mix in with the pain/complications that come from ministry. Without Jesus consistently touching their hearts, they end up with a toxic stew that will eventually manifest.
My perspective comes from working in a ministry that has become a safe place for hurting Christian leaders. We have sat with many dozens of full time leaders and their families over the last few years. Fortunately Jesus heals. I applaud Pastor Noble for speaking out on this subject and for attempting to help the church in this area.
The issues/pain that men and women bring into ministry do not go away because they are in ministry. Those issues just mix in with the pain/complications that come from ministry. Without Jesus consistently touching their hearts, they end up with a toxic stew that will eventually manifest.
My perspective comes from working in a ministry that has become a safe place for hurting Christian leaders. We have sat with many dozens of full time leaders and their families over the last few years. Fortunately Jesus heals. I applaud Pastor Noble for speaking out on this subject and for attempting to help the church in this area.
http://apprising.org/2009/12/08/perry-noble-says-youre-a-jackass/ Apprising Ministries
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/should-perry-noble-resign/ Should Perry Noble Resign?
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/04/17/perry-nobles-message-from-acd… Perry Noble’s message from AC/DC Sunday
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=14344] Perry Noble and NewSpring Church Attempt to Silence Their Critic: Dr. James Duncan
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/12/09/should-perry-noble-resign/ Should Perry Noble Resign?
http://defendingcontending.com/2009/04/17/perry-nobles-message-from-acd… Perry Noble’s message from AC/DC Sunday
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=14344] Perry Noble and NewSpring Church Attempt to Silence Their Critic: Dr. James Duncan
CanJAmerican - my blog
CanJAmerican - my twitter
whitejumaycan - my youtube
Eyeopening … thanks for the links
Jim
Jim
Under the Apprising Ministries link, I listened to a 1 minute clip. I didn’t hear anything too outrageous unless it was the word “jackass”. He correctly points out the fact that our churches are filled with believers who never apply one truth that they are taught. He actually seems the opposite of the “seeker-sensitive” sterotype so reviled here on SI. He apparently doesn’t give seekers anything they want.
After following JohnBrian’s links, I have to say that I feel bad even given the least amount of credence to anything Perry Noble said. The whole kingdom being built seems rotten to the core. I posted earlier having been through difficult times, to be a comfort or help to someone in need. Not to support PN or any ministry like his. It sounds to me his answer at his conference about discouraged pastors would be to “blow off” the sheep and puff your chest out. (I don’t know if that is true, but after doing some PN research, it wouldn’t surprise me). One lesson I learned through affliction as a pastor leading people is to listen to your critics. Their words may contain barbs, but there can be a benefit to listening to the bleetings of sheep with humility.
Jim,
I wanted to follow-up on your topic about “being in ministry.” You are right that ALL Christians are to minister and I guess it’s an age-old debate about whether certain individuals should be paid to devote themselves exclusively to “ministry” or not. I’ve known several folks who actually came to the conviction that they could not in good conscience and serve as lay pastors while working other jobs.
I think the dilemma for many seminary educated men is slightly more complicated though as you probably already know. Usually when young men commit to lifetime ministry, they are encouraged to attend Bible college and seminary immediately. And in doing, they forgo the opportunity to educate themselves in another profession; while they are doing internships and following a pastoral track, they don’t develop another skill or career path. What results is the sad dilemma that they are simply not trained/have a degree to do anything else. When they find themselves out of professional ministry, even temporarily, many end up working entry level jobs that can’t care for their families. (The joke when my husband was in seminary was that you needed to marry a nurse because they are in high demand in their field and get paid well.)
I know it’s just another expression of I Cor 7 where Paul talks about the tension a married man feels between devoting himself to the work of the church and the needs of his family. But I’ve often wondered if my sons ever are called to professional pastoral work if I wouldn’t counsel them to get a degree in another field first.
I wanted to follow-up on your topic about “being in ministry.” You are right that ALL Christians are to minister and I guess it’s an age-old debate about whether certain individuals should be paid to devote themselves exclusively to “ministry” or not. I’ve known several folks who actually came to the conviction that they could not in good conscience and serve as lay pastors while working other jobs.
I think the dilemma for many seminary educated men is slightly more complicated though as you probably already know. Usually when young men commit to lifetime ministry, they are encouraged to attend Bible college and seminary immediately. And in doing, they forgo the opportunity to educate themselves in another profession; while they are doing internships and following a pastoral track, they don’t develop another skill or career path. What results is the sad dilemma that they are simply not trained/have a degree to do anything else. When they find themselves out of professional ministry, even temporarily, many end up working entry level jobs that can’t care for their families. (The joke when my husband was in seminary was that you needed to marry a nurse because they are in high demand in their field and get paid well.)
I know it’s just another expression of I Cor 7 where Paul talks about the tension a married man feels between devoting himself to the work of the church and the needs of his family. But I’ve often wondered if my sons ever are called to professional pastoral work if I wouldn’t counsel them to get a degree in another field first.
the whole schtick of a conference for depressed pastors seems a little silly on reflection. People who are struggling with depression are usually not able to identify it in the moment and are less likely to go to a conference to deal with. In fact, they’ll probably be tempted to withdraw from any loud, noisy, social setting like say… um, a conference.
Discussion