John MacArthur: "It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities"

Or is it about endeavoring to identify oneself with an activity or lifestyle that really has nothing to do with how we are told to identify ourselves with Christ, or exhibit the fruits of the Spirit?

As problematic as alcoholism is today, I would think that the message of extreme caution would/should be the loudest, and not ‘eat, drink, and be merry’ because you have Christian liberty. Our Christian liberty is limited to a great degree by how it affects others, is it not?

[Shaynus] I’ve heard some crazy statistics related to England and Holland and how there were however many many liters of gin consumed for every man woman and child per day. Almost whole countries were in a state of inebriation all day long because they mixed gin with their drinking water to really really REALLY kill all the bacteria (not a good idea!).

i’d be interested in seeing more about these statistics. the percent alcohol has to be pretty high to accomplish anything. usually 70% ethanol is used straight, which isn’t so useful for hydration and not likely to be reached by mixing gin with water. the easiest treatment for biological contamination is boiling and it’s still recommended by health agencies today. i haven’t seen any recognized health agency recommend adding alcohol to water.

What is generally missing from this discussion, and from the discussion of alcohol in general in the reformed / theological community, is that, consistently throughout Scripture, alcoholic beverage is always treated as a unique substance. IOW, drinking an alcoholic beverage is never, never, never the same as drinking any other beverage. I can drink water, tea, coffee, coke, kool-aid (gag), milk, egg-nog, prune juice, Monster, juice carrots and rutabaga like Jack Lalane (RIP), or whatever without a notice, but drinking any alcoholic beverage will always be making a statement. No other substance, and particularly no food or beverage, receives this unique designation.

Only alcoholic beverage is designated with its own specific morality: “Wine is a scorner—strong drink is noisy….(YLT).”

Only of alcoholic beverage is it categorically stated that the general end will be towards immorality: “…thine eyes shall behold strange women…”


Only of alcoholic beverage is the result of uninhibited perversity in thought and communication a practical guarantee: “…thine heart shall utter perverse things.”

Which means that alcoholic beverages had/have specific utilization and specific implications in specific Biblical/historic contexts. It is here that the discussion must center, with an honest portrayal of the uniqueness of alcoholic beverage in the scriptural/spiritual context in relation to the cause of Christ in the present culture and generation.

Due to unique substances which I have imbibed too much of (namely Diet Mountain Dew), I’m up way too late reading this.
Let’s go back and think about some things which are Scripture principles:
1. Drunkenness is always a sin - You can try and slice it any way you want and say that the level of drunkenness is not defined. How much is too much? How about when it starts to affect you? The verses above are a starting point.
2. Current statistics state that alcohol is the most harmful drug you can be involved with: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/2010/nov/02/alcohol_more_harmful_he…
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)60198…
and yet naive Christians play with it as though it does not affect anyone. It is precisely because people using alcohol affect society and others around them so greatly that it is dangerous.
3. Where is the blessing in alcohol? Are people really using it to “make their hearts glad”, or is it simply escapism? Is it just for you? Is it a blessing to others around you? Statistics show 11% of those who try alcohol become addicted. Which of them are you going to help to become enslaved by alcohol? Paul refused to be a stumbling block for any.
4. How does it help your testimony before the world? Can you talk to others about the sin of drunkenness when you are drinking? The small sample size of drinkers I have observed would tell me that it would give them less of a sense that drunkenness was a sin and that Christians are supposed to be unique from the world around them. In fact, they would think such people hypocrites!

I’m regularly involved in jail ministry, and EVERY time I ask if drugs and alcohol were involved in the participants being in jail, the vast majority say that it was. Yet we seem to have become exceedingly casual about it. I find some of these discussions ridiculous and, quite honestly, offensive. I haven’t seen anybody prove that alcohol is a good thing today and I should go out of my way to get some. In Scripture it was clearly mentioned, but, they had much more limited resources than today. They had little or no adequate means of preservation. There was little or no ability to make drinking water better. Yet some seem to treat drinking in Scripture times like grabbing a beer today. I’m sure there’s going to be a flood of justification in response. If there is, you better make it better than what we’ve seen so far! Mac is right in what he says, but, as you can see, I don’t think he has gone far enough.

Two thoughts on this.

1) MacArthur over-stepped, and they are defending his statements like he’s the pope or something. There may be some who are extreme in their affection for beer, yes, but the YRR movement is not about drinking. Please read the Ordinary Pastor’s http://www.ordinarypastor.com/?p=8366] tactful and graceful reply to MacArthur. And on a related topic, read http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/147973-not-radical… Darren Patrick’s reply to MacArthur. I am fine with MacArthur expressing concern, but he doesn’t fact-check or seem to try to really understand where the other side is coming form. He blasts away in a fundy-esque way which as Eric Raymond (the ordinary Pastor) explains is quite unhelpful.

2) On the wine debate, I would challenge people to prove that wine is an evil drink. The Proverbs passage are poetic and refer to the state of drunkenness. There are numerous passages which teach that wine is God’s gift to man for his joy. Wine produces joy. http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2006/03/20/wine-gladden-heart/ I have a whole post detailing this argument. I was convicted by my study of wine in the Bible, and changed my practice to make a sober and appreciative use of God’s good gift of wine. Who am I to treat something God says is a gift to man as an evil poison? Do we really know better than God? Wasn’t drunkenness a problem back then as much as it is now? And yet Paul doesn’t preach abstinence to the Corinthians for their excessive wine drinking during the Lord’s Supper. We can’t find abstinence taught except for specific periods of time (during service in the Temple or during a Nazarite vow), or as part of a special vow a particular family took which was not mandated by God (i.e. the Rechabites). Not only is wine commended, the drinking of “strong drink” is also commended (see the passage Charlie quotes among others).

Also the 1 in 4, which isn’t necessarily the ratio used, it’s a guess, even that ratio would end up with about a 4% alcoholic content = equal to or slightly higher than most beer drunk in America today. I encourage you to read this link which was shared earlier: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf] http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf It explains that wine is never used for purification of water, now or in ancient times.

I wouldn’t go as far as the author of this post, but he does get into the weeds of scripture on the subject and comes out differently than MacArthur.

http://zionica.com/2011/08/16/john-macarthur-drops-the-booze-bomb/

[Bob Hayton] Two thoughts on this.

1) MacArthur over-stepped, and they are defending his statements like he’s the pope or something. There may be some who are extreme in their affection for beer, yes, but the YRR movement is not about drinking. Please read the Ordinary Pastor’s http://www.ordinarypastor.com/?p=8366] tactful and graceful reply to MacArthur. And on a related topic, read http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/147973-not-radical… Darren Patrick’s reply to MacArthur. I am fine with MacArthur expressing concern, but he doesn’t fact-check or seem to try to really understand where the other side is coming form. He blasts away in a fundy-esque way which as Eric Raymond (the ordinary Pastor) explains is quite unhelpful.

2) On the wine debate, I would challenge people to prove that wine is an evil drink. The Proverbs passage are poetic and refer to the state of drunkenness. There are numerous passages which teach that wine is God’s gift to man for his joy. Wine produces joy. http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2006/03/20/wine-gladden-heart/ I have a whole post detailing this argument. I was convicted by my study of wine in the Bible, and changed my practice to make a sober and appreciative use of God’s good gift of wine. Who am I to treat something God says is a gift to man as an evil poison? Do we really know better than God? Wasn’t drunkenness a problem back then as much as it is now? And yet Paul doesn’t preach abstinence to the Corinthians for their excessive wine drinking during the Lord’s Supper. We can’t find abstinence taught except for specific periods of time (during service in the Temple or during a Nazarite vow), or as part of a special vow a particular family took which was not mandated by God (i.e. the Rechabites). Not only is wine commended, the drinking of “strong drink” is also commended (see the passage Charlie quotes among others).

Also the 1 in 4, which isn’t necessarily the ratio used, it’s a guess, even that ratio would end up with about a 4% alcoholic content = equal to or slightly higher than most beer drunk in America today. I encourage you to read this link which was shared earlier: http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf] http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/Wine-Ancient-World.pdf It explains that wine is never used for purification of water, now or in ancient times.

Well said, Bob.

Thanks be to God for the gift of wine. May God continue to grant us self-control to enjoy it properly, along with his many other gifts to us.

Grace and peace to all my brethren who prefer to abstain. I respect your liberty to do so.

[Todd Mitchell]

Well said, Bob.

Thanks be to God for the gift of wine. May God continue to grant us self-control to enjoy it properly, along with his many other gifts to us.

Grace and peace to all my brethren who prefer to abstain. I respect your liberty to do so.

Thanks, Todd. I totally agree. I respect your liberty. Obviously with some ministry contexts such as Idaho, perhaps, 1 Cor. 9 would play a little more strongly into why one would give up their use of alcohol.

Why do so many jump to the conclusion, and “interpret” the Bible as saying Jesus made alcoholic wine? It never says He made alcohol, just that He made wine (GK - oinos).

Jesus referred to unfermented wine as “wine (oinos)” in Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38. And they had multiple ways of preserving unfermented wine.

Scripture says Jesus made wine. Whether you believe that was alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine is not you just taking the Bible for what it says - either view is an “interpretation.” But there are a number of good solid reasons to interpret John 2 as referring to nonalcoholic wine.
David R. Brumbelow

is that I don’t want my children to ever be in a moving vehicle with someone at the wheel who is experiencing the ‘joy’ of wine. We may have the liberty to drink alcohol responsibly, but one person’s liberty seems to all too often be another person’s wheelchair or casket. I can’t wrap my mind around this one, and as the wife of a former alcoholic, I imagine that I will never be unbiased on the subject.

I think the overarching message of the OP is valid and needed.

It should not take a doctor of divinity to notice that Scripture consistently celebrates virtues such as self-control, sober-mindedness, purity of heart, the restraint of our fleshly lusts, and similar fruits of the Holy Spirit’s sanctifying work in our lives. Surely these are what we ought hold in highest esteem, model in our daily lives, and honor on our websites, rather than trying so hard to impress the world with unfettered indulgence in the very things that hold so many unbelievers in bondage.

[David R. Brumbelow] Why do so many jump to the conclusion, and “interpret” the Bible as saying Jesus made alcoholic wine? It never says He made alcohol, just that He made wine (GK - oinos).

Jesus referred to unfermented wine as “wine (oinos)” in Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38. And they had multiple ways of preserving unfermented wine.

Scripture says Jesus made wine. Whether you believe that was alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine is not you just taking the Bible for what it says - either view is an “interpretation.” But there are a number of good solid reasons to interpret John 2 as referring to nonalcoholic wine.
David R. Brumbelow

David, why do you say that “new wine” in these verses refers to unfermented wine?

“New wine” doesn’t refer to non-alcoholic wine, but rather “to the juice of grapes in the initial stages of fermentation. New wine (Heb. tiros, Gk. oinos neos) was wine from the most recent harvest, while old wine was wine from the previous year” (ISBE). Note that new wine was also intoxicating (Acts 2:13).

Are we really going to have that debate again?
I’m not sure I feel about that. Sometimes it does seem like the debate is changing a little. Like the various positions are understanding one another a little better. That would be good.

So I’ll put a toe in I guess. I think there’s some kind of fallacy of definition involved in looking to wine->joy passages and concluding that wine is for us today. But I’m not ready to put a nail in it yet. I’ll add to my growing do list to write some kind of reply to Bob’s post here.

In the mean time, I’m buoyed a little to see somebody who isn’t “IFB” speaking for abstinence.

Note that new wine was also intoxicating (Acts 2:13)

I thought that was part of the ‘mocking’- IOW, they were drunk on grape juice before lunch.

OK- wait a second. This is going to turn into another wine discussion, unless, of course, we can squeeze CCM in here somewhere. This is just little ol’ me talkin’ here, but can we focus more on the main topic of the OP? Dr. MacArthur never suggests that drinking wine is wrong, but that alcohol, risque humor, cigar smoking, tattoos et al shouldn’t be the badge of identity that it has become in some circles of Christianity. And with all the warnings about wine in Scripture, our attitude towards it should be one of caution, not http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-happy093.gif .

Pretty please? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/flowers.gif

[David R. Brumbelow] Why do so many jump to the conclusion, and “interpret” the Bible as saying Jesus made alcoholic wine? It never says He made alcohol, just that He made wine (GK - oinos).

Jesus referred to unfermented wine as “wine (oinos)” in Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:22; Luke 5:37-38. And they had multiple ways of preserving unfermented wine.

Scripture says Jesus made wine. Whether you believe that was alcoholic or nonalcoholic wine is not you just taking the Bible for what it says - either view is an “interpretation.” But there are a number of good solid reasons to interpret John 2 as referring to nonalcoholic wine.
David R. Brumbelow

So when Ephesians 5:18 says “be not drunk with ‘oinos’ ” what was it saying if it wasn’t alcoholic? If it was lower alcohol wine, at least it was possible to get drunk off of it, right? If Ephesians is saying one thing with the use of the greek word, then what must John be saying with it?

“And they had multiple ways of preserving unfermented wine.” Care to back that up? Are you talking about vinegar?

Aaron,

This is from http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2008/08/07/two-wine-theory/ my post on the 2 wine theory :

You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart. (Ps. 104:14-15)

Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything. (Eccl. 10:19)

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. (Eccl. 9:7)

But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’ (Judges 9:13)

Then Absalom commanded his servants, “Mark when Amnon’s heart is merry with wine, and when I say to you, ‘Strike Amnon,’ then kill him. Do not fear; have I not commanded you? Be courageous and be valiant.” (2 Samuel 13:28 )

And Abigail came to Nabal, and behold, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk. So she told him nothing at all until the morning light. In the morning, when the wine had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him, and he became as a stone. (1 Sam. 25:36)

On the seventh day, when the heart of the king was merry with wine, he commanded Mehuman, Biztha, Harbona, Bigtha and Abagtha, Zethar and Carkas, the seven eunuchs who served in the presence of King Ahasuerus, (Esther 1:10)

The LORD of hosts will protect them, and they shall devour, and tread down the sling stones, and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine, and be full like a bowl, drenched like the corners of the altar. (Zechariah 9:15)

Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD. (Zechariah 10:7)

You’ll notice this is more explicit than just wine causes joy. It is that the very phrase that describes the intoxicating effects of wine is also used in praising it as God’s gift. I take this to mean the very element of wine which lifts the spirit, can also when consumed in excess, cause the mind to lose control (drunkenness). There is an appropriate partaking of this spirit-uplifting quality of wine, and there is an inappropriate abuse of this.

It is passages like this, that predispose me to accepting alcoholic wine - and the very intoxicating qualities of wine as a drink, to be in view when Scripture praises it as a good gift to man.