"Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me ..."

[JobK] And yes, the “new Calvinist” movement is disturbingly tolerant those exhibiting serious problems with their doctrines and practice within their ranks. However, in fairness, by doing so they are no little different from contemporary evangelicals in general.

Nor much different from modern fundamentalists for that matter.

[dmyers] Alex Guggenheim: “injurious and novel teachings (e.g.,Piper’s Christian Hedonism)”? Have you read the book, or are you just reacting to the term Christian Hedonism? I’ve read the book (and taught it as a multi-week series in an adult Sunday School class at an independent, fundamental Baptist church). It’s neither injurious nor novel, but is instead the exact opposite — very beneficial and as old as scripture itself.

No, it isn’t as old as Scripture itself, it is about 25 years old. Now, the thread is not about Piper and I certainly am not going to get into a protracted debate about the what I am others believer are novel and injurious elements of Piper’s teaching but I have considered doing a protracted series on many of the alarming statements and erring views of Piper along with his damaged hermeneutic at my own blog that is contained in his Christian Hedonism. However, it remains to be seen if time will be allotted for such an endeavor. My hope is this makes it clear as an answer to your inquiry as to whether or not I have read the book (in other words one cannot do a series on a book without ever having read it so need I state the obvious?).

But in the mean time you can read these critiques of CH which deal with some fundamenmentally errant teachings from the book:

http://limerickreformed.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&i…] A Critical Examination of John Piper’s “Christian Hedonism”

http://reformationanglicanism.blogspot.com/2010/12/reasonable-christian… Reasonable Christian: A Critique of John Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” by Manuel Kuhs

Finally, while you may respond to this post, beyond this momentary sidebar, the OP is my interest and for further discussion if you wish to create a thread devoted to discussing the issue of Piper’s Christian Hedonism, I will happily participate.

Although I do not agree with him on certain aspects of doctrine, I have great respect for C. J. Mahaney and have benefited greatly from his sermons and books. Obviously there were some things going on behind the scenes of which we were all unaware. I think it takes tremendous courage and humility to take the steps C. J. outlines in his letter, and I hope and pray that there will be healing and reconciliation. I echo those who wish that more fundamentalist leaders had taken such action to deal with pride and sinful authoritarian leadership.

Grace and courage? Essentially CJ Mahaney’s hand is being forced after years of unresponsiveness. I am sure the people whom he was essentially threatening with a form of blackmail didn’t benefit from his book on humility as much as the rest of those that “didn’t know what was going on”. Feel free to read the documents at the Survivors website which has a link to them. They are shocking.

Remember, this isn’t about anything CJ Mahaney may have said, whether by accident or deliberately, that was true or any of his actions that were either incidentally or by design to be good, but the numerous things he said and did that belie and betray his own words and teachings and his position(s) and were grievous offenses against many.

Here is an excerpt from an article on this that is worth reading at http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/07/08/c-j-mahaney%E2%80%99s-temporary-… The Warburg Watch :

6. Be prepared for all of the sycophants to declare that this temporary step down is just an example of Mahaney’s humility.

On Monday, we will discuss the role that cognitive dissonance plays in the denial of Mahaney’s real sin. But, for now, legends worthy of Lord of the Rings are being written. Here is one at Gospel Gripped. LINK

The blogger points out Mahaney’s wondrous response when confronted by these issues. He seems to say that Mahaney is a leader amongst leaders by taking this action.

“The fact is that C.J. was confronted regarding “pride, unentreatability (or being unapproachable), decit (sic), sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.” The world considers this par for the course among leaders. Yet, C.J. will have none of this.”

He is trying to paint Mahaney as this wonderful, godly man who is a leader among leaders. This is patently ridiculous. If the documents, along with the reports of abuse on such blogs as SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge, are to be believed, then Mahaney is among the most callous and self-absorbed individuals in today’s religious firmament. These concerns have existed for years, perhaps decades in some respects. This is not humility; it is hubris! And no amount of redefining will past muster. So can we cut out the fairy tales?

BTW for those of you interested in the Dever/Mohler/Mahaney connection and his odd ascension to partnership with these men at T4G via Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, here is another interesting article from the Wartburg Watch T http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/05/the-mahaney-money-machine/ he Mahaney Money Machine (the article does include some conjecture which should be taken just as that but does systematically document the rise of the Dever/Mohler/Mahaney relationship and T4G conferencing together as Mahaney’s increased his contributions to SBTS).

Finally, for those of you who have the time and courage to read the documents a reflection at http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2011/07/08/cj-mahaney-and-the-sgm-wik… Bene Diction Blogs On says a great deal about what is in them and what to expect:

The title is funny, but the content is decidedly not. This is meticulously detailed and chilling information from a former SGM minister who was ousted.
It’s not a fun read, it’s a slog; full of inside language and syrupy spirituality in between incredible nit-picking about sin. The larger picture could be lost in the several hundred pages of minutia.

Fear. Hypocrisy. Leadership tiptoeing through an autocratic minefield. Self-absorption to the neglect of so many others being crushed, wounded and hurt. Wounded and frightened leaders who wound others.

And yet, the SGM wikileak documents give an amazingly detailed picture of years and years of problems in this troubled and toxic group of churches. A sick system is exposed.

I doubt the SGM wikileak documents will be online for long.
What strikes me, apart from the obsessive and meticulous documentation by Brent Detwiler is the dreary pattern of repeated behavior; years and years of spiritual abuse, neglect, punishment, hobbling, rules and fear. Years of empty, empty words.

I think Mahaney fanboys will lash out online as news of Mahaney’s leave spreads, they are quick to do so for lesser evils.

This is a sorry and shameful mess, and I do agree with Mahaney cheerleaders in part. Pray for every SGM member and former member, pray for safety for whistleblowers, families and for the outside conflict resolution team. I think this outside team will do their job, get paid; but I’m not optimistic what they offer be heeded.

Grace and courage? Essentially CJ Mahaney’s hand is being forced after years of unresponsiveness. I am sure the people whom he was essentially threatening with a form of blackmail didn’t benefit from his book on humility as much as the rest of those that “didn’t know what was going on”.

Remember, this isn’t about anything CJ Mahaney may have said, whether by accident or deliberately, that was true or any of his actions that were either incidentally or by design to be good, but the numerous things he said and did that belie and betray his own words and teachings and his position(s) and were grievous offenses against many.

I think we need to be careful here. Mr. Mahaney says:

Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me and informed me about offenses they have with me as well as other leaders in Sovereign Grace. These charges are serious and they have been very grieving to read. These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.

I believe God is kindly disciplining me through this. I believe I have by the grace of God perceived a degree of my sin, and I have been grieved by my sin and its effects on others. I have had the opportunity to confess my sin to some of those affected in various ways by my sin. And I am so very grateful for their forgiveness. But I want to perceive and confess any and all sin I have committed. Although my experience of conviction has already started—and this is an evidence of God’s mercy—I’m sure there is more for me to perceive and acknowledge. Even with the charges I disagree with it has been beneficial to examine my soul and ask for the observation of others. And I am resolved to take responsibility for my sin and every way my leadership has been deficient, and this would include making any appropriate confessions, public or private. Most importantly I want to please God during this season of examination and evaluation.

So here is what I am going to do. I’ve asked to take a leave of absence in order to give time to considering these charges, examine my heart, and receive the appropriate help from others.

So- are we going to put people into a corner, and castigate them for not repenting, but when they DO repent, dismiss it because we assume they are not sincere, or their hand was forced?

When was the last time anyone in IFB leadership stepped down because they were deemed unfit by others? Perhaps around the time the brontosaurus breathed its last?

The lesson learned will be “Don’t bother repenting, no one is going to believe you anyway”. I think what we must do when someone repents is accept it at face value until there is evidence to indicate some kind of deceit or manipulation. I certainly want my confessions and apologies treated that way, and I think how we react to someone else’s efforts to repent says more about us than it does about them.

I agree that bad theology can and does lead to other problems in character, behavior, and even worse theology. The implications of Mr. Mahaney’s theology should be examined along with everything else.

We must stop holding men in such high regard that both we and they forget that they put on their pants one leg at a time. Perhaps then, when someone is overtaken in a fault, it wouldn’t seem like the sky is falling.

I slogged through much of the first document (it was a book!) on the wiki leaks. Not because I delight in scandal, but I can honestly say I knew almost nothing of Sovereign Grace Ministries and CJ Mahaney. Only knowing that he has written some books, and that he seemed to lean toward charismatic practice. My comments have nothing to do with CJ Mahaney because I had a hard time following the language employed in the documents accusing him of such things. And the accusations seemed primarily about internal issues such as pride, lording, etc. Something that would be the situation for everyone. But there were a few things that really disturbed me and has even shaken my confidence in something that I did not even know was connected to CJ Mahaney—Sovereign Grace Music (which I enjoy the lyrics much).

• The lingo employed in the wikkileaks documents. It seemed that the SGM organization was filled with its own specific language and vocabulary. It kind of reminds me of mormonism (not doctrinally, but in having their own way of saying things). Red flags pop up to me when a group all talks the same way. Maybe I am overly suspicious but they constantly talked about caring for one another, but they obviously had a specific action in mind, not just the general principle of being thoughtful. It seemed like the “care” for one another was another way of saying watching each other for the smallest of manifestations of sin.
  
  
• The High control wielded by this board of “apostles” Not just over the churches but over each others every detail of their lives. It was kind of creepy simply reading their correspondence (sorry if that is offensive, it was just they way it appeared to me). I know that this was written by frustrated person (people), but I am not talking about the accusations, rather the word for word correspondence and meeting notes.
  
  
• The personal pettiness within the leadership. Not that the sins of pride and anger are petty, but it seemed to me that the leaders spent more time “caring for one another” and offending and apologizing one another than for the flock’s well-being. Granted, I don’t really understand a non-independent setting, and I know that these are the “apostles” not the “pastors” but I guess I had no idea that this ministry was so “top-down” in its approach.
  
  
• The blatant charismaticism. They aren’t continuists, they are full blown charismatics. I read much in the documents speaking of leaders receiving “a word” waiting for “God to speak.” Not sure how that can be connected to reformed theology. And Calvinism and Charismaticism seems so far from each other.
  

My opinion as one who had no opinion but was intrigued because I have been blessed by various offshoots of Sovereign Grace Ministries (and I feel rather embarrassed that I never really realized there was even a connection between CJM and Sovereign Grace and Bob Kauflin before), was that the structure and organization is a dangerous feeder of pride and ego. When anyone is placed within an “untouchable” state their is bound to develop “cultish” tendencies within any group. My opinion, the best thing for SG churches is to hold to their reformed beliefs, become independent, and just stick with the Word instead of insisting upon being charismatics. Of course, my opinion is my opinion and anything but authoritative. I came away thanking God for a local church where I can minister the Word and the men of the church are truly my brothers and will keep me accountable. I don’t have a governing board to keep me accountable I have a flock of sheep (really they are God’s) who will not tolerate nonsense, dictatorship, and anything but the Word of God explained and expounded.

My two cents for what the pennies are worth.

[Susan R] When was the last time anyone in IFB leadership stepped down because they were deemed unfit by others? Perhaps around the time the brontosaurus breathed its last?

The lesson learned will be “Don’t bother repenting, no one is going to believe you anyway”. I think what we must do when someone repents is accept it at face value until there is evidence to indicate some kind of deceit or manipulation. I certainly want my confessions and apologies treated that way, and I think how we react to someone else’s efforts to repent says more about us than it does about them.

Actually the lesson here is that if you aren’t an IFB, then there’s no need to be gracious or assume that the provided explanation by said CE is actually true…there must be something drastically wrong, esp. if you think their doctrine is wrong.

The reaction on this thread largely parallels the Piper leave of absence thread and is in stark contrast to the Phelps threads, where Phelps must be held innocent of all possible wrongdoing in the matter by his defenders.

@Everyone-
It should be noted that the information at SGMSurvivors appears to be comprised of numerous leaked personal and private letters and emails, so consider that if/when you read them.

And leakers tend to be selective in what they leak. So one thing can sound far worse without the context of another.

Just for clarification. I do understand the nature of leakers (that sounds funny) and having faced false allegations, I can relate. My point is that after reading the documents (not the leaker’s complaints, but the general tone of all the conversations), I tend to agree with those earlier that are not quick to jump on Brother Mahaney, but to point out that the SGM structure is possibly one of the major problems. I believe we ought to give people the benefit of the doubt whether they are Phelps or Mahaney, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists, or Christians or non-Christians even. That is genuine love. I guess I am just a little blown away having for the first time really sought to research the SGM movement. Interestingly they do call themselves a movement and they are very top down. I wonder what kind of counsel Pastor Dever will give when it seems his polity is so different. I hope that he and others can help CJ as well as the whole “movement.” I know that we all need accountability and I am thankful for some other pastor friends within close proximity that will be unafraid to call me out if they see sinful behavior.

[Susan R]
I think we need to be careful here. Mr. Mahaney says:

Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me and informed me about offenses they have with me as well as other leaders in Sovereign Grace. These charges are serious and they have been very grieving to read. These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.

I believe God is kindly disciplining me through this. I believe I have by the grace of God perceived a degree of my sin, and I have been grieved by my sin and its effects on others. I have had the opportunity to confess my sin to some of those affected in various ways by my sin. And I am so very grateful for their forgiveness. But I want to perceive and confess any and all sin I have committed. Although my experience of conviction has already started—and this is an evidence of God’s mercy—I’m sure there is more for me to perceive and acknowledge. Even with the charges I disagree with it has been beneficial to examine my soul and ask for the observation of others. And I am resolved to take responsibility for my sin and every way my leadership has been deficient, and this would include making any appropriate confessions, public or private. Most importantly I want to please God during this season of examination and evaluation.

So here is what I am going to do. I’ve asked to take a leave of absence in order to give time to considering these charges, examine my heart, and receive the appropriate help from others.

So- are we going to put people into a corner, and castigate them for not repenting, but when they DO repent, dismiss it because we assume they are not sincere, or their hand was forced?

No one has suggested that but the situation and the seriousness of the protracted offenses and refusal to acknowledge them and deal with them by Mahaney is marginalized, dare I say even more abuse heaped on those who have been abused, when we refer to his finally coming to some terms with what he has done as courage.

[Susan R] When was the last time anyone in IFB leadership stepped down because they were deemed unfit by others? Perhaps around the time the brontosaurus breathed its last?

Perhaps but it has no bearing on how the situation by Mahaney should be viewed and fortunately I am not an IFB so any assumptions I may be prejudice on their behalf (not by you but by other readers) can be laid to rest.

[Susan R] The lesson learned will be “Don’t bother repenting, no one is going to believe you anyway”. I think what we must do when someone repents is accept it at face value until there is evidence to indicate some kind of deceit or manipulation. I certainly want my confessions and apologies treated that way, and I think how we react to someone else’s efforts to repent says more about us than it does about them.

I agree that bad theology can and does lead to other problems in character, behavior, and even worse theology. The implications of Mr. Mahaney’s theology should be examined along with everything else.

We must stop holding men in such high regard that both we and they forget that they put on their pants one leg at a time. Perhaps then, when someone is overtaken in a fault, it wouldn’t seem like the sky is falling.

No one is chastising Mahaney for his current limited acknowledgment of his gross offenses. However, and again, it is merely more abuse to act as if he, Mahaney, is doing something out of great personal sacrifice or integrity to make a generic admission of his shame, again his hand was forced.

We must have a thorough knowledge of these things as a Teacher at large and as we discover their highly aggravated level, then we, too, have a biblical right to voice our concerns for someone who has both personally and by men whose judgment should now be called into question, been elevated as an acceptable model and teacher for Evangelical Christians.

If these charges are true, and it appears Mahaney is, at least in part, admitting to them, then a “temporary leave of absence” is far from in order but a much longer one that is on the same scale of a Pastor or Teacher at large being caught in adultery, theft and so on.

The literature fully documents spiritual tyranny of the worst kind. I find it hard knowing all of what went on and the plethora of pastoral/apostolic abuses to find a cause for admiring Mahaney. But then he wrote a couple of books that people liked and were “edified by” so, hey what’s the big deal, right?

Alex: I will look forward to your future series critiquing Desiring God. Hopefully, it will be more accurate and responsible than the critique you linked to in your post above (you included two links and described them as critiques, but in fact it’s the same critique posted in two places). The referenced critique seemed to me to twist and distort beyond recognition selected statements from the book. There is simply no resemblance between the Christian Hedonism straw man of the critique and the Christian Hedonism actually set out in Desiring God and Desiring God Ministries’ other writings.

Please correct me if I am wrong, Alex, but didn’t you urge caution and express concern about the views and allegations found on the IFB survivors page? But you take at face value those on the SGM survivors page?

[Greg Long] Please correct me if I am wrong, Alex, but didn’t you urge caution and express concern about the views and allegations found on the IFB survivors page? But you take at face value those on the SGM survivors page?

Greg,
I invite you to cite and quote a specific statement by me and I will answer to them in their context (and remember, context is always the key to proper interpretation and understanding of what is being said) in the mean time subjective guessing of what I may or may not have said is something to which I cannot answer. I await your citation and quotation of any of my comments on the matter upon which such concerns may be made clear.

Now, back to the OP and the documented offenses by CJ Mahaney and his subsequent stepping down for an undetermined period of time. Feel free to wade through the material, Greg, and contact as many of the offended parties and discover if indeed what has been published is true. I realize cognitive dissonance can occur with those we elevate in our own minds but due diligence is never really something we should excuse, no matter how painful the discoveries might be about those we have held in esteem.

No, no “elevation” here. I’m simply encouraged that some kind of step towards repentance seems to be taking place and wait to see the outcome without making predetermined judgments.

For those of you who are unable to due to whatever reasons, wade through the 600 pages of documents that were complied by Brent Brent Detwiler who was a long time SMG and can be found linked to at SMGSurvivors, there is an excellent summary at http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/ Coffee Trader-News & Views

It provides a very compressed but succinct account, again shocking.