Repent of homophobia?
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The homosexual movement is revolutionary movement. Their goals are clear. They want to force every person to approve of their lifestyle. They want our children, at an early age, to learn to accept their lifestyle and consider it for themselves. For them, speaking the truth in love, and declaring that homosexuality is wrong and something worthy of a crime. They do want our churches to be silenced if we continue to believe their lifestyle is a sin.
Sure, there are examples of Pastors and churches who have said and done foolish things. However, Al Mohler has sadly accommodated these revolutionaries by giving into part of their strategy which includes throwing out word “homophobia” at those who believe their lifestyle is a wrong choice. Yes, it is an intensely powerful influence on a person’s life but it still is a wrong choice.
Saying this is not a form of “homophobia” of which the church needs to repent and Al Mohler needs to be ashamed for issuing such a wrong accusation.
Sure, there are examples of Pastors and churches who have said and done foolish things. However, Al Mohler has sadly accommodated these revolutionaries by giving into part of their strategy which includes throwing out word “homophobia” at those who believe their lifestyle is a wrong choice. Yes, it is an intensely powerful influence on a person’s life but it still is a wrong choice.
Saying this is not a form of “homophobia” of which the church needs to repent and Al Mohler needs to be ashamed for issuing such a wrong accusation.
I agree with Mr. Dingess that Al Mohler’s choice of words is… unfortunate, but I think ignoring issues such as the physiological effects of certain chemicals on the sexual development of children is a problem. There have been many studies in the last 20 years on http://www.epa.gov/ace/ace3draft/draft_pdfs/ACE3PhthalatesReviewPackage…] phthalates , which are classified as endocrine disruptors. In a nutshell, phthalates are present in many products, most notably drinks packaged in plastic bottles. They are xenoestrogens, which means they mimic estrogen in the body. Hence, the feminization of boys, and early onset of puberty in girls. Now- doesn’t that explain alot?
On that note, I think we can safely say at this point that there are no environmental poisons that ‘cause’ adultery or thievery, but if a child at any stage of early development- in the womb, breastfeeding, and prepubescent, are consistently exposed to products containing phthalates, it is possible for those chemicals to influence their sexual development, and thus their gender identity. In that sense, one could say that gender confusion and by proxy homosexuality is not just a ‘simple choice’.
It doesn’t make the behavior any less sinful, but it does shed light on the ‘gender confusion’ issue, IMO.
I also agree with Bro. Joe on the agenda of the “homosexual movement”. In general, there isn’t a “mind your own business” attitude, but a “you WILL not only accept, you will approve of our lifestyle”.
On that note, I think we can safely say at this point that there are no environmental poisons that ‘cause’ adultery or thievery, but if a child at any stage of early development- in the womb, breastfeeding, and prepubescent, are consistently exposed to products containing phthalates, it is possible for those chemicals to influence their sexual development, and thus their gender identity. In that sense, one could say that gender confusion and by proxy homosexuality is not just a ‘simple choice’.
It doesn’t make the behavior any less sinful, but it does shed light on the ‘gender confusion’ issue, IMO.
I also agree with Bro. Joe on the agenda of the “homosexual movement”. In general, there isn’t a “mind your own business” attitude, but a “you WILL not only accept, you will approve of our lifestyle”.
I disagree with the use of the word “homophobic.” The word speaks of fearing or hating homosexuals. What Al Mohler seems to be describing is a failure to understand homosexuality. This can hardly be labeled “homophobia.” I don’t doubt at all that sexual brokenness is a result of the fall. But I still would not throw out the word “choice.” One’s actions are always a choice, unless that one is forced to act by outside restraint. The bigger question is “How is it that God can hold each of us accountable for how the fall has spiriutally affected us?”
I have good life-long friends who are gay. They don’t claim to be Christians, but as non-Christian people go they are “good people.” If I moved, these are the kind of friends who would help me move if I asked.
We eat dinner together every few weeks. They’ve even come to hear me preach. They know where I stand on their behavior and I’ve given the gospel to them multiple times. One of these friends said of me “hey guys, out of all of us (a group of 10 friends) Shayne loves us the most because he disagrees the most with what we do.”
I live in Washington DC which has a very large and powerful gay community. My direct supervisor is gay. About 15% of the people I work with are gay in an office of 120. I don’t want to toot my own horn here at all. That isn’t the point. God has placed me in contact with homosexuals almost every day.
There are many Christians who are so shocked by the sin of homosexuality that they freeze. They don’t know what to do with it. They are afraid of them because they somehow think they’re monsters. They may not say it out loud, but maybe deep inside they have a sense that the monsters aren’t quite human. This is sin. This is not like Jesus is to us. Jesus ate with sinners of all stripes. He sought out those sinners who were least socially acceptable and had table fellowship. Sadly, many Christians would be too paralyzed to follow this example of Jesus.
Pastor Joe, I would challenge you to actually read the other 200 articles Mohler has written on the subject before saying Dr. Mohler has anything to be ashamed about. I don’t think we need to cede a term such as homophobia to the culture. If we use it rightly as a “irrational fear” then I think the church has to repent of it. The questions of what is a rational and irrational fear is where the real debate happens.
We eat dinner together every few weeks. They’ve even come to hear me preach. They know where I stand on their behavior and I’ve given the gospel to them multiple times. One of these friends said of me “hey guys, out of all of us (a group of 10 friends) Shayne loves us the most because he disagrees the most with what we do.”
I live in Washington DC which has a very large and powerful gay community. My direct supervisor is gay. About 15% of the people I work with are gay in an office of 120. I don’t want to toot my own horn here at all. That isn’t the point. God has placed me in contact with homosexuals almost every day.
There are many Christians who are so shocked by the sin of homosexuality that they freeze. They don’t know what to do with it. They are afraid of them because they somehow think they’re monsters. They may not say it out loud, but maybe deep inside they have a sense that the monsters aren’t quite human. This is sin. This is not like Jesus is to us. Jesus ate with sinners of all stripes. He sought out those sinners who were least socially acceptable and had table fellowship. Sadly, many Christians would be too paralyzed to follow this example of Jesus.
Pastor Joe, I would challenge you to actually read the other 200 articles Mohler has written on the subject before saying Dr. Mohler has anything to be ashamed about. I don’t think we need to cede a term such as homophobia to the culture. If we use it rightly as a “irrational fear” then I think the church has to repent of it. The questions of what is a rational and irrational fear is where the real debate happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gi7TOMjr3Y
Please watch this before assuming you know how clear Dr. Mohler was or not.
Homosexuality is a choice in that it is a sin, but it is a complicated choice.
Please watch this before assuming you know how clear Dr. Mohler was or not.
Homosexuality is a choice in that it is a sin, but it is a complicated choice.
I think that we need very clear thinking on this issue. Too much is knee-jerk reaction and personal discomfort-driven verbiage.
First, Dr. Mohler is correct in saying that calling it a choice is oversimplifying. We wouldn’t do that with alcoholism, or heroin addiction. Those extreme examples from a different area of life ought to remind us that sin has a great power to become a habit for us — particularly if it speaks to some deep-felt need we feel is met by the sin (a surface-level perception, of course).
The choice to commit a sin on any particular occasion is a choice. The fact that you struggle with a particular sin is NOT a simple choice. It is a battle to be fought - in some cases for a lifetime.
I’m not sure that homophobia is the reason why people have simply preferred to call it a mere choice. But I’m sure that homophobia exists within the church. And it prevents us from doing part of Christ’s work to a demographic that desperately needs Him. We cannot hate our own mission field.
First, Dr. Mohler is correct in saying that calling it a choice is oversimplifying. We wouldn’t do that with alcoholism, or heroin addiction. Those extreme examples from a different area of life ought to remind us that sin has a great power to become a habit for us — particularly if it speaks to some deep-felt need we feel is met by the sin (a surface-level perception, of course).
The choice to commit a sin on any particular occasion is a choice. The fact that you struggle with a particular sin is NOT a simple choice. It is a battle to be fought - in some cases for a lifetime.
I’m not sure that homophobia is the reason why people have simply preferred to call it a mere choice. But I’m sure that homophobia exists within the church. And it prevents us from doing part of Christ’s work to a demographic that desperately needs Him. We cannot hate our own mission field.
Dittos to Shaymus. I find myself in a similar situation in my place of work and will admit that there was a time that I had an irrational fear of homosexuals but have had to overcome that fear in order to present the Gospel of Grace to them that can deliver them from their sin. I think that we will have to admit that there are some who publicly mock this sin with language that is hurtful and exhibit so much disdain that it is often viewed as hatred and fear. In addition, the zeal with which some homosexuals promote their lifestyle is very similar to the zeal demonstrated in promoting other sins such as immorality and intentional illegitimacy.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
We may not like the term “homophobia” but by adding “certain form” Mohler said what needs to be said. You may wish to call it something else. There is a homosexual agenda which is of great concern and an irrational fear of homosexuals which often prevents gospel witness. When you work and live among homosexuals you need to ask yourself if you avoid contact with them or avoid witness to them because of their identity. They need the gospel. They need Christians who will love them “just as they are.” You can’t and don’t need to approve of their lifestyle. You need to love them because Christ does and died for them and us “while we were sinners.”
It is important for us to continually police ourselves to the rule of Scripture. Al Mohler did this to evangelicalism as a whole, and to Southern Baptists in particular. Some individuals object because the charge does not apply to them or their church. They have been preaching the truth in love for decades. But we must admit that many churches, some to which I have belonged, have preached homosexuality as the worst of sins, nearly beyond God’s grace. Growing up, I remember sermons by pastors and evangelists that talked of homosexuals (the people) in disdain and disgust. There was no invitation for one struggling with that worst of sins. Rather, there was ranting and raving about how the homosexuals are taking over the schools and abusing our children. The preaching was political rather than evangelical. It fretted of society’s doom rather than calling to personal salvation. In short, it was homophobic (not evangelistic), and something to repent of. I suppose his wording was not perfect, but the emphasis and main point was absolutely necessary.
Well put, Dr. Mohler.
Well put, Dr. Mohler.
As wrong as the church has been in how it treated homosexuals in the past, in coming to terms with homosexual behavior we need to be clear that it has not been proven that there is a homosexual orientation that one is born with. I am willing to concede with homosexuals I have talked with that they feel that way (that they were born w/ a homosexual orientation) since from an early age in life they never had opposite attraction. But, in a recent talk with a counselor at Harvest USA (Philadelphia) I was told that it is absolutely not true that it has been proven as a scientific fact that people are born with a homosexual orientation. When a boy at the age of 8 realizes that he isn’t attracted to girls, how does that prove that he was “born that way”? Is it possible that in his 8 years, he was exposed to things that affected him in such a way to not have opposite-sex attraction? Again, I’m not going to argue with a homosexual about this. If he feels he was born gay, I’ll concede that to him and then explain that the fall has affected us in many ways, and sexual brokenness is one way, but the homosexual activity is still sin. So my first problem with ‘homosexual orientation’ is that it has not been proven, though there is no point arguing with a homsoexual about it.
My second problem is that if there is such a thing as a homosexual orientation, we should not go around pronouncing that all those involved in homosexual activity do so because they have such an orientation. There are other reasons some may be involved in homosexual activity (sexual experimentation, rebelling against expectations).
My second problem is that if there is such a thing as a homosexual orientation, we should not go around pronouncing that all those involved in homosexual activity do so because they have such an orientation. There are other reasons some may be involved in homosexual activity (sexual experimentation, rebelling against expectations).
I don’t think we should necessarily worry about 8 year old boys who think girls have cooties. I do believe that ‘the church’ has been naively dismissing the idea of good Christian kids getting involved in sexual perversion, and so preoccupied with preventing fornication that they do really stupid things, like not properly supervising all boy or all girl activities. But many a sexual experiment has taken place with kids of the same gender because it “didn’t count” to engage in sexual conduct with another girl/boy.
As I have said before, so say I now again- we need to rethink how we handle overnights and youth camp. My kids simply do not attend overnight activities or go to camp because there is a dearth of adults who take this issue seriously, and half the time the supervision is provided by young people who were ‘kids’ last week. We aren’t putting our kids under the supervision of people who have the discernment of a pistachio, nor do we allow our children to be someone’s spiritual guinea pig.
It’s another case IMO of talking about a problem in society as if it is ‘out there’ somewhere and doesn’t affect Us, but I believe it is far too prevalent in the church, in spite of all the spitting and pew jumping.
As I have said before, so say I now again- we need to rethink how we handle overnights and youth camp. My kids simply do not attend overnight activities or go to camp because there is a dearth of adults who take this issue seriously, and half the time the supervision is provided by young people who were ‘kids’ last week. We aren’t putting our kids under the supervision of people who have the discernment of a pistachio, nor do we allow our children to be someone’s spiritual guinea pig.
It’s another case IMO of talking about a problem in society as if it is ‘out there’ somewhere and doesn’t affect Us, but I believe it is far too prevalent in the church, in spite of all the spitting and pew jumping.
Like you some of you, I interact with homosexuals on a pretty regular basis. When a homosexual visits our church, that person is treated like everyone else - a person we care about who is in need of God’s truth. Homosexuals and lesbians cut my hear and serve me meals at area restaurants and I am always kind. I graduated from a Christian college that has a lot of gay graduates. I am also trying to help those teens who are pressured by their high school gay clubs to practice homosexuality. I have read many of Mohler’s articles on homosexuality and I do appreciate them. I stand my by my disappointment with his current choice of words and other men of integrity also share the same concerns.
One of the great problems with the homosexual community is that there is zero tolerance of a minister calling homosexuality a sin as he expounds the Word of God. I have frequently taught that it is a “complicated choice” in my teachings and this revolutionary group still labels me and other ministers in our State “homophobes.”
Right now, a bunch of ministers and myself are trying to convince our State Senators that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples is wrong. We have been more than kind in stating our concerns and I cannot begin to tell you the stuff that has been said to us. One Pastor from the Bonx who happens to be a Democrat State Senator is having his life repeatedly threatened because he believes homosexuality is a “complicated choice” that is wrong and has announced that he will not vote “yes” for same sex marriage. They have targeted him as one of those church “homophobes” who needs to die.
For these reasons and more, I believe Mohler’s words were ridiculous.
So, just be aware that there is a revolutionary movement out there who will reject all of the church’ss attempts to be sensitive in addressing the issue and will not settle for anything but full acceptance of their lifestyle. In these instances, church leaders will not help one bit by talking like Mohler. Just continue to speak the truth in love
One of the great problems with the homosexual community is that there is zero tolerance of a minister calling homosexuality a sin as he expounds the Word of God. I have frequently taught that it is a “complicated choice” in my teachings and this revolutionary group still labels me and other ministers in our State “homophobes.”
Right now, a bunch of ministers and myself are trying to convince our State Senators that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples is wrong. We have been more than kind in stating our concerns and I cannot begin to tell you the stuff that has been said to us. One Pastor from the Bonx who happens to be a Democrat State Senator is having his life repeatedly threatened because he believes homosexuality is a “complicated choice” that is wrong and has announced that he will not vote “yes” for same sex marriage. They have targeted him as one of those church “homophobes” who needs to die.
For these reasons and more, I believe Mohler’s words were ridiculous.
So, just be aware that there is a revolutionary movement out there who will reject all of the church’ss attempts to be sensitive in addressing the issue and will not settle for anything but full acceptance of their lifestyle. In these instances, church leaders will not help one bit by talking like Mohler. Just continue to speak the truth in love
Pastor Joe,
I respect your fight to defend marriage as one man and one woman. However, I’m still concerned with why you’re concerned with Dr. Mohler’s language.
It seems that you’re making the following argument:
P1: Gay groups use the term “homophobia” carelessly to castigate the biblical view of homosexuality as a sin.
P2: These same gay groups are capable of threatening the lives of lawmakers.
P3: Al Mohler told us we shouldn’t be homophobes (of a certain kind).
Therefore Dr. Mohler seems to be indicating that the gay groups in P1 have a point.
I don’t see the logical dots connecting here at all. I think Dr. Mohler is being wise here by using the term “homophobe” in a limited and defined way. (Have you watched the video BTW?) The great thing about speaking the truth is that it follows God’s agenda. We don’t really have to worry that we’re falling into the hands of gay groups when we call each other out for true homophobia. I think Mohler was absolutely clear in what he said, while the article listed above doesn’t quite get the tone and argument of Dr. Mohler quite right. For too long, Christian groups in Washington (I have worked among them, gone to the meetings ect.) tend to use the world’s strategies and fight evil using the world’s methods. I don’t think we have to stoop to the level of allowing the misappropriation of terms like homophobia. A word like that is given meaning by it’s use. If Dr. Mohler defines it by its true meaning, I don’t see how he’s playing into anyone’s hands. Even if he is, it doesn’t matter so much as the truth of scripture. Satan will always be a twister of the truth. It’s going to happen. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be careful, but we shouldn’t shrink from condemning self-righteous behavior among Christians (as in “ew, gross, I thank thee Father, that I’m not a sinner like that”).
I respect your fight to defend marriage as one man and one woman. However, I’m still concerned with why you’re concerned with Dr. Mohler’s language.
It seems that you’re making the following argument:
P1: Gay groups use the term “homophobia” carelessly to castigate the biblical view of homosexuality as a sin.
P2: These same gay groups are capable of threatening the lives of lawmakers.
P3: Al Mohler told us we shouldn’t be homophobes (of a certain kind).
Therefore Dr. Mohler seems to be indicating that the gay groups in P1 have a point.
I don’t see the logical dots connecting here at all. I think Dr. Mohler is being wise here by using the term “homophobe” in a limited and defined way. (Have you watched the video BTW?) The great thing about speaking the truth is that it follows God’s agenda. We don’t really have to worry that we’re falling into the hands of gay groups when we call each other out for true homophobia. I think Mohler was absolutely clear in what he said, while the article listed above doesn’t quite get the tone and argument of Dr. Mohler quite right. For too long, Christian groups in Washington (I have worked among them, gone to the meetings ect.) tend to use the world’s strategies and fight evil using the world’s methods. I don’t think we have to stoop to the level of allowing the misappropriation of terms like homophobia. A word like that is given meaning by it’s use. If Dr. Mohler defines it by its true meaning, I don’t see how he’s playing into anyone’s hands. Even if he is, it doesn’t matter so much as the truth of scripture. Satan will always be a twister of the truth. It’s going to happen. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be careful, but we shouldn’t shrink from condemning self-righteous behavior among Christians (as in “ew, gross, I thank thee Father, that I’m not a sinner like that”).
Romans 1:
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Is God Homophobic? Just what does this say about homosexuality and homosexual acts?
Bob,
Is God homophobic? He doesn’t irrationally fear anything because, well He’s God. This should be obvious. That doesn’t mean we don’t fear things irrationally, including homosexuals. If we’re going to start listing sins and bolding parts of verses, here’s another one.
[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)
In this list, we have Paul lumping together all kinds of sinners, both “respectable” sins and not, and two things are true of each one. 1) They don’t inherit the kingdom of God and 2) they were saved and are now in Christ.
We shouldn’t relate to sinners on the basis of how bad their sin is compared to ours. In some ways, it is true that homosexual acts are somehow worse than other sins (in their effect and extent of rebellion). But before God, no one is beyond His great grace. So we should relate to sinners in this light. First, we should be aware of our own sin as much (if not more) than the sins of others. That we were saved from horrible sin by Christ is humbling. And it is with that humility that we should love homosexuals as Christ first loved us.
Is God homophobic? He doesn’t irrationally fear anything because, well He’s God. This should be obvious. That doesn’t mean we don’t fear things irrationally, including homosexuals. If we’re going to start listing sins and bolding parts of verses, here’s another one.
[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)
In this list, we have Paul lumping together all kinds of sinners, both “respectable” sins and not, and two things are true of each one. 1) They don’t inherit the kingdom of God and 2) they were saved and are now in Christ.
We shouldn’t relate to sinners on the basis of how bad their sin is compared to ours. In some ways, it is true that homosexual acts are somehow worse than other sins (in their effect and extent of rebellion). But before God, no one is beyond His great grace. So we should relate to sinners in this light. First, we should be aware of our own sin as much (if not more) than the sins of others. That we were saved from horrible sin by Christ is humbling. And it is with that humility that we should love homosexuals as Christ first loved us.
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