Tina Anderson, Chuck Phelps Take Stand in Willis Trial

[Greg Linscott]

I guess what you’re missing is the whole conclusion of the trial testimony itself.

I’m not sure what it is you think I am missing. You are saying then, Mrs. Moody, that Phelps is lying when he says that he placed calls? I am not asking whether or not he filed an official report. That is a different matter.

I do think that your last paragraph is the biggest issue in regards to Phelps’ management of the situation. Reports I recall seeing do affirm that he placed calls to Concord PD, and that they in fact did begin to pursue the matter before it was eventually dropped because they could not locate the victim. Was it concluded otherwise in court?

I apologize if I offended Greg. What I meant was your question focused on Chuck alone and what he did and did the police bear more blame for the resolution of this case many years ago. Chuck’s less than aggressive pursuit of action alone is not the only factor to judge police action/lack of action. I meant to say that the entirety of testimony—especially Chris Leaf’s adds to the big picture for the decision of the detective to table the investigation.

I’m not in any way shape or form attempting to even suggest that Chuck is lying about making a call. I’m trying to be very specific with my words—only focusing on what was given as testimony. I do not personally doubt that he made a call, but what I am trying to add here to the discussion is not my personal opinion. At least I *think* I’m mostly accomplishing that. I’m trying to focus on testimony because I was there at the trial.

Does that make sense? I hope that is understandable. Communicating with gaps in responses via written response creates challenges. I think this would sound different if we were in a big room together.

[Leah Hayes] LJ Moody, I appreciate your willingness to post and bring clarification to the testimony. Thank you for taking time to do so.

Thanks, Leah. I am only doing so because so many of the posts I have read did not reflect evidence or testimony at trial. I thought it might be helpful for consideration.

Thanks for clarifying…I appreciate it, especially in charged waters like this.

I originally was thinking of the Willis trial when I wrote #1. Back in the very beginning, all I knew was what was being passed around via the rumor chain, so that was the first thing that I thought of; I believe I came out early when this hit SI and said that I felt like we needed actual, observable, verifiable facts to properly discuss the matter. If I could go back now and override all other mods, I think the site should have linked to news reports and then the trial info, but left the comments closed to avoid against speculation and rumormongering…but even that poses problems. This is the biggest IFB story in arguably five/six years and we don’t allow comments? On a discussion board?

After a moment’s reflection, though, I wanted propose other real life situations that I’ve run across, so I then added #2 and #3. So they are not related to Willis’ trial at all.

Laurie, It is very helpful to have someone share the testimony that was given at trial. I have heard that someone is making an effort to get a full transcript of the trial and to post that online. That would be helpful for everyone to see.

I also appreciate the tone and manner in which you have communicated. Some have mentioned those who are over the top and I don’t think anyone could rightly accuse you of doing that here.

A pastor in the service of God, caring for the bride of Christ has a greater responsibility to care for the flock beyond the bare minimums that the law requires. It would seem that Phelps did not meet the bare minimum requirement as he knew that more than a phone call was required—that in fact a written report was required under the law. I find that more than a little disturbing that he did not follow through.

there is at least one other reason that came out in discovery but did not end up getting made public at trial. It could have been a part of a rebuttal witness testimony but was deemed not needed for the case by the prosecution. Two witnesses that confronted Chuck Phelps after the church discipline/confession/compassion session both said they were told that Tina was young and would be able to get over it. Ernie had a family that needed to be protected.

If the abovue quote from LJ Moody is correct, this is wicked and shameful. I think this is another question for Chuck Phelps to answer directly. Those who know him, should ask him. Mrs. Moody, thank you again for giving us a first hand account of the trial. You are right, Chuck Phelps should specifically seek Tina’s forgiveness. There are plenty of ways to reach out to her.

Greg,

The above quote quote from Mrs. Moody may not mean cover-up. That is not what I am implying. But it shows a deep problem in judgment. If the logic was that “Ernie had a family that needed to be protected” we have a serious problem. That goes against so much Biblical teaching that is obvious to us all.

Another thing that the trial has pointed out to me. There is absolutely no justification in allowing Willis to walk freely among the church after this incident. If it is true that he accompanied children on field trips as a criminal is inexcusable. I hope that was not accurate and that he did not. Either way, sex offeneder who attend need to be watched and monitored.

Laurie,

I have not been able to determine clearly who was behind the effort to have Chuck Phelps’ notes excluded from the trial on the basis of privilege. Was it the defense or was it CLA?

[Dave Doran] Laurie,

I have not been able to determine clearly who was behind the effort to have Chuck Phelps’ notes excluded from the trial on the basis of privilege. Was it the defense or was it CLA?

I’m wondering that as well.

Looking forward to the transcripts coming out .. (though the question of the notes being excluded probably wouldn’t be in that would it?) ..

On the witness stand, Chuck did testify to one call. The Concord Police do not have a record of the call. However, at the time (and still to this day), a call is not enough to report. A written report is required. Chuck said he was told papers for him to fill out would be sent but he did not get them. By his testimony he knew he was supposed to fill out a written report and he did not do it. Concord Police also testified that a written report was never made.

That is helpful information. In some states, all that is required is a phone call, but even ‘just a phone call’ entails answering detailed questions, such as the name, address, and age of the victim, any information you have about the abuser, and your own contact information (although I think most states accept anonymous reports).

But if in accordance with the reporting requirements at the time, the police tell you that a written report is also required, and you fail to pursue the matter because you did not receive said paperwork… well, that sounds rather negligent, doesn’t it? I mean, here you are, the pastor of a church, and you can’t remember to file a written police report about an adult having sex with an underage girl? We aren’t talking about forgetting to pay a parking ticket, KWIM?

All of the information I’ve heard heretofore was that Pastor Phelps made a proper report and that the police never followed up. With Tina being below the age of consent, the PD should have followed up regardless, so it sounds like a game of hot potato, with a young girl being tossed to and fro, and nary a responsible, sensible, caring adult to be found.

[Greg Linscott] I do think that your last paragraph is the biggest issue in regards to Phelps’ management of the situation. Reports I recall seeing do affirm that he placed calls to Concord PD, and that they in fact did begin to pursue the matter before it was eventually dropped because they could not locate the victim. Was it concluded otherwise in court?

Sorry! I missed this last part. The testimony given by Det. Gagnon said he was following up on a referral from DCYF, which is why he called Chris Leaf (Tina’s mom) and Chuck Phelps. He did not state Chuck made the call or dispute it. As I understood the testimony, Chuck said he made a call, which was not disputed. There is no record of a call but it is not disputed. Does that make sense? I’m trying to stick only to what was said in court. Gagnon said that Chuck Phelps did not return his call. I will have to defer to the transcript for how many times Gagnon said he attempted to call Chuck. i think I remember this question being asked, but I am not sure.

The detective said the matter was dropped because he could not locate the victim. Chuck and Chris were both asked if they notified police that Tina would be moved to another state during their testimony. Chuck said no (paraphrased—it was a longer answer), and Chris gave a non-answer “they didn’t ask.”

[Dave Doran] Laurie,
I have not been able to determine clearly who was behind the effort to have Chuck Phelps’ notes excluded from the trial on the basis of privilege. Was it the defense or was it CLA?

Dave,
I’m not entirely sure who was in the chambers with the judge when this was addressed. I will give you my understanding based on what I saw/heard in the courtroom.

David Gibbs III was there with his son (guessing 10/11/12 years old). Gibbs talked with Phelps during a couple of the breaks while Phelps was still on the stand. Based on his presence in the courtroom until Phelps was done testifying and what I overheard at one point, I believe Gibbs was acting as Phelps’ attorney. I don’t know if that was on his own—or under the auspices of the CLA.

Chuck said on the stand that Brian Fuller released his notes to the Concord Police without his permission. He emphasized this point with some strength. He did not want his notes to be public for the trial. When the judge came back from considering everything and made his ruling, he spoke directly to Chuck on the stand and said something along the lines of: I know you were concerned about saying what was in your notes. The court is compelling you to answer the questions from the court.

I got the impression that Gibbs spoke on his behalf to say his notes should be privileged, simply because he was clearly there to protect Phelps’ interest/concerns, but I am not at all sure that is the case. The only one I know to ask is Wayne Coull (prosecutor) and I am not sure I have standing to even ask that.

The defense did not want Chuck’s notes to be released.

The basic parts of the ruling were that privilege was ignored when Phelps sent the notes to Fuller and also Chuck’s website (drchuckphelps.com) had released information contained within the notes. The website was a matter of lengthy discussion during that part of the hearing. The jury was out of the room for that part until the ruling was made by the judge.

The judge will be issuing that ruling in writing and I assume it will be a part of the public record for the case. Nothing has been sealed.

I don’t know if this answer helps or not. I’m not trying to be indirect, but I know my initial answer would have been — both tried to keep the notes out. But as I thought about it, that was based on courtroom impressions and what the judge said during his ruling. I really don’t know who argued what outside the courtroom. There were several hearings outside the presence of the jury but in the courtroom and several more outside the courtroom altogether.

Laurie Moody

Laurie,

Thank you for that explanation. It makes sense. I certainly figured, given their contents, that the defense would want to have the notes excluded. The live feed from WMUR said that it was Phelps’ lawyer, but that seemed odd to me in that Gibbs was not formally involved in the trial (but I’ll have to confess that its apparent oddity may be only because of my ignorance regarding legal wranglings). That the judge had conversations about it with Chuck Phelps suggests that the concern was coming from his corner.

In regard to the conversation above about phone calls to the police, the WMUR live feed from the court contains this on the third day (while Officer Gagnon is being cross-examined by the defense):

Brooksley Belanger on cross examination of former officer Gagnon. One question: Did Phelps talk with Lt. Cross? Yes. Did Phelps report to DCYF? yes. no further questions.

Although it doesn’t address the issue of whether a police report was filed, this does seem to nail down the question of whether he talked to the police and DCYF (although the latter doesn’t seem in dispute).

[Susan R] But if in accordance with the reporting requirements at the time, the police tell you that a written report is also required, and you fail to pursue the matter because you did not receive said paperwork… well, that sounds rather negligent, doesn’t it? I mean, here you are, the pastor of a church, and you can’t remember to file a written police report about an adult having sex with an underage girl? We aren’t talking about forgetting to pay a parking ticket, KWIM?

I’m really trying to avoid giving opinion here. I think it is probably obvious that I must have felt strongly enough about supporting Tina to drive 16 hours to NH to be there for/with her at the trial. I babysat her—I knew her from the time she was just a little thing—2 or 3 years old. I said on Bob Bixby’s blog that there were other things I could have said that revealed Chris Leaf’s mindset and way of doing things, but I just didn’t think it would be appropriate to say more than I did. Now that everything is over, I can say that Sue Cappucci (a witness during the trial) was the one that called to tell me about the church discipline/confession/compassion session the night it took place. She knew of my care for both Tina and Tom. After Tina spoke with the police last spring, she, Tom and I reconnected through facebook. Everything Tina told me is exactly what Sue told me from both the 1997 church incident, what her sister Sarah told her, what she said to Chuck and Linda afterwards, their responses, and what Tina wrote in an essay that Sue graded in 1998 once Tina returned to NH. My own experiences at Trinity Baptist Concord, while a member led me to find everything within the full realm of believability. Also, I grew up in a Hyles’ style IFB church. Nothing that was done or said as a part of this whole situation surprised me. I had witnessed other public church discipline/confession/compassion meetings exactly like the one Tina described and others gave testimony about at Trinity while a member and at every other church I attended within fundamentalism.

I had always heard such services referred to as church discipline. Other witnesses did as well, but one of them said he thought of it as a “confession” session because no one was voted off church membership during that meeting. On the witness stand, Chuck referred to it as a chance to show compassion—neither discipline or confession. Given that the note Tina was helped to write by a church leader at the time, included terms such as asking forgiveness from God and the church, I don’t think anyone really believed that the purpose of the meeting was to offer compassion since a child was obviously going to be born.

I did have that in my notes about Lt. Cross, but didn’t mention it here because I didn’t know who it was. I did not remember that name as coming from Chuck’s notes. I just want to reiterate that I’m trying to stay focused only on what I remember from court. My niece is transcribing her notes—probably 20 handwritten pages. I have some notes too. My main purpose in being there was to give physical/emotional/spiritual support to Tina. It was easier to leave most of the note taking to others.

Leah, you asked about the transcript. Sue Cappucci plans to get a copy as soon as they are available. I will scan them and publish them online. Even though tone cannot be discernible from the written transcript, it is still the best record of what was said in the courtroom.

There was a very long interview recording played during the trial—the defense fought its admission very strongly. That was the recording of the interview between Det. DeAngelis and Ernie Willis when he was first called in for questioning in 2010. I do not know if the recording will be transcribed for the record or not (in the transcripts).

If it is possible to get an audio recording, it might be worth it for some of you. Then you can try to ascertain tone.