Tina Anderson, Chuck Phelps Take Stand in Willis Trial

Leah,
I agree. My concern has been with her from the beginning. I have always been disturbed that Ernie was treated with kid gloves and she was treated so much more harshly. Of course, as I said above, there are so many things about this that bother me.

[Rev Karl] With respect, humility, and all due deference to those Godly ones who have expressed some variation of the the thought “I’m glad this is over,” really, it’s not.

This is not going to be over until the life and ministry of Dr. Phelps has been completely destroyed by the those who have picked up this cause and championed it in public.

This will not be over until every church and/or organization that has ever had anything to do with Dr. Phelps has been completely discredited in the eyes of “the World”.

This will not be over until every individual person who has ever had anything to do with Dr. Phelps or any church, school or organization he has ever been associated with has been beaten into submission (figuratively or literally) to the will of the current society.

This is not now, nor has it ever been, solely about justice for Tina Anderson. This is just the first necessary step to destroy Dr. Phelps, what he believes in, what he stands for, and anyone who has ever stood with him.

This is an attempt to destroy the testimony of Jesus Christ, and anyone who believes in the literal, Gospel (only) centered Biblical faith.

This isn’t over. This is just beginning.

And THIS is the mentality that got the IFB where it is today. It is THIS mentality that rationalizes covering crime as if God needs us to protect His reputation and that of His institutions. It is THIS mentality that drives rational people who have compassion for victims of authoritarianism wrapped in the robes of fundamentalist piety to abandon the IFB by the droves.

My goodness….I haven’t seen as much drama as was in that post since I taught junior high.

I guess what was in my head and in my heart did not make it out through my fingers. If you will, allow me to say this in another way.

My point is this:

1. I would be shocked to my core if this is the last we hear of this issue. If no other news organization pursues it, 20/20 will almost certainly pursue a follow-on report.
   
2. Also, if you have watched the interviews with Tina Anderson and those who have been supporting her throughout this case, it has been stated “in so many words” that one of the goals is for Dr. Phelps to be held accountable for his actions. If I understand correctly, that was not a function of the most recent court case.
   My comments have nothing to do with any IFB leader or church member supporting Dr. Phelps, or not. I am not hear to say that he was right or wrong in anything he has done. Neither is my intent to minimize the wicked things experienced by Tina Anderson (now confirmed in a court of law). I am not speaking to those topics.
   
   My comments have everything to do with the fact that all of IFB has been portrayed with the same broad brush, with terms that are at least derogatory, and IMHO dangerous. (The term “cult” comes to mind)
   
   I do want to support the comments that have been made that this has served to help prepare us for the possibility of something like this occuring in our own congregations.
   
   All I am trying to say is that those who have recently put this into the public arena have said in so many words that they are not friends of independent fundamental Baptists. They have portrayed IFB as a cult that is a danger to our current society. Really, after listening to those who were interviewed, and those who did the interviewing, will *anyone* be surprised if/when we hear about this issue again?

[Dan Burrell] And THIS is the mentality that got the IFB where it is today. It is THIS mentality that rationalizes covering crime as if God needs us to protect His reputation and that of His institutions. It is THIS mentality that drives rational people who have compassion for victims of authoritarianism wrapped in the robes of fundamentalist piety to abandon the IFB by the droves.

Brother Dan,

If that is what you took away from my comments, then I REALLY failed in my attempt to communicate. And for that, I truly apologize.

Covering a crime - any crime - is wrong, and has negative ramifications for the congregation, the ministry of the church, and the testimony of Christ. That is not something I advocate, and it is truly not what I intended to convey in my comments.

I thank God that He has led me to a church where John 13:35 is the unspoken theme verse. As it happens, the church is an independent Baptist church which holds to the fundamental doctrines of the Bible. But people in our community know we are His followers because we have love one for another. I have spoken to this issue on this website in the past, and (ironically) you and I are in complete agreement on this point of your response.

My comments were specifically in reference to the national news organizations which have taken up this story, and the organizations out there seeking to “rescue” people from the IFB “cult”. I think it would be naive of me to think that we will not hear more on this specific case from these organizations in the future.

Again, let me apologize to you for not clearly expressing what was in my mind and my heart, I will try do better in the future.

Karl,

Thanks for the clarification. Your response was very balanced and helped me understand where you were coming from in relation to the comments you made. While I agree with your concern about the broad brush with which IFB churches were painted, I think the added scrutiny is a good thing.

There was a time in our culture when the Minister in a community was looked up to as a man of unimpeachable character. A man who could be trusted to do right (not just legally, but morally also) every time he was faced with a decision. He was considered a man of honesty, morality, ethics, and of unquestioned stewardship. For many reasons, that pristine image of yester-year’s Minister has completely vanished from the minds of our current society.

This is partly due to the fact that Minsters of the past were regarded too highly by their parishoners/communities. It is also due to Ministers who abused their trusted positions and were found guilty of moral or fidutiary (sp?)(don’t have spell-check on my phone) sins. It is also furthered by those modern day Tele-Evangelists who preach and practice a Prosperiety Gospel (making religion into a get-rich-quick-scheme).

While I personally believe that Pastor Phelps did not intentionally do anything malicious, I also believe that he had a duty to do more than he did. I think that our communities should expect Ministers to do more than just the legal minimum. As many say…Pastor Phelps has said on his web-site that things would be done differently now…I can only say, “I hope so.”

Even though the verdict is in, there are still many facts about this situation that we don’t know. We should welcome the opportunity to constantly conform ourselves into the image of Christ. Sometimes those opportunities are painful, but still needed.

Accountability does NOT equal persecution

Phelps to this day, says that it was consensual –even after the police, the prosecutors office and a jury of eight men and four women have reviewed the testimony and all evidence come to the conclusion that Ernie did rape Tina—twice. Why is it unreasonable for people to question the judgment of a pastor who seems to lack sound judgement? When the wolves are eating the sheep alive and the shepherd sides with the wolf and blames the sheep for its wounds, why is it not reasonable to question whether the shepherd should keep his position?

I think the concern about the motives of the IFB Cult Survivors is misplaced and ill thought out. Let me explain what I mean. First God is sovereign—period. The Scripture is clear that when dealing with Israel, He used both righteous believers and unquestionably heathen people to call His people to repentance and to bring judgement into their lives. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Isn’t Romans 8:28 true in this case or is it not part of the “all things” ?

And for the record, I think most of the people in the IFB Survivors group are believes. They are part of the body of Christ and as important as any other part of the body of Christ. 1Co 12:23 “And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.” What part of the body are they? Maybe they are part of the pain system which every normal healthy body has which screams and cries out when part of the body is hurt? Tina certainly was hurt and this was the part of the body of Christ that called out for her help and healing. And Ernie and Phelps? Well they called out for him to be held accountable for their sin in this whole thing. Is is not just and loving to let people go on in their sin but to call them to repentance.

Justice would not have been served with regard to Ernie being held accountable for raping a child if it had not been for this group. It is always right to hold people accountable for their sin. Had it been left to Phelps, Ernie would not have faced trail. Phelps did do the minimum and report that sex between the two had occurred, but he also added commentary when reporting that it was consensual.

When Phelps had the church discipline session, it is reported by several witnesses that he stated that the two incidents were not related. Let’s not go all Bill Clinton here and debate what the meaning of “is” is. To a normal person with a normal command of the English language, such a statement would lead the average person to believe that Ernie “strayed from his marriage vows” with someone other than Tina and that Tina was pregnant with someone other Ernie. The statement that the two incidents are unrelated is a lie–plain and simple it is a lie. If Phelps said that in the church discipline service as widely reported, he lied to his entire congregation and made things to appear other than they really were. What do you think about a pastor who lies in such a serious occasion such as a church discipline service? Do you no think he should be held accountable for lying to his people?

In the trial, Phelps sought to have his notes from several years ago not admitted in to evidence. Phelps also stated several times on his web page and in court that Tina lied to him, but Ernie always told the truth. His testimony sought to give credibility to Ernie and to remove it from Tina. Think about that for a moment. Ernie stated in his recent admission of guilt that he had sex one time with Tina, but no more occasions happened. Tina stated that it happened twice. When Phelps’ notes were admitted into evidence, they stated and Phelps testified that Ernie admitted to two occasions of sex unlike that “truthful Ernie” and exactly like what “liar Tina” said. Phelps sees himself and Ernie as a victim. He saw Tina 15 years ago and now as a liar. He recently restated that position in court under oath. His notes also state that Ernie admitted to Phelps that he was the aggressor and imitator of the sex both times. Think about that for a moment. Phelps testified under oath that he knew Ernie was the aggressor and imitator of sex with a child but Phelps has offered more sympathy and support for the adult man than the sexually violated child. Doesn’t that bother any of you as a pastor, a man, a father, a husband, a regular person who cares about people and wants to show them the love of Jesus? Doesn’t that bother you at all?

I can tell you that if I was a 15 year old girl who had a horrible mother who had allowed me to be abused by my step father—who went to jail for abusing her by the way, and I had a pastor read a passage about being thankful we didn’t live in Old Testament days and that I ought to be glad they weren’t going to stone me to death—I think I would be scared out of my mine and go into survival mode and try to say or do most anything to save my neck.

“Truthful Ernie” did not come forward to confess his sin when he found out “liar Tina” was pregnant. He let her break the news. He really wasn’t all that truthful or forth coming was he? He left it to the child he violated to break the hard news. Ernie did not view Tina as an adult with whom he was having an affair. His testimony last week in court stated that he took Tina out for her 16th birthday because he knew that was a big deal to a kid. He viewed himself as an adult and Tina as a kid. He did not view the sex as a consensual relationship with an adult—he clearly by his testimony viewed her as a child both then and now. That makes him a predatory pedophile. He stated in court that he had been saying things to Tina in the weeks before hand which seemed to be an attempt to groom her for his sexual use and pleasure.

And what about the people who follow a shepherd who sides with the wolves and blames the wounded sheep?

Leah,

I agree with you. I was very disturbed about more sympathy shown for Willis than Anderson. You raise many good points

Had it been left to Phelps, Ernie would not have faced trail.

Phelps is not a law enforcement official. Could he have done more? Yes. Was he responsible for the police not taking action? No. Was his presentation of these events to the church improper? Yes. Phelp’s opinion of events had no legal bearing on a case of statutory rape. Law enforcement do not use citizen’s opinions to frame their investigations.

So if someone robs a convenience store, and someone says “They did it because they were really poor and very hungry” this DOES NOT impede the investigation.

I think we all agree that Willis is a criminal deserving the consequences of his crimes.

I think the concern about the motives of the IFB Cult Survivors is misplaced and ill thought out… And for the record, I think most of the people in the IFB Survivors group are believes.

My problem with the IFB cult survivors group is 1) independent baptist churches are not a cult, so their group from the gate is based on fear-mongering hyperbole 2) their response to those with whom they disagree is to attack the person’s character, accuse them of being criminals themselves, and make veiled threats against their family.

My sympathy for them ended when they publicly accused me of abusing my children and had reported me to the authorities- all because I said that it was possible for a young woman of 15 to consent to sex, and that there are ways to reduce one’s risk of experiencing sexual assault and violence. The people who sent me threatening emails and messages, and made comments about me online, never even responded to anything I actually said. So much for being concerned about ‘the truth’ coming out.

Wounded or not, those are not the actions of believers who are allowing the comfort of the Holy Spirit to rule their lives and experiencing victory over sin in Christ.

BTW, the authorities had enough sense, apparently, to not take the accusations against me seriously. So- what about the sheep that have apparently turned into cannibals?

[rogercarlson] Leah,

I agree with you. I was very disturbed about more sympathy shown for Willis than Anderson. You raise many good points

Roger,

I’d be very interested in ~anyone~ who showed sympathy for Willis on this website. Can you document that?

Susan,

If you beat a sweet little dog long enough with a stick, it will eventually turn you out of self preservation and bite anyone who tries to rescue it. It doesn’t justify the dog biting others, but it certainly explains a great deal. In that group you have a group of people who have been wounded at the very core of their souls by people that they were supposed to be able to trust. That kind of thing changes a person and haunts them sometimes the rest of their lives. Not imagined hurts, but real honest to goodness hurts as the results of others sinning against them. I don’t think I said their actions represented those living a life filled with the Holy Spirit experiencing victory over sin in Christ. I did say they were used by God to bring about justice in this case. And I do think however flawed or perfect they are, most of them are part of the body of Christ.

If you received threats against you, it is a crime and you should take those seriously and report them to the appropriate authorities. Name calling and personal attacks do not further the argument on either side of the coin and should not be tolerated or returned in kind.

Sexual abuse in society is a giant problem. It is not limited by any means to the unsaved world and it is not kept out of our congregations. Here is some stats on the matter if you care to read them. The screams are so loud and the cries so strong and over the top because it appears society at large and the church in specific are not listening.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats2.htm

Sex abuse is a crime that is on the rise inside and outside the church. When people have been personally hurt by it the tend to scream louder and longer and at the top of their lungs if and when they find their voice. Too many do not find their voice and suffer in silence. Tina didn’t find her voice. Someone else stood up and spoke for her. That someone might be a bit brassy and mouthy and over the top, but God bless her, she spoke up the best way she knew how and as a result justice was served. I would agree that lots of those folks are rough around the edges. But they are trying to make a difference to help victims. When you have been decimated by someone sinning against you in such a deep personal and destructive way, most of your life is not only rough around the edges, but a bunch of torn pieces leaving you to struggle to keep it all together. I have compassion for someone like that and pray that God will put those pieces back together in a fashion stronger than they were originally and that they will be used by God to seek out and help restore others to Him that have been hurt in a similar manner.

Sexual assault is the sin that keeps on giving and giving and giving. A few stats from rainn.org link above:

Effects of Rape
Victims of sexual assault are:

3 times more likely to suffer from depression.

6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.

13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.

26 times more likely to abuse drugs.

4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.

Here is another link with some stats that ought to make your heart sink. And when you go to the store, out to eat, or to church, look around and whether you realize it or not, you are encountering victims every day.
http://www.rainn.org/statistics
15 of 16 rapists will never spend a day in jail. Until recently Ernie was 1 of the 15. Now is in the 1 out of 16 category.

Susan, my sympathy and compassion do not begin and end with how people treat me or respond to me. As a believer, we are to model how Christ offers sympathy and compassion. When I was His enemy, in total rebellion against Him, when I caused Him to die on the cross and suffer unimaginable pain, He loved me. I didn’t and couldn’t ever give Jesus a single reason to love me. He loves me and shows me compassion–He gives me hope and offers mercy—not because of who I am, but because of who He is. He Is and there is no one like Him.

Maybe not showing sympathy directly for Ernie on this sight, but it is clear that Dr. Phelps did. He said so during his testimony.

“Phelps: Tina said she’d seen him once and it never happened again and she reiterated that over and over again. Phelps: I figured Ernie had far more to lose than Tina by being honest, so I figured Tina was being dishonest.

Read more: http://livewire.wmur.com/Event/Day_3_Of_Ernest_Willis_Trial#ixzz1NxLHRO…”

I do not have any counselling experience, but I would think that in a situation like that (a 39 year old married man who had raped a previouly abused 15 year girl twice and would have a lot to lose) would be much more likely be dishonest, than a previously abused 15 year old who has really nothing to lose. That just seems like common sense to me.

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
ESV

It is reported that Phelps lied to his congregation and said they were completely different matters. Does this leave him in a position of being blameless and harmless? Is Phelps above reproach in this matter? Is he respectable in how he handled this matter?

How is he thought of by outsiders after his appearance on 20/20 and his testimony in the trail? It seems the defense attorney tried to distance Ernie from how the jury likely felt about Phelps.

Does Phelps categorizing the sex as consensual leave him blameless and harmless?

Does categorizing Tina as a liar and Ernie as being honest leave him blameless and harmless and sober minded when his own notes proved Tina was telling the truth and Ernie was the liar?

Has his conduct toward Tina been gentle and hospitable?

Does one need to continue to meet the Biblical qualifications to remain a pastor? Or is it once in always in no matter the sin?

For one who claims to be a fundamentalist, holding to the literal interpretation of the Word, how should one respond to the evidence against Phelps?

[Leah Hayes] S
Susan, my sympathy and compassion do not begin and end with how people treat me or respond to me. As a believer, we are to model how Christ offers sympathy and compassion. When I was His enemy, in total rebellion against Him, when I caused Him to die on the cross and suffer unimaginable pain, He loved me. I didn’t and couldn’t ever give Jesus a single reason to love me. He loves me and shows me compassion–He gives me hope and offers mercy—not because of who I am, but because of who He is. He Is and there is no one like Him.

Will you extend this to Chuck Phelps?

[JasonR]

[Leah Hayes] S
Susan, my sympathy and compassion do not begin and end with how people treat me or respond to me. As a believer, we are to model how Christ offers sympathy and compassion. When I was His enemy, in total rebellion against Him, when I caused Him to die on the cross and suffer unimaginable pain, He loved me. I didn’t and couldn’t ever give Jesus a single reason to love me. He loves me and shows me compassion–He gives me hope and offers mercy—not because of who I am, but because of who He is. He Is and there is no one like Him.

Will you extend this to Chuck Phelps?

Sure thing, but that doesn’t mean he should not be held accountable for his actions. And just because I show compassion for someone doesn’t mean that overrules the Biblical qualifications for someone to be a pastor. Forgiveness doesn’t mean that people are not held accountable and forgiveness does not mean that people are freed from the consequence of their sin here on this earth.

Jay,

Mr. Kessell alluded to what I was speaking of. To know knowledge no one at SI said that. But in Phelps’ testimony he certainly implied that.