Should Congregations Vote to Discipline?
Several weeks ago a pastor called, heartbroken and wondering what to do next. The church he pastored (Southern Baptist) had voted down a church discipline matter. The facts were plain: a man in the church had been privately confronted multiple times in accordance to Jesus’ words in Matthew 18, but had only become more rude and more arrogant toward those calling him to repentance. He interrupted the preaching, held secret meetings and slandered those in leadership. Yet, when the matter was brought to the congregation as instructed in Matthew 18:17, the majority of those present voted against calling on the man to repent.
The pastor, who had been at the church less than a year, resigned soon after the vote. The vote proved to him that the majority of church members distrusted the leaders and himself, and did not want to call the individual to repentance. In fact, the man who was exonerated by vote enjoyed a reputation in the church as a significant leader in his own right, thus explaining why they trusted him more than their new pastor. The pastor believed the majority did not want to follow him or the Bible, and now, along with a group of ex-members, has agreed to their request to plant a new church.
What went right
If the pastor was more politically-minded than shepherding-minded he might have encouraged others to simply ignore the rude behaviors and arrogance of the man than privately confront him. But the pastor knew that Jesus’ teaching requires private confrontation, and when a matter of sin is certain and an individual remains impenitent then the matter is to be brought to the church (Matthew 18:15-16). The facts of the situation show that he and others in the church were doing right by being faithful to the church member and the Lord.
What went wrong
When it came to their fellow member and the charge of sin, the members of the church were being asked to act as this man’s judge and jury. Their vote would reveal if they believed him guilty or innocent of the accusation of sin, and either result in an end of the discipline, or a continuation of it. As judges and juries are inclined to do in this world, they judged wrongly. They exonerated a sinning member while losing a pastor who was willing to take a confrontational stand on an issue of sin and righteousness.
Does Matthew 18 teach that the congregation has authority?
Those who believe that the congregation should vote in church discipline cases (a popular practice called congregationalism) insist the entire church is the final authority in judging cases of church discipline because the two phrases in Matthew 18:17, “tell it to the church” and “if he refuses to listen even to the church.”
From these words two conclusions are drawn. First, Matthew 18:15-17 shows an ascending authority from one-to-one confrontation (v. 15) to small group confrontation (v. 16) that ends with church confrontation (v. 17). Therefore, the congregation has the greatest authority. The second claim is that the unrepentant offender can be put out of the church only after the entire church has been involved. In other words, no one can be put out of the church by only a few in the church, such as the leaders. Therefore, the only rightful authority in excommunication is the entire church.
But a careful reading of Matthew 18:17 shows that the church is not called to a higher authority—that is, to judge the person’s guilt or innocence. Instead, the Lord calls the church to submit to the prior judgment of the two or three witnesses since they have “established the evidence” (v. 16). Nowhere in Matthew 18 does Jesus ask the congregation to approve or disapprove on the evidence of the witnesses and thereby on the guilt and innocence of the offender. Rather, He commands the church members to respond to the certain evidence of the witnesses by submissively confronting the unrepentant member.
The Lord Himself placed the determinative authority of church discipline in the judgment of the two or three. He tasks them, and not the church, with the responsibility to prove unrepentant sin in Matthew 18:16. In the passage, Jesus further explains that He and the Father determine the guilt or innocence in concert with the two or three witnesses before the congregation ever hears it:
If two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them. (Matt. 18:19–20).
The “two or three” refer back to the agreement of the “two or three witnesses” of verse 16. God the Father and God the Son affirm and defend the work of the two or three witnesses in establishing the factuality of impenitence. Since the first two persons of the Godhead affirm the evidence of the witnesses, what need is there for a church to vote and rule on that which the first two persons of the Trinity have already ratified? Jesus did not say, “If the church agrees about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven,” but “If two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.” Thus He exalts the judgment of the witnesses so that the church may hear the witnesses’ testimony as exactly reflecting His own. Jesus did not command the church to establish any facts or to rule or judge on the testimony of the witnesses. The Son of God gave this responsibility to the two or three witnesses alone.
Creating Further Sin
Sadly, men’s ways can get involved in these matters and really make a mess of things. For example, congregational voting in the case of an unrepentant member could create a serious breach of faith with Christ. What if a church decides to discipline out an impenitent member by vote, but some in the church vote not to remove him? Those who vote not to remove the unrepentant member have sinned against the Lord by establishing their own verdict of innocence that opposes what the Lord already ratified (Matt. 18:20). In such a case they have sinned against the Father’s established judgment (Matt. 18:18–19), Jesus’ established evidence (Matt. 18:20), their fellow church members (1 Cor. 1:10), and the two or three witnesses who went through the difficult labor of establishing the evidence (Matt. 18:16). Or, in the case referred to above, the majority of members simply vote contrary to the evidence and annul the discipline process. Based on Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 18, they now need to be called to repentance for their sinful vote, not just privately, but before the whole church.
What God Does Want the Church to Do
The difficult ministry in church discipline is not holding a church vote but rather ensuring that the evidence of hardened and unrepentant sin is “true and certain” (Deut. 17:5). That difficulty is followed by another – telling the congregation to fulfill its obligation to the erring member. That congregational obligation is enjoined upon the members to go and tell the impenitent member to repent of the sins they were told about – the sins announced to the congregation that were established as factual.
Like the individual of Mat. 18:15 and the witnesses of Mat. 18:16, the members of the congregation should go and speak to the member, asking him to repent. Jesus teaches the church that if he “will not listen” he is to be put out (v. 17). “Listen” in verse 17 means the same thing as it does in verses 15 and 16. It is the unrepentant man “personally hearing and turning” from his sin. The congregation is not called by Jesus to be the man’s judge and jury, but, as brothers and sisters in Christ, they are to go and try to reclaim a lost sheep (Matthew 18:12–14).
Most of Matthew 18:16 blends Deuteronomy 17:6 and Deuteronomy 19:15, showing that our Lord expects the two or three witnesses to understand their role in light of Old Testament teaching. In those texts, the Old Testament Israelite people were commanded to put to death anyone convicted by only two or three witnesses for sins such as idolatry or homicide. It was not the people’s responsibility to vote on whether the witnesses had performed due diligence and full discovery in establishing the factuality of the accusations. God Himself required the witnesses to do that hard work in submission to local judges (Deuteronomy 16:18), just as Christ tells New Testament witnesses in the New Testament church to “establish the evidence,” who then submit their evidence to the church’s elders.
Having a congregation vote on matters of sin and righteousness is a recipe for disaster. The complexities of people’s sins are intricate and thorny matters that defy public meetings. Church members simply don’t have the heart or time to investigate such matters thoroughly before rendering a judgment, nor do they often have the Christian maturity to do so. This is why witnesses must establish the facts of impenitence under the care of qualified leaders for they are acting to defend the holiness of Christ and His purifying power in the congregation. They establish the facts so we don’t have to.
You see, if we make voting decisions on intricate matters without the enormous amount of effort that Jesus expects of the two or three witnesses we end up practicing the sin of presumption on other people’s guilt and innocence. We also imply that the two or three witnesses were unfaithful to Christ because we, their fellow church members, must approve or disapprove their findings with our vote. In part that is why so few congregational churches practice church discipline—voting makes the process tangled, convoluted, and political.
The role of church leaders
Jesus doesn’t refer to church leadership in Matthew 18, but that doesn’t mean that church discipline should be decided on by just any two or three people in the church. Beginning in Matthew and finishing in Revelation, Jesus reveals the church in “progressive revelation.” What is only sketched out briefly in Matthew 18 is filled in by Acts and the New Testament letters. The apostolic letters always work within the framework of Jesus’ teaching, and their teaching on discipline is no different. Later New Testament passages fully rely upon Matthew 18 but add the details of elder involvement (e.g., 1 Tim. 5:19–22, Titus 1:5–16, 1 Thess. 5:12–14, 3 John 10). At the time of Jesus’ teaching on the church in Matthew 18 no one but Him even knew what a local church was. So He doesn’t give us the details of church leadership in His first teaching on it, but instead gives us the essentials of how to restore a wandering Christian, and how to put an unrepentant person out of His church. Jesus thought it best to leave to the epistles to explain the role of leaders in the process.
In the epistles the elders are called by Christ to oversee and shepherd the flock (1 Tim. 3:1, 1 Tim. 5:17, 1 Peter 5:1), so the witnesses must meet with one or more elders to inform them of the situation. Prior to telling the church of someone’s sin, the elders will look into the matter themselves according to the nature of the situation and the skill of the witnesses. Their role requires them to make certain of impartial evidence and proper confrontation as described by the Lord in Matthew 18 and other New Testament passages.
Conclusion
Jesus doesn’t ask for a vote in Matthew 18 because in matters of sin and righteousness voting is worthless. He doesn’t want you be your brother’s judge and jury but to be involved in the godly work of restoring him as a wandering sheep. Actually, Jesus is merciful to involve you in the restoration process by telling you to go and confront your errant brother. He doesn’t need or want your vote nor is Jesus concerned with the “voice of the congregation.” Instead, His voice tells us to call our wandering brother to repentance. It isn’t obedient to answer Him, “we’ll vote on it.”
Ted Bigelow Bio
Ted Bigelow earned the MDiv and ThM at The Master’s Seminary and has a doctorate in expository preaching from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He pastors Grace Church in Hartford, CT and has been married to Deena since 1987. They are blessed with 4 children who, by God’s mercy, love the Lord: Katie (20), Karryn (18), Daniel (15) and David (13).
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[Ted Bigelow]…1. I don’t think that the distinction between “accusers” and “witnesses” is valid.
Maybe I can help here. Jesus calls the people involved “witnesses.” You [Jeff Brown] are viewing them as “accusers” only. Jesus wants witnesses - people who will do a thorough job of determining either sin or righteousness in the one being accused: “that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses” (Mat. 18:16, ESV). He doesn’t place a sanctified premium on presumptuousness. Only when the charges are substantiated by godly investigation can the accused be justly confronted for his sin, for if the 1 or 2 witnesses call on the person to repent when in fact he is innocent they have sinned. Remember, the context is restoring wandering sheep, not ganging up on a brother.
Jeff, given the situation described in my post, would you still like to defend the congregation as “the final arbiter?” If so, what do we learn from that situation?
No one should bear witness to something he hasn’t observed. I think both sides here agree on that.
And anyone who believes in the subject’s innocence will not be one of the “witnesses” of Matthew 18.
These witnesses accuse.
2. I think you need to look more carefully at Matthew 18 with regard to this matter that “the charges may be established.”
[Ted Bigelow]…Right - he might claim either, “I didn’t do it,” or “It isn’t sinful.”
In a congregational church the challenge is to share enough information so the people are properly equipped to vote, but not so much as gossip or slander occurs. Of course, if the member has equal rights, shouldn’t he/she be allowed equal time (or more) before the congregation to plead his/her side? Doesn’t a vote necessarily imply the matter is not established, as the Lord commands in Mat. 18:16? After all, if the matter is established, what does a vote add from a standpoint of righteousness?
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On the matter of Matthew 18 and what the witnesses do with regard to “establishing” the charges…
Jeff says you’re making the witnesses into judges. (But in Deuteronomy, the witnesses appear before judges.) You do appear to do so:
[Ted Bigelow, Article] But a careful reading of Matthew 18:17 shows that the church is not called to a higher authority—that is, to judge the person’s guilt or innocence. Instead, the Lord calls the church to submit to the prior judgment of the two or three witnesses since they have “established the evidence” (v. 16).It seems really obvious, but before I go on with this, I want to confirm it. Because in the discussion, you seem to make the elders the NT equivalent of the OT judges.
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The Lord Himself placed the determinative authority of church discipline in the judgment of the two or three.
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Thus He exalts the judgment of the witnesses so that the church may hear the witnesses’ testimony as exactly reflecting His own. Jesus did not command the church to establish any facts or to rule or judge on the testimony of the witnesses. The Son of God gave this responsibility to the two or three witnesses alone.
[Ted Bigelow, post 26] Excellent distinction, Jeff. You would propose the congregation be the in the place of the judges. I would propose it is the elders, who are specifically tasked to be “elders” (c.f. Deut. 19:12) “overseers” and “shepherds” by the word of God.So who are the modern church equivalent of the “2 or 3” and the “judges” of Deuteronomy 19?
[JDitlev] I don’t really see how avoiding discipline with an unrepentent sinner, as you (through Mark Devers words) suggest, would be beneficial to the body. While I agree that showing up to pastor a church and then being involved in discipline is a messy situation, is there a better approach to take, or would you just live with the sin and hope that the person changes through your preaching?I can’t speak for Pastor Dever of course, but I’m reading him (on “making your membership meaningful”) as implying that if a church’s main problem is that they either are so weak in teaching that they don’t understand church discipline and how to exercise it, or they have a significant number of unconverted members, they have much bigger problems than the presence of one sinful member. If the entire loaf is leavened through and through, purging some leaven by attempting to remove one member is not the first step that needs to be taken. The pastor should certainly not give up on pursuing church discipline against an unrepentant member, but he may have a lot of work to do before he can carry that out scripturally when he is new to a work and when the congregation doesn’t yet trust him, whether he carries out the discipline through the congregation or through elders and just the two or three witnesses.
I would submit that if the congregation doesn’t trust the pastor/elders (as apparently they did not in the example given), then a unilateral decision by the pastor/elders would not have been taken well either. Instead of voting down what the pastor had presented and then him leaving as a result, they would likely have instigated a full rebellion in the form of a pastoral recall, and the end result would have been the same, with significantly more strife thrown in.
I’m not saying a pastor shouldn’t stand up for what the Bible says, and I’m sure Pastor Dever isn’t doing that either. However, an untaught or largely unregenerate church cannot be expected to live properly by the Bible, let alone carry out church discipline correctly, and hence, those problems should be corrected first. Who knows, maybe the one that should be disciplined will get things right along with the rest of the church in this case before church discipline becomes necessary. Church discipline is only effective (or really even necessary) where there is a godly congregation to protect. If they are truly saved, but not willing to exercise proper discipline, they need to get the beams out of their eyes before checking the eyes of their brother.
Dave Barnhart
I can’t speak for Pastor Dever of course, but I’m reading him (on “making your membership meaningful”) as implying that if a church’s main problem is that they either are so weak in teaching that they don’t understand church discipline and how to exercise it, or they have a significant number of unconverted members, they have much bigger problems than the presence of one sinful member. If the entire loaf is leavened through and through, purging some leaven by attempting to remove one member is not the first step that needs to be taken. The pastor should certainly not give up on pursuing church discipline against an unrepentant member, but he may have a lot of work to do before he can carry that out scripturally when he is new to a work and when the congregation doesn’t yet trust him, whether he carries out the discipline through the congregation or through elders and just the two or three witnesses.Excellent point Dave. Thanks for the post.
[Dan Miller] So who are the modern church equivalent of the “2 or 3” and the “judges” of Deuteronomy 19?Hi Dan,
The 2 or 3 are members of the church. It is the initial accuser who then bought in 1 or 2 more (Mat. 18:16). I do not teach that they must have first hand experience of the sin, but must go into the situation examining both the accused and the accuser. Their role is not initially to accuse (Jeff’s position) but to sift, evaluate, and determine the factuality of the matter. In this way they don’t have to receive the testimony of the first accuser. They are to investigate it with an open mind, seeking evidence of either innocence or guilt. I base that on the “hina” clause of Mat. 18:16. If the matter of sin is indeed factual, then they do indeed confront the person and plead for repentance. At that point they become accusers, but they are not called into the situation by the initial accuser to bring accusations, but to determine if the accusation is true and certain, or not.
I teach that the elders of the NT church are the equivalent of “local judges” in Deuteronomy - who were often elders themselves (Deut. 19:12). Jeff claims the assembly are the equivalent of the OT judges. In distinction I teach the local church is the NT equivalent of the OT congregation, and reference Deut. 17:6-7 to support it.
Try this way:
1. The judge in Deuteronomy has this modern equivalent: ________________.
2. The “2 or 3” in Deuteronomy has this modern equivalent: ________________.
[Dan Miller] ok, I’m still not clear on how you relate Matt 18 to Deut 19.I tried in the other post. How about if you just share what you see to be the potential error or inconsistency in my teaching?
Try this way:
1. The judge in Deuteronomy has this modern equivalent: ________________.
2. The “2 or 3” in Deuteronomy has this modern equivalent: ________________.
If the pastor was more politically-minded than shepherding-minded he might have encouraged others to simply ignore the rude behaviors and arrogance of the man than privately confront him. But the pastor knew that Jesus’ teaching requires private confrontation, and when a matter of sin is certain and an individual remains impenitent then the matter is to be brought to the church (Matthew 18:15-16).
Ted, did I say this?
Jeff Brown
I would disagree with you that the point is about whether voting is in the text or not. I don’t think anyone writing here for the view that the ekklesia makes the dicision would argue that a vote has to be taken. You and Ted have made the issue about voting, and thus if there is no vote, there can be no congregational decision. But I really don’t think that is legitimate at all. As Bob mentioned, and as I have written repeatedly, groups have various methods of making a decision. The Bible is not so Byzantine as to mandate voting procedures. But because it does not, cannot mean that the congregation sits passive (or as you have described, one or two or so afterward tell the sinner to repent whenever they might see him).
I think that I have understood you both to say, essentially, “If there is not vote mandated, there is no congregational rule.” If this is what you are saying, I think most Bible students would say, please prove it.
Thus: there are no elders visible in the Matthew passage. There is an ekklesia visible, which makes the final decision. Does the interpretation depend upon your polity? Not necessarily. Note what Henry Alford, an Anglican says about Matt. 18:17.
the ekklesia is “the congregation of Christians; i.e. in the early times, usch as in Acts 4:32, the one congregation - in after times, that congregation of which thou and he are members. That it cannot mean the Church as represented by her rulers, appears by vv. 19,20 - where any collection of believers is gifted with the power of deciding in such cases.” Greek New Testament, I.88.
So, J, this is my answer to how it is interpreted.
Addressing me by my first name is just fine. Most everyone on this website does, as does everyone in my church.
Jeff Brown
[Jeff Brown] J,Thanks for clarifying Jeff, I appreciate it!
So, J, this is my answer to how it is interpreted.
It is legitimate for you to ask me to answer about this. I could not get to it earlier, and rather forgot about it. Please let me answer this way:
The disciples are the ones spoken to. From 18:1, it appears to be the twelve only. So these are the ones address as “you.” The whole of 18:15-20 has no meaning except in the context of the church. Exegetes often mention that there is no explanation of the meaning of ekklesia. But that is not because the disciples had no notion of the meaning of ekklesia (Gk) or kenshita (Ara), whichever Jesus used on that occasion. The disciples understood themselves as the Messianic community, awaiting the day when Jesus would be recognized by the whole nation. That is how they grasped the meaning then. To assume they thought of the ekklesia as an assembly that remains passive in a judiciary matter would have been unlikely.
Likewise the disciples were very well aware of disciplinary proceedings. People were, when the situation demanded it, excluded from synagogues (and they expected to punished there, Matt 10:17). Preserving their existence demanded in those days that synagogues practice excommunication. But, as Emil Schürer (History of the Jewish People, Vol. 2 and Strack and Billerbeck Kommentar zum Neuen Testament, 1:787 (these are very well established authorities in Jewish-Christian studies) point out, The way in which the fully assembly of the Christian church and the full assembly of the Qumran community decided on discipline, is entirely distinct from synagogue discipline. In synagogue discipline, the Elders decided disciplinary action.
Now to the passage: in v.17, Jesus tells the 12 disciples that when the sinner does not accept the correction of the first brother plus one or two others, they are to tell it to the ekklesia, which they would have understood as the Messianic Community. The entire Messianic community makes the decision. Why? The answer is in v.18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Now, either this was meant for only the 12, or it was meant for any assembly of Christians. It is the church which is His body. It is Jesus who is head of the Church. They have heavenly authority. The actual reason why they were so capable of deciding as the final arbiter of discipline would be revealed later. They were all indwelt, baptized, and led by the Holy Spirit.
Coming to vv.19-20, I do not want to be so dogmatic. It is interpreted various ways. To me it makes the most sense to take it like Henry Alford did (and like many others after him). The “two or three of you” was in that moment two or three of the 12 disciples, but with obvious reference to all Christians in view of the later of the formation of the Church. Whatever size the gathering, the church, large or small, even as two or three, has heavenly authority, because Jesus is its head and the Holy Spirit indwells it as His temple.
It appears to me, that you say instead, it is the two or three who have heavenly authority, but not the church. Or (since you have already said that the 2 or 3 come to the elders who speak to the church), it is the elders only who have heavenly authority, not the church. Or have I misunderstood you?
Jeff Brown
But to say that “witnesses” in the biblical sense on such an occasion accuse, of this I am rightly accused.
Jeff Brown
Jeff Brown
[Ted Bigelow] I tried in the other post. How about if you just share what you see to be the potential error or inconsistency in my teaching?Ok, but I’ll have to post twice. First, I’ll address what you said in the opening Article:
[Ted Bigelow, Article] But a careful reading of Matthew 18:17 shows that the church is not called to a higher authority—that is, to judge the person’s guilt or innocence. Instead, the Lord calls the church to submit to the prior judgment of the two or three witnesses since they have “established the evidence” (v. 16).In Deuteronomy, although the matter is established by the testimony of the 2 or 3, the matter is NOT judged by the 2 or 3. It is judged by the judges. You’re making the testimony into the judgment.
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The Lord Himself placed the determinative authority of church discipline in the judgment of the two or three.
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Thus He exalts the judgment of the witnesses so that the church may hear the witnesses’ testimony as exactly reflecting His own. Jesus did not command the church to establish any facts or to rule or judge on the testimony of the witnesses. The Son of God gave this responsibility to the two or three witnesses alone.
It would then seem you hold that there is no real judgment - at least no judgment beyond what the 2 or 3 say. In other words, the accuser (2 or 3) testifies to the church about the sin. Perhaps the subject (accused) speaks on his own behalf. And then no other determination [judgment-declaration] of guilt is made. Indeed, since you hold that the accusation of the 2 or 3 is the judgment, it would seem that there would be little else to say.
Maybe this is what you teach? or…
[Ted Bigelow, post 26] Excellent distinction, Jeff. You would propose the congregation be the in the place of the judges. I would propose it is the elders, who are specifically tasked to be “elders” (c.f. Deut. 19:12) “overseers” and “shepherds” by the word of God.So, this would look like this:
The “2 or 3” of Deuteronomy 19 are equivalent to the “2 or 3” of Matthew 18.
The “judges” of Deuteronomy 19 are NOT equivalent to the “2 or 3” of Matthew 18. Instead, they are equivalent to the elders of the church.
This would be at odds with the original Article, but would make more sense.
[Jeff Brown]Hey Jeff,
Coming to vv.19-20, I do not want to be so dogmatic. It is interpreted various ways. To me it makes the most sense to take it like Henry Alford did (and like many others after him). The “two or three of you” was in that moment two or three of the 12 disciples, but with obvious reference to all Christians in view of the later of the formation of the Church. Whatever size the gathering, the church, large or small, even as two or three, has heavenly authority, because Jesus is its head and the Holy Spirit indwells it as His temple.
Thanks for addressing my question. I now understand your interpretation of v.19-20 in context with v. 15-18. So in my reading of the passage, v. 19-20 parallels very well with v.16 and the witnesses, rather than v.17 with the assembly.
It appears to me, that you say instead, it is the two or three who have heavenly authority, but not the church. Or (since you have already said that the 2 or 3 come to the elders who speak to the church), it is the elders only who have heavenly authority, not the church. Or have I misunderstood you?Right, so I see v. 19-20 as affirming the two or three witnesses’ testimony in v. 16 - which has been affirmed by the elders prior to bringing the unrepentence to the church. The evidence of unrepentence is investigated by the witnesses and then brought to the elders because of the elders’ role of servanthood authority in the church. The elders then would do a thorough investigation of the facts, to guard against false testimony, paralleled with the role of judges in Deut. 19, and then present the unrepentence to the church, if the charges are substantiated. In this way, the elders can be held accountable for this church-wide action (Hebrews 13:17), yet are only affirming the evidence of unrepentence brought about by the witnesses, which makes sense in context of v. 19-20. In this manner, the burden of the investigation lies with the witnesses and then is confirmed by the eldership, without requiring a church wide investigation of the facts. The church is simply required to submits to the elders’ account and confront the unrepentence in the hopes of bringing about repentence, out of obedience to Christ. If repentence does not occur, then the person is to be a tax-collector/Gentile.
Thanks for bearing with me Jeff!
J
Discussion