"When Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers"
Interesting article. I live in China. I work with Chinese college students every day. And by “Chinese,” I mean “citizens of China and people of ethnic Chinese descent.” When the author says “Chinese,” she means “adhering to the set of principles I am laying out in this article” (note paragraph 2).
While she says some valuable things, in general I take a pretty dim view of the author and her viewpoint.
1. What she represents as being the Chinese model isn’t really. Sure, the broad outline is right: my students constantly complain about the incredible pressure put on them to succeed. They talk about long school hours followed by long after-school hours, and about weekends and evenings devoted to extra study. Societal pressure to achieve is tremendous, and it in part accounts for the incredible touchiness of the Chinese nation about their own global status — a touchiness than often boggles the Western mind (I had a friend tell me that he thought the Beijing Olympics were a huge success because it showed the world that Chinese people were capable of winning gold medals. When I told him that nobody in North America would have doubted that, he didn’t understand).
But there’s a big difference between pressure to achieve and actual achievement. Exhibit A: my gradebook. About 20% of the students in our international studies program fail every year. Why? Because it’s hard. Somehow the magical Chinese success method didn’t pull them through. The problem is much, much worse in the Chinese educational system. There’s more I could say about this, but this isn’t the forum.
2. Whether it’s Chinese or not, her model isn’t any more Christian than the West’s. I don’t recall “the relentless pursuit of achievement in some area chosen by the parent to the exclusion of all other areas” as being part of the parental instruction given in Proverbs. The drive to social dominance at any cost is is every bit as spiritually dangerous, though undoubtedly more useful, as rank permissiveness.
So here’s my question (and this is a real question, not a sarcastic jab): sure, this is an interesting article. Why is it on the front page of SharperIron?
While she says some valuable things, in general I take a pretty dim view of the author and her viewpoint.
1. What she represents as being the Chinese model isn’t really. Sure, the broad outline is right: my students constantly complain about the incredible pressure put on them to succeed. They talk about long school hours followed by long after-school hours, and about weekends and evenings devoted to extra study. Societal pressure to achieve is tremendous, and it in part accounts for the incredible touchiness of the Chinese nation about their own global status — a touchiness than often boggles the Western mind (I had a friend tell me that he thought the Beijing Olympics were a huge success because it showed the world that Chinese people were capable of winning gold medals. When I told him that nobody in North America would have doubted that, he didn’t understand).
But there’s a big difference between pressure to achieve and actual achievement. Exhibit A: my gradebook. About 20% of the students in our international studies program fail every year. Why? Because it’s hard. Somehow the magical Chinese success method didn’t pull them through. The problem is much, much worse in the Chinese educational system. There’s more I could say about this, but this isn’t the forum.
2. Whether it’s Chinese or not, her model isn’t any more Christian than the West’s. I don’t recall “the relentless pursuit of achievement in some area chosen by the parent to the exclusion of all other areas” as being part of the parental instruction given in Proverbs. The drive to social dominance at any cost is is every bit as spiritually dangerous, though undoubtedly more useful, as rank permissiveness.
So here’s my question (and this is a real question, not a sarcastic jab): sure, this is an interesting article. Why is it on the front page of SharperIron?
[Dave Talbert] II have the same question. I can’t see anything remotely Christian in it. I skimmed it and was a bit aghast at what I read through my “very American” eyes.
So here’s my question (and this is a real question, not a sarcastic jab): sure, this is an interesting article. Why is it on the front page of SharperIron?
But this is the problem when imposing one culture on another and then saying that what they are doing is terrible.
If it is true that everyone calls their kids “garbage” then, maybe it actually has another meaning that doesn’t translate into English well.
Regardless, if we examine her methods in view of the Bible, I don’t think her reasoning and treatment of her kids is How the Lord wants us to treat our children. Even if it brings results.
But also…if “everyone gets an A”…then what does an A still mean ‘superior/good job/well above average’?
This was not a Front Page article, but a Filing.
If you click on the About Filings link, you will see-
Filings are often suggested by SI users, and aren’t necessarily chosen by the SI staff (although the staff approves and posts them). Filings are simply “Hey, looky here, what do ya’ll think?” And Dave Talbert’s first post is exactly the kind of informational response that SI users might find helpful, especially if they read the article and had questions about its veracity.
If you click on the About Filings link, you will see-
SharperIron Filings are links to bits of news around the world and the “blogosphere.” The items linked to are not published by SI and do not necessarily express the opinions of anyone at SharperIron. They’re chosen because we believe they may be of interest to SI readers.
If you have suggestions or tips for Filings items, please use the contact form and select “Filings item suggestion” as the category.
Filings are often suggested by SI users, and aren’t necessarily chosen by the SI staff (although the staff approves and posts them). Filings are simply “Hey, looky here, what do ya’ll think?” And Dave Talbert’s first post is exactly the kind of informational response that SI users might find helpful, especially if they read the article and had questions about its veracity.
FWIW, I’m glad it was posted. Anyone stateside who listens to talk radio knows this article was all over conservative talk radio yesterday. It is a topic of conversation among my lost co-workers; I can only assume others are experiencing the same. Perhaps the discussion here will prepare a few readers to more effectively be salt and light in their sphere’s of influence.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
I think it should be obvious to believers whatever culture they find themselves a part of that neither the author nor the premise of supposed Chinese mothers as being superior is Biblical or Christian. What I saw a lot of in the article is idolatry. It doesn’t really matter if the idol is superiority and success as the supposed “Chinese model” or lackadaisical wringing of hands about a child’s self-esteem (as was stereotypically attributed to westerners), it is still idolatry. Of course, I know that this was not a Christian article, and I realized once again that the pragmatic, selfish, results driven, disobedience to Scripture is both western and eastern. How about parenting the biblical way by bringing up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. How about not provoking our children to wrath, how about teaching our children to honor and respect parents and to obey them? How about teaching our children to be like our Lord Jesus Christ, not like ourselves or what our society whether eastern or western determines as successful. I read articles like this because they are helpful to understand the need for the gospel in all nations, but I sometimes get irritated, because no doubt, many Christians will look at the product (which may be good) and follow the absolutely godless logic espoused by the author.
It seems that during the past decade or so America has developed this weird envy of Europe and nations like China. Isn’t China the nation that has a gov’t mandated ‘family planning policy’? Oh yeah- they’re so enlightened.
The mom in the article tells how she threatened her 7 yo daughter in various ways to get her to play a piano piece, until the house was “a war zone”. Punishment is for rebellion- a 7 yo having problems playing a song with both hands isn’t a sin problem. That mother has mental issues if she can’t tell the difference. And I know what her daughter probably learned from that exchange.
There may be some underlying cultural differences that affect how Western and Eastern parents parent- but as Bro. Talbert pointed out- we are to measure our methods by Biblical principles, not Western/Eastern culture.
The mom in the article tells how she threatened her 7 yo daughter in various ways to get her to play a piano piece, until the house was “a war zone”. Punishment is for rebellion- a 7 yo having problems playing a song with both hands isn’t a sin problem. That mother has mental issues if she can’t tell the difference. And I know what her daughter probably learned from that exchange.
There may be some underlying cultural differences that affect how Western and Eastern parents parent- but as Bro. Talbert pointed out- we are to measure our methods by Biblical principles, not Western/Eastern culture.
Growing as a teenager, I used to think the apparent brutality of Chinese discipline was inherently evil as compared to the more permissive and gentler style in, say, a Christian university in America. No threat of corporal punishment in the latter, no verbal lashings, no menacing monitoring to make sure the job’s done just right, no way! Going from one to the other felt like jail break.
Evil? Well, I’m not so sure anymore.
For one, the way Jacob, Moses, David, Saul-turned-Paul, Ananias and Sapphira, et al., got divinely spanked for their sins was for their good—just like Professor Amy’s daughters’ lamented “loss” of childhood. Getting a leg tendon pinched and limping for life, being exiled for 40 years, losing one’s children one by one through tragedy, being kept humble and dependent with a thorn in the flesh, and getting called home early in less than face-saving circumstances—do these sound like a “balanced” philosophy to western minds? Yet Romans 8:28 applies.
For another, the scriptures actually say that these spankings—not dignified time-outs—proved the paternity of God, such that we are not illegitimate children. As such they should be received with thanks and repentance.
Another strand of evidence is the empirical. In our lives as Christians, aren’t there times we feel like we’re under a divine “Chinese mother”? We don’t pass Go and collect $200. We wonder why God can’t be as nice to us as we are to our kids. “Lord, how long?” we cry. It almost feels like being clay getting mashed and molded in some potter’s hands. It’s tempting to judge His harshness, fairness, and wisdom.
I was almost out of my teens before sending my mom a card thanking her for making me learn to read on pain of a serious thrashing. Not everyone gets a Chinese mom. Not everyone with a Chinese mom responds the same way. Guess it doesn’t work for everyone, but the rod seemed to work for this fool’s back.
Evil? Well, I’m not so sure anymore.
For one, the way Jacob, Moses, David, Saul-turned-Paul, Ananias and Sapphira, et al., got divinely spanked for their sins was for their good—just like Professor Amy’s daughters’ lamented “loss” of childhood. Getting a leg tendon pinched and limping for life, being exiled for 40 years, losing one’s children one by one through tragedy, being kept humble and dependent with a thorn in the flesh, and getting called home early in less than face-saving circumstances—do these sound like a “balanced” philosophy to western minds? Yet Romans 8:28 applies.
For another, the scriptures actually say that these spankings—not dignified time-outs—proved the paternity of God, such that we are not illegitimate children. As such they should be received with thanks and repentance.
Another strand of evidence is the empirical. In our lives as Christians, aren’t there times we feel like we’re under a divine “Chinese mother”? We don’t pass Go and collect $200. We wonder why God can’t be as nice to us as we are to our kids. “Lord, how long?” we cry. It almost feels like being clay getting mashed and molded in some potter’s hands. It’s tempting to judge His harshness, fairness, and wisdom.
I was almost out of my teens before sending my mom a card thanking her for making me learn to read on pain of a serious thrashing. Not everyone gets a Chinese mom. Not everyone with a Chinese mom responds the same way. Guess it doesn’t work for everyone, but the rod seemed to work for this fool’s back.
That Chinese mom claims her parents were ” http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/01/13/the-tiger-mother-responds-… extremely strict—but also extremely loving .” Check out the video there, too! :bigsmile:
To be honest, J, though I feel like some (not all) of her methods cross the line — remember, we’re not God and can’t presume to safely employ all of his tactics — my real problem is with her goal. It isn’t radical discipline for the sake of producing Christlike character, as though this were some sort of monastic community. It’s social dominance. I think the technical theological term for that is worldliness.
Plus, I think her description of this as ‘Chinese’ rather than ‘mine’ is a little shady.
Plus, I think her description of this as ‘Chinese’ rather than ‘mine’ is a little shady.
Excerpt:
No spanking going on here. No wonder the kid is worked up into a frenzy- so is mom! And there is nothing Biblical about this approach.
Personally, I don’t believe in Rousseau’s romantic views on childhood, which still affect modern methods of child-rearing and education. I also don’t hold to current ideas of adolescence. But I don’t believe you teach self-control by losing control, or patience by becoming hysterical, or mercy by being brutal.
Chastisement can be harsh, but it is reserved for disobedience, not for innocent accidents or a lack of coordination or developmental delays.
What do the Chinese do (measuring against this mom’s description) with LD kids- take ‘em out back and shoot ‘em?
She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu’s dollhouse to the car and told her I’d donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn’t have “The Little White Donkey” perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, “I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?” I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn’t do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic… I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn’t let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling…
No spanking going on here. No wonder the kid is worked up into a frenzy- so is mom! And there is nothing Biblical about this approach.
Personally, I don’t believe in Rousseau’s romantic views on childhood, which still affect modern methods of child-rearing and education. I also don’t hold to current ideas of adolescence. But I don’t believe you teach self-control by losing control, or patience by becoming hysterical, or mercy by being brutal.
Chastisement can be harsh, but it is reserved for disobedience, not for innocent accidents or a lack of coordination or developmental delays.
What do the Chinese do (measuring against this mom’s description) with LD kids- take ‘em out back and shoot ‘em?
[Susan R]Susan, and I think your view reflects that of the majority here, I’m not sure Habakkuk felt that God’s form of chastisement was particularly “Biblical” or measured. At one point, he might’ve sounded like an Amy Chua kid in a frenzy:
No spanking going on here. No wonder the kid is worked up into a frenzy- so is mom! And there is nothing Biblical about this approach.
Personally, I don’t believe in Rousseau’s romantic views on childhood, which still affect modern methods of child-rearing and education. I also don’t hold to current ideas of adolescence. But I don’t believe you teach self-control by losing control, or patience by becoming hysterical, or mercy by being brutal.
Chastisement can be harsh, but it is reserved for disobedience, not for innocent accidents or a lack of coordination or developmental delays.
2 How long, LORD, must I call for help,And Yahweh’s reply? Oops, here’s a cuddle and some hot chocolate? Well, maybe not yet:
but you do not listen?
Or cry out to you, “Violence!”
but you do not save?
3 Why do you make me look at injustice?
Why do you tolerate wrongdoing?
Destruction and violence are before me;
there is strife, and conflict abounds.
4 Therefore the law is paralyzed,
and justice never prevails.
The wicked hem in the righteous,
so that justice is perverted.
5 “Look at the nations and watch—In other words, more inexplicable discipline. Ah yes, we all know about Habakkuk’s towering faith at the end of Chapter 3, but God kind of put him through two chapters of hard chiseling before that happens.
and be utterly amazed.
For I am going to do something in your days
that you would not believe,
even if you were told.
6 I am raising up the Babylonians,[a]
that ruthless and impetuous people,
who sweep across the whole earth
to seize dwellings not their own.
7 They are a feared and dreaded people;
they are a law to themselves
and promote their own honor.
What appears to be “mere” clumsiness and inattention to detail is considered in varying degrees of severity by different cultures. The simple act of crossing a road is something that’s somewhat cultural—playing hockey on a public street or even allowing a child to cross the road without holding an adult’s hand is regarded as perfectly safe and good by some. Some mothers, after their child’s “innocent mistake” will hold the kid’s ear on the next crossing and make him/her hold hers for the next 200—in addition to looking both ways. Brutal, yes. Saves a life? Probably. The only, best, and Christian way? I don’t think we can make any exclusive claims biblically.
What do the Chinese do (measuring against this mom’s description) with LD kids- take ‘em out back and shoot ‘em?Great question! Did you read about http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/01/13/the-tiger-mother-responds-…] Amy Chua’s sister Cindy ?
While I would think that few moms, Chinese or otherwise, would have a take ‘em out back and shoot ‘em approach to their disabled kids, my feeling’s that Chinese moms would be less willing to accept a diagnosis of LD, autism, or ADHD (or even PTSD for that matter! :O ) in their kids. There’s nothing that a trip to the woodshed couldn’t fix, so it seems—but that also means a sense of despair and collective shame when the diagnosis is confirmed. But yeah, I got through school but might’ve been a little Ritalin-deprived somewhere in my development. :X
[Dave Talbert] To be honest, J, though I feel like some (not all) of her methods cross the line — remember, we’re not God and can’t presume to safely employ all of his tactics — my real problem is with her goal. It isn’t radical discipline for the sake of producing Christlike character, as though this were some sort of monastic community. It’s social dominance. I think the technical theological term for that is worldliness.Well, I have no idea if she’s a Christian or what her ultimate goal might be. Nor, in terms of tactics, can I presume to choose which of His tactics are safe based on my feeling. Nobody asks the same thing when we’re talking of His love and forgiveness.
I do think that part of the “Chinese” discipline is based on the historical societal milieu. For those teaching English in China, the current generation of Chinese families in China may not be the best indication of traditional Chinese culture due to the radical redefinitions of family structure and values in the Maoist era. Pre-Maoist Chinese culture has survived largely in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the rest of the Diaspora. And that is further eroded through immigration—I would be surprised if Amy Chua’s children would carry on their mom’s extent of “Chinese” discipline intact with their kids in the future.
Having said that, I do think that, having lived with Fundamentalist Christian families in North America, there are probably more Christian values and tactics in the area of discipline in those homes. At least the biblical principles are better articulated, and articulated before the administration of discipline (then again, does God always send reminders?). But yeah, worldliness—perhaps in a different form—is seen. For Chinese moms, it may be envy and social dominance (or survival); for other moms, it may be popularity with the kids, laziness, Doctor Ben Spock, who knows what.
I think what’s needed is s “whole counsel” based theology of discipline—not just the apparently just and acceptable works of God but all of it. The pleasant bits (perhaps due to our cultural worldliness) are easy to accept in toto. But the harsher aspects of His “nurture and admonition” also have to be affirmed. How to put feet to them is another matter—probably for Christian, Spirit-led dads to decide.
I don’t think it was that idiosyncratic, for those of us who had the benefit of growing up in the Chinese diaspora.
Plus, I think her description of this as ‘Chinese’ rather than ‘mine’ is a little shady.
(Chuckling) It sounds like Amy would make a great drill sergeant at one of those high-profile exercise boot camps where they call people “fatties” and where they motivate people by yelling at them.
Some preachers motivate by yelling.
In chapel, Dr. Bob III wouldn’t tell students they are “garbage”, but wouldn’t he say you are a big zero with the lines rubbed out? :)
Some preachers motivate by yelling.
In chapel, Dr. Bob III wouldn’t tell students they are “garbage”, but wouldn’t he say you are a big zero with the lines rubbed out? :)
I actually read this article with interest…As a parent, I am continually evaluating how to motivate my children to succeed academically, musically, etc. Am I being too easy on them? Too hard? Harsh? Loving? What is “success,” anyway? These are questions that all “involved” parents mull over from time to time. I think comparing cultures/methods can be insightful, at least for me. Ms. Chua is probably painting with a pretty broad brush, but in my own (limited) observation and experience (music/orchestra, medical field), children of Asian ethnicity do indeed seem, on the whole, “hard-wired” to excel. And it’s interesting to see a bit of the mindset behind that stereotype.
One idea I found interesting is the difference in “creative ability” between those raised in a “Chinese”-type home and those who are not. I’m always wondering how to tweak my educational style and our home environment to provide my kids with opportunities to develop the “creative” aspect as well as facilitate the solidity that “rote memory” provides. IMO, there is value in both…Rote memory/muscle memory is foundational, but not exhaustive in usefulness.
One idea I found interesting is the difference in “creative ability” between those raised in a “Chinese”-type home and those who are not. I’m always wondering how to tweak my educational style and our home environment to provide my kids with opportunities to develop the “creative” aspect as well as facilitate the solidity that “rote memory” provides. IMO, there is value in both…Rote memory/muscle memory is foundational, but not exhaustive in usefulness.
I could probably blather on and on about what I believe the difference is between God’s chastisement and appropriate discipline/punishment for children by parents, but the short of it is- we are given many specific commands that direct our parenting methods, as well some fairly clear principles. None of them involve being unreasonable, obtuse, arbitrary, or brutal. AAMOF, fathers are told NOT to provoke their children to anger or discourage them. Following the Lord’s example only goes so far, since we do not possess His wisdom, humility, foreknowledge, or divinity- just to name a few areas where we can’t even begin to measure up. None of us would force someone to marry a prostitute, or run around naked preaching, or not have a funeral for a spouse. The prophets had a unique ministry that we cannot and should not attempt to duplicate.
I’m not saying Chinese parenting methods are bad, but Chinese parenting methods are as irrelevant as American ones- we shouldn’t measure against another culture, but against Scripture. I’ll grant that some lifestyles or cultures lend themselves naturally to discipline- I grew up on a farm in a run-down farmhouse with no indoor plumbing or television, so my version of a work ethic and my ideas of frugal look extreme to some- but I still must make sure I am adhering to Scripture.
Like Julie, I’m always looking around for insight and ideas, but I’m also diligently, ruthlessly, and unapologetically comparing them to what I understand the Bible to teach in that area. If I get the inkling that I might be mistaken about something, I’ll take a gander at it- but the bottom line is still going to be “Thus saith the Lord” and not what sayeth the Chinese.
I’m not saying Chinese parenting methods are bad, but Chinese parenting methods are as irrelevant as American ones- we shouldn’t measure against another culture, but against Scripture. I’ll grant that some lifestyles or cultures lend themselves naturally to discipline- I grew up on a farm in a run-down farmhouse with no indoor plumbing or television, so my version of a work ethic and my ideas of frugal look extreme to some- but I still must make sure I am adhering to Scripture.
Like Julie, I’m always looking around for insight and ideas, but I’m also diligently, ruthlessly, and unapologetically comparing them to what I understand the Bible to teach in that area. If I get the inkling that I might be mistaken about something, I’ll take a gander at it- but the bottom line is still going to be “Thus saith the Lord” and not what sayeth the Chinese.
Discussion