"'Calvinism destroys evangelism' and other big myths"

I love what you have written!

Here’s some things to help you with 1 John 2:2.

If you are able, look it 1 John 2:2 in the greek, and notice the preposition John uses in that verse - the one we translate “for” in English. It is not the preposition used for substitutionary atonement in John’s writings (John 10:11, 15, 11:50, 13:37-38, 1 John 3:16). Instead, he uses the proposition often translated, “concerning” in 1 John 2:2 (see 1 John 1:1). Many assume in 1 John 2:2 that John is writing about the extent of Christ’s substitutionary atonement. He was not. He wrote on the eficacy of Christ’s atonement, not its extent. Christ’s atonement completely propitiates every kind of sin that is in the world and which a believer might commit.

2nd, many also assume the phrase “the whole word” means each and every person. It does not. See 1 John 5:19, where it does not include all people (it does not include Christians in that verse). In fact, the word “world” never means each and every person in the world in the NT. For that we have the Greek word, “oikoumene” (Mat. 24;14, Luke 2:1, Rev. 3:10, 12:9).

Third, you probably need to answer the question, “If Jesus propitiated the sins of the every person, why does anyone go to hell?” Because if you want to say they go to hell because they did not believe, is that not evidence of the sin of unbelief? And if we say people go to hell for the sin of unbelief, then we also deny Jesus propitiated the Father for that one sin. Yet 1 John 2:2 teaches He propitiated every sin that is in the world. And unbelief is a biggie.

[Ted Bigelow] Third, you probably need to answer the question, “If Jesus propitiated the sins of the every person, why does anyone go to hell?”

The same reason people have to be saved even though Christ is their propitiation, because propitiation does not include the believing and being saved by individuals. It remains as the satisfaction for God but is not applied personally until one believes.

[Ted Bigelow] Because if you want to say they go to hell because they did not believe, is that not evidence of the sin of unbelief? And if we say people go to hell for the sin of unbelief, then we also deny Jesus propitiated the Father for that one sin. Yet 1 John 2:2 teaches He propitiated every sin that is in the world. And unbelief is a biggie.

One does not go to hell for unbelief (though this expression can be used appropriately understanding what their unbelief results in), rather because they decide to be judged on their own merits. There is a vast difference. And of course the result of being judged on your own merits and not the merits of Christ will result in one being declare unrighteous.

[Alex Guggenheim]

[Ted Bigelow] Third, you probably need to answer the question, “If Jesus propitiated the sins of the every person, why does anyone go to hell?”

The same reason people have to be saved even though Christ is their propitiation, because propitiation does not include the believing and being saved by individuals. It remains as the satisfaction for God but is not applied personally until one believes.

[Ted Bigelow] Because if you want to say they go to hell because they did not believe, is that not evidence of the sin of unbelief? And if we say people go to hell for the sin of unbelief, then we also deny Jesus propitiated the Father for that one sin. Yet 1 John 2:2 teaches He propitiated every sin that is in the world. And unbelief is a biggie.

One does not go to hell for unbelief (though this expression can be used appropriately understanding what their unbelief results in), rather because they decide to be judged on their own merits. There is a vast difference. And of course the result of being judged on your own merits and not the merits of Christ will result in one being declare unrighteous.

What?

I’m sorry, but Romans 1:18-32 seems to be pretty clear that people didn’t believe in or acknowledge God and that’s why they’re in the situation we’re in. I mean these verses are pretty straightforward:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

It has nothing to do with “deciding to be judged on their own merits”. And no, those two are not the same thing, as you yourself noted, although I do agree with you that the results of either unbelief or deciding to “do it on their own” leads to the same end.

Actually, I believe Alex is right…mostly. Any decision to embrace a works-based religion is a decision to face God on one’s own merits, though the person who made the decision might not have been thinking that way.
But unbelievers are not condemned for that sin specifically but for being “in Adam”… that is for being sinners. It’s the Original sin imputed to them, their own personal sins, and their status as unredeemed sinners that condemns them.
I have often heard folks say that those who reject the gospel are condemned only for their unbelief (and then sometimes they try to link this to the “unpardonable sin”). But this confuses the results of unbelief with a penalty for unbelief. Unbelief results in condemnation for the whole sin package (including the sin of unbelief).

(But it might be worth noting here that many who are condemned never commit the sin of rejecting the gospel: they simply never believe it because they have never heard it or never paid attention… i.e., they were never drawn)

I think Alex is correct that people don’t go to hell for unbelief, per se. His way of putting is correct though can be confusing. People go to hell because of sin, not just unbelief, but all their sin. They are standing on their own attempts at righteousness.

Someone call a doctor, I believe heart failure is imminent …but in case I am wrong, I believe the two posts above are within the periphery of what I was stating (obviously mine was a very short-hand statement). ;)

[Alex Guggenheim] The same reason people have to be saved even though Christ is their propitiation

OK, I’m having a little trouble getting it here, Alex. Who is making propitiation here, Christ, or the person who believes?

I’m going to assume your answer is “Christ.” So, if “Christ” is your answer, then when was the propitiation made for that person: when they believed, or when Christ died on the cross? If you answer, “it was applied when they believed,” then how did the sinner gain the power to believe? Was it not through the propitiation of Christ having already been applied to that sinner? Or did they contribute their faith to Jesus’ atonement, and thus get saved? That’s synergism, and a non-gospel.

If however, Christ is not your answer to my first question, you have not understood the gospel!

[Alex Guggenheim] propitiation does not include the believing and being saved by individuals. It remains as the satisfaction for God but is not applied personally until one believes.

The question is not whether propitiation includes the application of saving faith to a dead sinner; that is a distinct action, but the propitiation paves the way for it, does it not? They aren’t disconnected in the plan of God, are they!

The question before you is this: did Jesus propitiate the Father for each and every person in the world, including their sins of unbelief? And if you believe He did, then why, if they die in unbelief, are they forever punished for those sins by the Father when He was propitiated already for them and their sins? Another way of asking it is this: what was lacking in Christ’s propitiation that requires such sinners to still be punished for eternity for their sins, since 1 John 2:2 is perhaps interpreted by you to teach that Jesus propitiated the Father for those sinners and all their sins?

[Alex] One does not go to hell for unbelief… rather because they decide to be judged on their own merits.

Where did you get this? Actually, unbelief is the root of all sins - take Israel as an example: “Romans 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear.” Here’s the Lord’s words: John 8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

From unbelief comes all of our sins. If we believed God’s promises, His glorious Son, and trusted perfectly in His word, no one would sin.

But only One lived this way, even from His mother’s breast (Psalm 22:9). And it is His perfect faith that is freely credited to us by the Holy Spirit, not becasue we believe, for we are marked by unbelief, but because He died in our place a propitiatory sacrifice. Here is a glorious gospel worth preaching to ourselves, and others. The Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin, nor the leopard his spots. But God can take an unbeliever and make him a believer. Our standing before God is not that we exercised faith, but that Christ’s faith, which makes up part of His righteousness before the Father, has been granted to us. We are considered by the Father as if we had always perfectly believed, for Christ’s perfect faith is entirely imputed to us in the gospel.

Since we keep kicking the “Lord, Lord” passage around; this passage, I think, is more apropos:

[Matthew 13, ESV] The Parable of the Sower
13:1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”

The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. [2] 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

My theory/doctrine is that all of the people in those first three categories are unsaved. But that’s for a different discussion, although it bears true in this one as well.

[Jay C.] My theory/doctrine is that all of the people in those first three categories are unsaved. But that’s for a different discussion, although it bears true in this one as well.

Quite right. Further, in the parable of the sower, it ends with a veritable punch line worthy of a great belly laugh.

In Israel, a great harvest was 2-fold to 5-fold - for crop harvested to seed sown. 10-fold? Miracle. 30-fold? Utterly unheard of. 60 and 100-fold? Well, now we get the point, don’t we? The gospel produces a miracle amount of harvest in every soul that receives it as it actually is.

Every Israelite would have caught Jesus punch line, although most didn’t make the connection to the realm of spiritual fruit. Jesus point is this. The least fruit a person will show who believes will be a super abundant amount unexplainable by nature, and only explainable as the work of God Himself.

All others who receive the gospel message without true faith are exposed as having no fruit (seed on the path), and temporary fruit (seed sown in rocky ground and among thorns). They are indeed unsaved.