"Tiger Woods needs to golf. Michael Vick needs to be playing football," ... "Ted Haggard," Mr. Haggard said, "needs to be leading a church."

Quoting Ted Haggard from the article:

“I over-repented,” he said.

I must say I have never, in my life, heard this term.

I’m not sure why he could not ” continually to confront his sin” by simply being a congregant in a church.

“If I was arrogant, I would have gotten a job in a farm bureau co-op somewhere in Iowa, changed my name and never been heard from again,” he said.

Ahh, yes, the arrogance of anonymity. How does that work again?

[Wall Street Journal] He signed a contract promising to follow a path laid out by fellow clergy: to find a new career in a new state and to stay away from pastoral work.

“New career”? Nope. “New state”? Nope. “Stay away from pastoral work”? Nope.

It’s bad enough that he has no integrity. What’s even worse is that there are a couple hundred people who are fine with having him as a pastor.

[Alex Guggenheim] Quoting Ted Haggard from the article:

“I over-repented,” he said.

I must say I have never, in my life, heard this term.

My mouth is hanging open too, Alex. Wow.

The people that have joined themselves to this assembly, I suspect, are for the most part earnest people who believe in forgiveness, redemption from both a spiritual and personal standpoint and accept Ted with his past with the view that he has confessed his sins to God and man and they have moved on to begin again.

Is this all that should be in view when we evaluate ministry and those ministering? No, there is more but here I believe that the “more” is qualified in their minds. Why? Because just like those here arguing about ministry and how a Pastor must take personal interest in his flock and get to know them (I do not hold to this persuasion as it is articulated here) and demonstrates he cares in a way that they can experience personally, Ted does the same thing. In fact, I have no doubt that he will operate on principles much the same as many Pastor’s who use personal relationships, charisma and so on to build a flock which is quite plentiful in numbers among fundamentalist and Evangelical churches and widely taught as a biblical MO. And Ted is very disarming and personable with loads of charisma and concern for all who demand this from a Pastor as proof he should be their shepherd.

And Ted has a teaching gift. Whether one approves of his ministry or not does not void or make inoperable the spiritual dynamic of the gift of teaching when he communicates on Scripture. Now he might, of course, communicate error on some points but even those points do not negate the spiritual phenomenon that takes place when he teaches that which is correct, that phenomenon being the illumination and edification of those listening by way of the use of his gift empowered by the Spirit of God.

And this is why many will join themselves to this assembly which I do not believe will be out of self-serving or self-deceiving motives. To me is is very understandable why many would participate in such a ministry.

Would I? No. I’ve never found Ted Haggard to be any kind of exegete so on that alone I would not be interested, never minding other reasons to consider.

[Alex Guggenheim] The people that have joined themselves to this assembly, I suspect, are for the most part earnest people who believe in forgiveness, redemption from both a spiritual and personal standpoint and accept Ted with his past with the view that he has confessed his sins to God and man and they have moved on to begin again.

Is this all that should be in view when we evaluate ministry and those ministering? No, there is more but here I believe that the “more” is qualified in their minds. Why? Because just like those here arguing about ministry and how a Pastor must take personal interest in his flock and get to know them (I do not hold to this persuasion as it is articulated here) and demonstrates he cares in a way that they can experience personally, Ted does the same thing. In fact, I have no doubt that he will operate on principles much the same as many Pastor’s who use personal relationships, charisma and so on to build a flock which is quite plentiful in numbers among fundamentalist and Evangelical churches and widely taught as a biblical MO. And Ted is very disarming and personable with loads of charisma and concern for all who demand this from a Pastor as proof he should be their shepherd.

And Ted has a teaching gift. Whether one approves of his ministry or not does not void or make inoperable the spiritual dynamic of the gift of teaching when he communicates on Scripture. Now he might, of course, communicate error on some points but even those points do not negate the spiritual phenomenon that takes place when he teaches that which is correct, that phenomenon being the illumination and edification of those listening by way of the use of his gift empowered by the Spirit of God.

And this is why many will join themselves to this assembly which I do not believe will be out of self-serving or self-deceiving motives. To me is is very understandable why many would participate in such a ministry.

Would I? No. I’ve never found Ted Haggard to be any kind of exegete so on that alone I would not be interested, never minding other reasons to consider.

It is more about exegetical preaching. I know of some very good and effective preachers who don’t do the exegetical/expositional style. The question is whether Ted Haggard meets the Biblical requirements for a pastor as laid out in scripture, i.e. in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9 and Titus 1:5-9. If a person believes that Haggard does, make their case using those passages. If he doesn’t, then he shouldn’t be in the pulpit. Of course, from the nature of my reply, you can guess my opinion: that based on those scriptures above (and others) Haggard shouldn’t be pastoring a church, no Christian should follow him, and no other church or Christian should be in fellowship with his church or the members in it. At this point, even debatable whether Haggard should be accepted for even membership in a Bible-based congregation, let alone a leadership position and particularly pastor.

[JobK]

[Alex Guggenheim] The people that have joined themselves to this assembly, I suspect, are for the most part earnest people who believe in forgiveness, redemption from both a spiritual and personal standpoint and accept Ted with his past with the view that he has confessed his sins to God and man and they have moved on to begin again.

Is this all that should be in view when we evaluate ministry and those ministering? No, there is more but here I believe that the “more” is qualified in their minds. Why? Because just like those here arguing about ministry and how a Pastor must take personal interest in his flock and get to know them (I do not hold to this persuasion as it is articulated here) and demonstrates he cares in a way that they can experience personally, Ted does the same thing. In fact, I have no doubt that he will operate on principles much the same as many Pastor’s who use personal relationships, charisma and so on to build a flock which is quite plentiful in numbers among fundamentalist and Evangelical churches and widely taught as a biblical MO. And Ted is very disarming and personable with loads of charisma and concern for all who demand this from a Pastor as proof he should be their shepherd.

And Ted has a teaching gift. Whether one approves of his ministry or not does not void or make inoperable the spiritual dynamic of the gift of teaching when he communicates on Scripture. Now he might, of course, communicate error on some points but even those points do not negate the spiritual phenomenon that takes place when he teaches that which is correct, that phenomenon being the illumination and edification of those listening by way of the use of his gift empowered by the Spirit of God.

And this is why many will join themselves to this assembly which I do not believe will be out of self-serving or self-deceiving motives. To me is is very understandable why many would participate in such a ministry.

Would I? No. I’ve never found Ted Haggard to be any kind of exegete so on that alone I would not be interested, never minding other reasons to consider.

It is more about exegetical preaching. I know of some very good and effective preachers who don’t do the exegetical/expositional style. The question is whether Ted Haggard meets the Biblical requirements for a pastor as laid out in scripture, i.e. in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9 and Titus 1:5-9. If a person believes that Haggard does, make their case using those passages. If he doesn’t, then he shouldn’t be in the pulpit. Of course, from the nature of my reply, you can guess my opinion: that based on those scriptures above (and others) Haggard shouldn’t be pastoring a church, no Christian should follow him, and no other church or Christian should be in fellowship with his church or the members in it. At this point, even debatable whether Haggard should be accepted for even membership in a Bible-based congregation, let alone a leadership position and particularly pastor.

H.B. London (Focus on the Family Pastoral Care dept) was on the ‘accountability team’ that Haggard originally agreed to submit to and then left abruptly. From some comments I heard HB make, I conclude that he doesn’t believe Haggard’s “repentance” was genuine. So from the standpoint of even having the possibility of restoration, he hasn’t even reached first base. I see Haggard as a proud, arrogant, defiant man who will have his way regardless of what others counsel—even what the Scriptures say.

One thing that bothers me is that broken people are drawn to such people like Haggard. I don’t approve at all of him being in the ministry, but broken people were drawn to Jesus, why aren’t they as drawn to our churches as they are to the Haggard’s of the world? I sometimes wonder if I don’t put up a front of spiritually-having it-all-together and those with divorces in their past, immorality, rebellious children, etc. just don’t feel as if I or my church has a relevant message for them.

[Jonathan Charles] One thing that bothers me is that broken people are drawn to such people like Haggard. I don’t approve at all of him being in the ministry, but broken people were drawn to Jesus, why aren’t they as drawn to our churches as they are to the Haggard’s of the world? I sometimes wonder if I don’t put up a front of spiritually-having it-all-together and those with divorces in their past, immorality, rebellious children, etc. just don’t feel as if I or my church has a relevant message for them.

Well, I didn’t want to play this card, but Haggard is a charismatic. (Full disclosure: I was charismatic until about four years ago.) In that arena, there is a huge industry that plays on people’s pain. The prior charismatic scene (the one that I grew up in) denied grace and had people living in fear of condemnation. The current charismatics have done a 180 degree turn to where they now turn the grace of God into lasciviousness (note “Christian” softcore pornography models Carrie Prejean and Heidi Montag) and turn church into an Oprah Winfrey or Jerry Springer episode. Some of the better known purveyors of this include T.D. Jakes, Paula White, Juanita Bynum and Joyce Meyer. They give people an outlet for their grief and pain, sure, but they do not emphasize true repentance. Or should I say “repentance” to them means “saying I’m sorry for my sins” and not turning away from them. Nor does it even truly mean responsibility, because it encourages you to blame as much as you can on somebody else, whether it is your parents (especially your father) or your spouse (especially the husband). People who advocate true, Biblical repentance and evidence of changed lives (of pastors and congregants) are accused of “judging” and called “legalists.” Their favorite rejoinder to critics of their pastors is “touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm” and accuse them of being Satanic enemies of the mighty work that they are doing in changing lives and reaching the lost.

As far as broken people going to Jesus Christ … well not all the broken people went to Christ. Lots of them went to the Pharisees, Saducees, scribes, and particularly the false messiahs. The latter group in particular, the false messiahs, were not concerned about people’s spiritual needs but their carnal ones … to liberate Israel from Roman rule so that the Jews would have more political and religious freedom, more economic prosperity, and in particular would be freed from the shame of being the people of God yet living under political domination. So, the people who were broken in a worldly manner sought worldly cures. It was the people who were broken spiritually and wanted their sins forgiven who sought Jesus Christ but endured with Him until the end. (Again, lots of people followed Jesus Christ for the wrong reasons, and Jesus Christ did not commit Himself to them, but gave them hard teachings to drive them off.) Meanwhile, the people who just wanted to defeat Rome abandoned their false messiahs after the movements failed. Even the Pharisee Gamaliel was able to recognize this in Acts.

So, the broken people who are going to what is basically a pity-party cult (one that incidentally includes a ton of female pastors, and is slowly but surely accepting homosexuality as well) … well remember Judas Iscariot. He felt human emotional grief and guilt over betraying Jesus Christ. But he responded not with Biblical repentance, but instead was driven by his human emotions to commit suicide. These people are feeling emotional grief and guilt over what they have experienced and done, but after the manner of Judas Iscariot, not of Peter. So, they are seeking a salve for their human emotions. And because the salve is not spiritual, it wears off, so people keep coming back again and again, which allows these pastors to produce an endless stream of conferences, books, videos, movies, CDs etc. It is like confession - and selling indulgences - in Roman Catholicism. In the absence of true repentance and conversion, the people just keep coming back. And a pastor who has the same shattered, dysfunctional background as they do - and especially if this pastor experienced this dysfunction after conversion and particularly after becoming a pastor is the perfect one to keep coming back to, because not having a pastor that is beyond reproach makes them feel better about themselves. And feeling better about themselves is all they are after anyway. It is an attempt to replace the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit with emotionalism and experientialism.

A pastor who is beyond reproach would make the people feel ashamed of their own sins. What they want is a pastor who will make them feel welcome and accepted because of them.

broken people were drawn to Jesus,

Can you elaborate on that… maybe some examples? I’ve heard that idea often enough but at the moment I’m not actually remembering any broken people who seemed drawn to Jesus… though often enough He went after them, Zachhaeus, Mary Magdelene, Peter (“depart from me for I am a sinful man”), woman at the well.
Maybe “broken” in the sense of repentant?

[Aaron Blumer]

broken people were drawn to Jesus,

Can you elaborate on that… maybe some examples? I’ve heard that idea often enough but at the moment I’m not actually remembering any broken people who seemed drawn to Jesus… though often enough He went after them, Zachhaeus, Mary Magdelene, Peter (“depart from me for I am a sinful man”), woman at the well.
Maybe “broken” in the sense of repentant?

The unnamed woman who washed Christ’s feet with her tears and hair qualifies as an example, maybe? And Jesus Christ did call broken people to Himself in His sermons, saying come to me all you who are weary and I will give you rest and put your yoke upon me, my burden is light. In a narrative sense the gospels focus more on the people that Jesus Christ called for His ministry (i.e. the apostles) than on the people who sought Him out, but the gospels made clear that people did seek Jesus Christ for varying motives and with a varying degree of diligence. Still, it is true that Jesus Christ was not truly, fully revealed until He was lifted up on the cross and then was resurrected from the dead. Prior to then He was probably seen as a great teacher, prophet and miracle-worker as opposed to someone who would deal with sin.

[JobK] It is more about exegetical preaching. I know of some very good and effective preachers who don’t do the exegetical/expositional style. The question is whether Ted Haggard meets the Biblical requirements for a pastor as laid out in scripture, i.e. in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9 and Titus 1:5-9.

Of course it is always more than just exegetical preaching and if you will note I stated:

Would I? No. I’ve never found Ted Haggard to be any kind of exegete so on that alone I would not be interested, never minding other reasons to consider.

However, I do disagree with your view that a minister of the word is an effective Pastor/teacher if exegesis/exposition is not a predominant feature of his teaching and worse, if he does not practice it at all. But that is another thread and discussion all together, we simply just disagree here.

As to my post, was not intended to explore the validity of Haggard’s repentance or qualification for office, rather why some people will be attracted to the ministry, good or bad, right or wrong.

Is there a sin that could be committed grievous enough to have these phonies actually step down? Haggard isn’t only an arrogant narcissist, but he has gone crazy. “ ‘If I was arrogant, I would have gotten a job in a farm bureau co-op somewhere in Iowa, changed my name and never been heard from again,’ he said.” ??????? Sounds like that would have humility to me - what he is doing, right in the shadow of his old ministry, is about the most arrogant move he could make. Sounds to me like he wants to inflict harm on New Life. Of course those who speak in the third person are ALWAYS known for their humility…. ;-)

Anyone who knows his past and chooses to attend his gathering (please don’t call it a church!) deserves what they are getting. He is proud that he “cusses” now? Maybe he should read Ephesians 4:21-32 closely and learn that there MUST be a difference between the old man and the new man.