"Is Cremation Christian"?
The article, “Is Cremation Christian?” is an excellent article that treats why the pagan practice of cremation is not Christian.
Poll Results
“Is Cremation Christian”?
Cremation is not legitimate for Christians. Votes: 1
Cremation is legitimate for Christians. Votes: 12
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? for Rajesh - Adiaphora
Do you see that some issues are “adiaphora”? ” the opinion that certain doctrines or practices in morals or religion are matters of indifference because they are neither commanded nor forbidden in the Bible.”
God has removed some matters from the domain of divine law to the domain of adiaphora, but adiaphora (in abstracto) may cease to be adiaphora (in concreto) under certain circumstances (e.g., when holding a life insurance policy springs from lack of trust in God; when smoking injures health; when drinking exceeds moderation; when immersion in Baptism is defended as the correct mode; when cremation is an expression of atheism).
[Darrell McCarthy]No, I do not believe that “God has removed some matters from the domain of divine law to the domain of adiaphora” … etc. God has a will about everything. I am not interested in further discussion along this line.? for Rajesh - Adiaphora
Do you see that some issues are “adiaphora”? ” the opinion that certain doctrines or practices in morals or religion are matters of indifference because they are neither commanded nor forbidden in the Bible.”
God has removed some matters from the domain of divine law to the domain of adiaphora, but adiaphora (in abstracto) may cease to be adiaphora (in concreto) under certain circumstances (e.g., when holding a life insurance policy springs from lack of trust in God; when smoking injures health; when drinking exceeds moderation; when immersion in Baptism is defended as the correct mode; when cremation is an expression of atheism).
[RajeshG]God has a will about everything.
Really? How do you know that? That’s a pretty definitive statement. Unless you have some biblical grounds for that claim, I recommend being careful about how you form your positions on scripture.
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]Really? How do you know that? That’s a pretty definitive statement. Unless you have some biblical grounds for that claim, I recommend being careful about how you form your positions on scripture.
You know the Bible. You have read it. You have come to your positions. If you are not interested in actual discussion of the Bible on the subject of this thread, how about just moving on to other threads and discussing there what you want to discuss? In any case, I do not have anything further to discuss along the lines of adiaphora, etc.
Hopefully we can fellowship better in heaven, because I’m confident we will both be there. Until then, I hope someday God opens your eyes to the needless and harmful division you are creating in the body by your novel hermeneutic, instead of allowing differences in opinions on matters that are unequivocally ambiguous to exist with a spirit of unity. My time will be better spent discussing theological matters that have weight. I was interested in your comments about the mind of God, but you lost me when you said that God has an opinion on everything, and your attitude here is one that does nothing but drive people away. Thank you for sharing your position here as thoroughly as you have. If nothing else, it will help me understand others if I ever have conversation with someone who thinks the way you think.
Your brother,
Jason
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]I hope that someday you will come to believe the truth about this subject and categorically reject cremation as the vile practice that it is. The Lord be with you.Hopefully we can fellowship better in heaven, because I’m confident we will both be there. Until then, I hope someday God opens your eyes to the needless and harmful division you are creating in the body by your novel hermeneutic, instead of allowing differences in opinions on matters that are unequivocally ambiguous to exist with a spirit of unity. My time will be better spent discussing theological matters that have weight. I was interested in your comments about the mind of God, but you lost me when you said that God has an opinion on everything, and your attitude here is one that does nothing but drive people away. Thank you for sharing your position here as thoroughly as you have. If nothing else, it will help me understand others if I ever have conversation with someone who thinks the way you think.
Your brother,
Jason
Based on the passages that I have treated so far, we can categorize some of the biblical information pertaining to God and cremation in the following ways:
1. Were not and could not have been cremated because it was impossible because divine prophecy of their burials had to be fulfilled: Abraham; Jeroboam’s one son who was the only one who had something good in him toward God; and, Jesus.
2. Was not cremated because of direct divine act of burial: Moses
3. Could not righteously have been cremated because of divine command that they be buried: criminals who had been put to death and then hanged on a tree; Jesus (because the Jews slew Him and hanged Him on a tree [Acts 5:30; 10:39] )
[RajeshG]I don’t think LGCarpenter’s analysis of your statement was “shameful dishonesty” at all. It’s true that you didn’t use “a blank placeholder”, but if your comment is applicable about cremation, then any thinking person would also consider your understanding to also apply to any other subject that’s not mentioned in Scripture. I was going to quote your comment as ask you to prove that “airplane travel” is acceptable to God, so I also had the same impression of your comment as LGCarpenter had.Wow! Such shameful dishonesty: (1) pull a statement out of its context; (2) remove the word that was in the sentence; (3) put in a blank placeholder; and (4) claim that the doctored statement of the original that was in a specific context is what someone believes and would support.
Any honest person can see from my original paragraph below that I did not say any such thing as a general statement:
I know you’ve used the first verse of Amos 2 to declare that cremation is wrong, but the Bible doesn’t give us the full circumstances of why Moab would be punished for burning bones. Moab’s actions were certainly done in an entirely different context that the present day process of cremation, so I don’t think we can use Amos 2 to refer to cremation. Digging up a grave to show disrespect to an enemy is entirely different from reducing the body of a loved one to ash in order to save on funeral expense and to save on land usage.
(Considering the financial resources and land resources that are saved by cremation, one could even say that cremation is a sign of good stewardship of the resources God has entrusted us with.)
[RajeshG]Has God made known to us His will about everything?God has a will about everything.
Wow! Such shameful dishonesty: (1) pull a statement out of its context; (2) remove the word that was in the sentence; (3) put in a blank placeholder; and (4) claim that the doctored statement of the original that was in a specific context is what someone believes and would support.
You misunderstand, Rajesh. The point is for you to consider your position logically and follow it to its natural conclusion. Let’s use Kevin’s example:
“Those who advocate that [traveling in an airplane] is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.”
Scripture contains many mentions of traveling all through scripture, however, It nowhere even mentions travel by airplane. How do I know that God approves? If the Bible doesn’t say God approves, by your logic, it is a sin, isn’t it?
This is the same logic, as I understand it, that you are applying to the topic of dead body disposal.
Mr. LaVern G. Carpenter
Proverbs 3:1-12
You’ve failed to convince me and I view your hermetic as wrong
By ending the first book of the Bible with 2 verses about the steps that Joseph took to ensure that his bones would ultimately be buried in the Promised Land, the Spirit instructs us about the importance of the final disposition of Joseph’s bones:
Gen. 50:25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
26 So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
The Spirit directs our attention to Joseph’s bones again in the Exodus:
Exod. 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
He later makes explicit what Joseph had desired would be done with his bones in the Promised Land:
Josh. 24:32 And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver: and it became the inheritance of the children of Joseph.
Remarkably, He directs our attention twice in the NT to the importance of Joseph’s bones, once implicitly and once explicitly:
Acts 7:15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
Heb. 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
For our profit, the Spirit has recorded information pertaining to the final disposition of Joseph’s bones in 5 books of the Bible that were written by 4 different authors of Scripture!
Moreover, this revelation climaxes with explicit teaching that Joseph is an exemplar for NT believers of faith in God through what he directed would be done with his bones concerning their final disposition.
Like Joseph, Christians display faith in God that pleases Him when they choose to have their bodies buried, which ensures that their bones are not destroyed by any man-made processes.
Rajesh am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that Joseph gave instructions regarding his bones because burial is the correct way to handle a deceased person?
[josh p]Joseph expressed faith that God would deliver the Israelites some day and take them out of Egypt and to the Promised Land (Gen. 48:21; 50:23-24; Exod. 13:19). Secondarily, his commandment concerning his bones shows that he desired that his bones be buried in the Promised Land.Rajesh am I understanding you correctly? Are you suggesting that Joseph gave instructions regarding his bones because burial is the correct way to handle a deceased person?
He could have made things easier for them by giving commandment that they burn his bones to powder(?) or ashes(?) immediately or soon after they had been brought out of Egypt and just carry his remains in that form the rest of the way to the Promised Land to be buried there. That would have spared them the difficulty of having to transport his bones (perhaps in [?] his coffin [Gen. 50:26] ) all the way to the desired buryingplace. If, as some assert, the Israelites believed that cremation was also acceptable to God and practiced it as well as burial, there would not have been any problem with his instructing them to have done so.
He did not do so because there is no evidence in Scripture that cremation was ever acceptable either to God or to His people. Joseph did not want his bones to be destroyed by any human actions.
Moreover, Joseph already knew from Abraham’s being buried according to the promise and prophecy given by God and from his own burying of his father Jacob in the family buryingplace according to his father’s commandment (Gen. 47:29-30; 49:29-32; 50:5-13) that being buried was the will of God for His own.
[RajeshG]One thing that strikes me in the account of Joseph is the prime importance in the will of God of the “family buryingplace.” My older brother is buried in the same cemetery as my parents and my mom’s parents and my mom’s grandparents. Yet still, that situation is not the same as what was practiced by God’s people in the OT, where the grave was one that could be entered over and over by multiple generations and have the bones of the relatives be gathered together. They didn’t dig multiple 6-foot-deep holes, put the people in, and then cover the hole up, never to touch the bones again. Burying people the way we do today is not reflective of the will for God for how Old Testament people buried their dead.Moreover, Joseph already knew from Abraham’s being buried according to the promise and prophecy given by God and from his own burying of his father Jacob in the family buryingplace according to his father’s commandment (Gen. 47:29-30; 49:29-32; 50:5-13) that being buried was the will of God for His own.
[Kevin Miller]Burying people the way we do today is not reflective of the will for God for how Old Testament people buried their dead.
You are mistaken.
“Outside Jerusalem was a tract of land set side for ‘the graves of the common people’ (2 Ki. 23:6; Je. 26:23). This, doubtless, was for simple interments, and was paralleled by similar cemeteries at other towns” (New Bible Dictionary, 2nd ed, 152).
“Beyond question graves among ancient Jews were often simply dug in the earth, as they are with us, and as they are with Jews at Jerus and elsewhere in the East today.” (ISBE, 1:530).”
Matthew 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in.
Nolland on Matthew 27:7 comments,
“Since cemeteries were by nature ritually unclean, what better use could there be for ritually unclean money than the purchase of a cemetery? And who has greater need of a cemetery than those who are away from their homes and families when they die in Jerusalem?” (NIGTC: Matthew, 1154).
Burial in the ground, as we do it, was commonplace in ancient Israel. Those who had greater means or were people of higher status or both typically had sepulchres, but common people were buried in the ground the same as we do. We know, therefore, that burials took various forms among the Jews.
The key point is that burial puts the body, especially the bones, intact into the ground but cremation vilely destroys the body, especially the bones; what is done after cremation is irrelevant.
[RajeshG]Well, does the Bible actually make clear that God is pleased with all the different forms that burial may take? After all, the potter’s field was purchased by the same people who crucified Jesus. Those people aren’t exactly high on the list of people who do things that please God.You are mistaken.
“Outside Jerusalem was a tract of land set side for ‘the graves of the common people’ (2 Ki. 23:6; Je. 26:23). This, doubtless, was for simple interments, and was paralleled by similar cemeteries at other towns” (New Bible Dictionary, 2nd ed, 152).
“Beyond question graves among ancient Jews were often simply dug in the earth, as they are with us, and as they are with Jews at Jerus and elsewhere in the East today.” (ISBE, 1:530).”
Matthew 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in.
Nolland on Matthew 27:7 comments,
“Since cemeteries were by nature ritually unclean, what better use could there be for ritually unclean money than the purchase of a cemetery? And who has greater need of a cemetery than those who are away from their homes and families when they die in Jerusalem?” (NIGTC: Matthew, 1154).
Burial in the ground, as we do it, was commonplace in ancient Israel. Those who had greater means or were people of higher status or both typically had sepulchres, but common people were buried in the ground the same as we do. We know, therefore, that burials took various forms among the Jews.
The key point is that burial puts the body, especially the bones, intact into the ground but cremation vilely destroys the body, especially the bones; what is done after cremation is irrelevant.
I’m not sure why you think the key point is just that the bones are put in the ground when the accounts of Abraham and Joseph make clear that there is a family significance to burials that God approves of. Even the purchase of the potter’s field shows the significance of family since the field was for strangers in the land who had no family that could be found.
[Kevin Miller]Because Scripture shows that “family significance” (whatever you actually mean by that phrase here) is not a universal or required aspect of burial. God could have buried Moses with his relatives but He chose not to. Jesus was not buried with any relatives of His.
I’m not sure why you think the key point is just that the bones are put in the ground when the accounts of Abraham and Joseph make clear that there is a family significance to burials that God approves of. Even the purchase of the potter’s field shows the significance of family since the field was for strangers in the land who had no family that could be found.
Tonight, I posted elsewhere the following analysis of Ezekiel 39.
The text below provides in a modified format the verses and the notes that I provided in that analysis.
Ezekiel 39: A Test Case for Certain Notions about Cremation versus BurialEzek. 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
—This passage is divine prophecy in a prophetic book of Scripture—it is not a narrative passage.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
—God will employ birds of prey and beasts of the field to devour the multitudes of people on whom He will render divine judgment.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
—There will be such an abundance of wood available from the weapons of the slain that the Israelites will burn them for 7 years.
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
—Because of the abundance of that flammable material, the Israelites will not take any wood out of the field or cut it down from the forests. This statement shows that the Israelites did both of those things in other circumstances in which they needed to burn things.
A Profound Divine Emphasis on Burial
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
—God Himself will provide graves for Gog and all his multitude. Even though there will be an abundance of wood available that could be used for cremating these people, God has ordained that they all will be buried and not cremated. Clearly, a supposed lack of wood that would have been necessary for cremation will not at all be the reason why these multitudes of humans will be buried.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
—For seven months, the Israelites will bury these multitudes of people so that the land will be cleansed. Burial of their divinely executed bodies is what will cleanse the land.
13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.
—All the Israelites will be active in burying them. Their doing so will be to their renown! Burying dead bodies of divinely executed people will bring divine commendation to all those who do that burying!
14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
—For the second time, the passage states that burying the dead bodies is what will be done to cleanse the land.
15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man’s bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
—Even a single remaining bone of a human will be and must be buried.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
—In order for the land to be cleansed, all the bones of all the divinely executed people will have to be buried. This third statement of that truth profoundly emphasizes the importance of burial of the bones of divinely executed people.
This analysis does not support several claims made by others in this thread concerning burial by Israelites and by God.
There will be no shortage of wood for cremation on this occasion. Nonetheless, God has ordained that there will be no cremation—all the multitudes will still be buried, including all remaining bones of any humans. Such burial of those bones will be necessary in order for the land to be cleansed.
Cremation of those bones will not cleanse the land. By the direct ordination of God, multitudes will be buried in order to cleanse the land.
This passage proves conclusively that burial is the will of God even for vast hordes of unbelievers even when there will be far more wood available than would be needed to cremate all of them.
There is zero biblical basis for any Christian to support cremation.
[Kevin Miller]RajeshG wrote:
If these people were so wicked that they devotedly burned living people in fire, there is no difficulty understanding that they also burned the dead bodies of people in fire. God did not need to mention cremation or condemn it because He mentioned something far worse that was exceedingly similar to it and because He denounced in the strongest possible terms that exceedingly wicked practice of the wicked peoples in the Promised Land.
[The following is a comment made by Kevin Miller that was made in the other thread.]
This is a real stretch and a huge leap of logic. You’re basically saying that because God condemns murder by fire, God must also condemn cremation. How is it that you figure cremation is “exceedingly similar” to murder?
Kevin Miller - Fri, 07/22/2022 - 1:52am
RajeshG wrote:
First, the evil Philistines hanged the body of Saul to a wall and it remained there all night, which was contrary to the Law that God gave to Israel:
1 Sam. 31:8 And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa.
9 And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.
10 And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.
11 And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul;
12 All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.
13 And they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.
[The following statements are comments from Kevin Miller to what I wrote above in the other thread.]
So in verse 12, the valiant men basically cremated the bodies and then buried the remains. Was it acceptable to God for them to burn the bodies first before burying the remains? The passage contains no condemnation of the burning of the bodies.
[RajeshG]Wasn’t the burial of Moses a one-of-a-kind situation? So the burial of Moses really wouldn’t apply to everyone. Also, I do believe that Jesus would have been buried with Joseph if Joseph’s tomb had been in Jerusalem, but Jesus had to be buried that same day since he hung on a tree, so the burial of Jesus was also an exception.Because Scripture shows that “family significance” (whatever you actually mean by that phrase here) is not a universal or required aspect of burial. God could have buried Moses with his relatives but He chose not to. Jesus was not buried with any relatives of His.
I could give example after example of people being buried with family members, so if examples are the standard one is using to show God’s acceptance (and that seems to be the standard you’ve been using), then I would think the Biblical examples of family burial would be more significant than a couple examples of exceptions.
Personally, I don’t think examples of something in the Bible make a strong enough case to say an activity is “universal or required,” Many things we do today were not even known about in Bible times, so we can’t really say the way things were done 2000 or more years ago is the “universal or required” way.
[RajeshG]I also found it interesting to read what the Smith’s Bible Commentary had to say about these verses:Kevin Miller - Fri, 07/22/2022 - 1:52am
RajeshG wrote:
First, the evil Philistines hanged the body of Saul to a wall and it remained there all night, which was contrary to the Law that God gave to Israel:
1 Sam. 31:8 And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa.
9 And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.
10 And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan.
11 And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul;
12 All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.
13 And they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.
[The following statements are comments from Kevin Miller to what I wrote above in the other thread.]
So in verse 12, the valiant men basically cremated the bodies and then buried the remains. Was it acceptable to God for them to burn the bodies first before burying the remains? The passage contains no condemnation of the burning of the bodies.
The inhabitants of Jabeshgilead [Now Jabesh-gilead was over on the other side of the Jordan River.] when they heard what they had done to the body of Saul; The valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and they came to Jabesh, and they burnt them there ( 1 Samuel 31:11-12 ).
So they cremated Saul and his sons.
Now occasionally people ask me my opinion of cremation, and it is just this, as far as I’m concerned, cremation is only a speeding up of the natural processes. Cremation will do in thirty-seven minutes, what eremacausis will do in thirty-seven years. It’s just the speeding up the processes of the destruction of this body. Ultimately, your body even in the grave is gonna deteriorate and go back to dust. Cremation only hastens the process.
I see no spiritual kind of a reason for not being cremated. I don’t think that it’s wrong if a person wants cremation. I don’t see anything wrong with cremating a person’s body. I don’t see any spiritual significance at all to the whole thing. Saul and his sons were all cremated, and the Bible doesn’t say anything against it, or “Oh, that was so horrible,” or “that was so wrong,” or whatever. So actually it’s only a shell, it’s only a tent that has been worn out and is no longer of any value.
What they do to my body after my spirit moves out, I could care less. If my cornea in my eyes are of any value to anybody, they’re welcome. If my kidneys are of any value, they’re welcome. If my heart is of any value, they’re welcome. They can do whatever they want to this old body once my spirit moves out, I could care less. If they want to save money and cremate the thing, fine. Because I’m not gonna be around to worry about it. I’m gonna be so stoked with the new model that’s been given to me, that I have no desire to hang on to the remnants of this old thing. Appreciate the body that God has given to me, I appreciate the good years, but this old house isn’t what it used to be. As time goes on, it’s becoming less all the time.
[Kevin Miller]This is part of the unbiblical thinking that has led many to accept this vile practice. Saying that the body is a “shell” that “is no longer of any value” is a perverse understanding of the value of a human body.I also found it interesting to read what the Smith’s Bible Commentary had to say about these verses:
The inhabitants of Jabeshgilead [Now Jabesh-gilead was over on the other side of the Jordan River.] when they heard what they had done to the body of Saul; The valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and they came to Jabesh, and they burnt them there ( 1 Samuel 31:11-12 ).
So they cremated Saul and his sons.
Now occasionally people ask me my opinion of cremation, and it is just this, as far as I’m concerned, cremation is only a speeding up of the natural processes. Cremation will do in thirty-seven minutes, what eremacausis will do in thirty-seven years. It’s just the speeding up the processes of the destruction of this body. Ultimately, your body even in the grave is gonna deteriorate and go back to dust. Cremation only hastens the process.
I see no spiritual kind of a reason for not being cremated. I don’t think that it’s wrong if a person wants cremation. I don’t see anything wrong with cremating a person’s body. I don’t see any spiritual significance at all to the whole thing. Saul and his sons were all cremated, and the Bible doesn’t say anything against it, or “Oh, that was so horrible,” or “that was so wrong,” or whatever. So actually it’s only a shell, it’s only a tent that has been worn out and is no longer of any value.
What they do to my body after my spirit moves out, I could care less. If my cornea in my eyes are of any value to anybody, they’re welcome. If my kidneys are of any value, they’re welcome. If my heart is of any value, they’re welcome. They can do whatever they want to this old body once my spirit moves out, I could care less. If they want to save money and cremate the thing, fine. Because I’m not gonna be around to worry about it. I’m gonna be so stoked with the new model that’s been given to me, that I have no desire to hang on to the remnants of this old thing. Appreciate the body that God has given to me, I appreciate the good years, but this old house isn’t what it used to be. As time goes on, it’s becoming less all the time.
The natural deterioration of the body is God’s business. Destroying the body through cremation is arrogating authority that God has not given to humans.
The bodies of Saul and his sons were burned but their bones were preserved. God never says that what the men of Jabesh-Gilead did was acceptable. David does not commend them for burning the bodies. He only commends them for burying them.
[Kevin Miller]Does the Bible say that Joseph’s tomb (if he even had one) or the place where he was buried in the ground was not in Jerusalem?Wasn’t the burial of Moses a one-of-a-kind situation? So the burial of Moses really wouldn’t apply to everyone. Also, I do believe that Jesus would have been buried with Joseph if Joseph’s tomb had been in Jerusalem, but Jesus had to be buried that same day since he hung on a tree, so the burial of Jesus was also an exception.
It is my understanding that modern cremation burns the body and then grinds the bones to powder. If it were to leave the bones in tact and not grind them and then those bones were buried, would that be acceptable? Personally I would be less bothered by that than by embalming.
This historical evidence proves that cremation was not unknown or unpracticed in the ancient Near East.
It also shows that the arguments that have been used against me to assert that I have not handled the Scripture properly because of my supposed lack of proper attention to the culture and geography of the ancient Near East were invalid arguments.
[RajeshG]Can you show me some Scripture that tells us the value of the human body after man’s spirit has left it? When man’s spirit leaves, the Holy Spirit would also be leaving, so one can’t use “temple of God” arguments to say the body has value after death.This is part of the unbiblical thinking that has led many to accept this vile practice. Saying that the body is a “shell” that “is no longer of any value” is a perverse understanding of the value of a human body.
The natural deterioration of the body is God’s business. Destroying the body through cremation is arrogating authority that God has not given to humans.Can you show me any Scripture to back up your claims that man is not allowed to hasten the process? You’re just making an assertion here without any Bible evidence.
The bodies of Saul and his sons were burned but their bones were preserved. God never says that what the men of Jabesh-Gilead did was acceptable. David does not commend them for burning the bodies. He only commends them for burying them.But God doesn’t indicate it was unacceptable either, and David doesn’t tell them that burning the bodies was unacceptable. This would have been a perfect place for God to have shown his utter disgust with cremation and God chose not to do so. If it is such a “vile practice,” why didn’t God condemn it here?
[RajeshG]Considering the importance the Bible places on family burial, we can be quite sure Joseph’s tomb was not in Jerusalem, or Jesus would have been buried there.Does the Bible say that Joseph’s tomb (if he even had one) or the place where he was buried in the ground was not in Jerusalem?
[RajeshG]This historical evidence simply shows that God could have easily put a condemnation of cremation as a vile practice into the Mosaic Law if God had chosen to do so. God chose not to do so.This historical evidence proves that cremation was not unknown or unpracticed in the ancient Near East.
It also shows that the arguments that have been used against me to assert that I have not handled the Scripture properly because of my supposed lack of proper attention to the culture and geography of the ancient Near East were invalid arguments.
[Kevin Miller]Backing up even further, you are assuming that Joseph was buried. In a previous exchange, you asserted that Lev. 10 merely says how Nadab and Abihu were killed and implied that does not establish anything definitively about the final disposition of their bodies.Considering the importance the Bible places on family burial, we can be quite sure Joseph’s tomb was not in Jerusalem, or Jesus would have been buried there.
Given that is your approach to what happened to Israelites who died, how can you be “quite sure” about anything concerning whether Joseph was even buried?
[Kevin Miller]God teaches us in many passages in both Testaments that He has not given us in Scripture exhaustive information about the sinful practices of human beings.This historical evidence simply shows that God could have easily put a condemnation of cremation as a vile practice into the Mosaic Law if God had chosen to do so. God chose not to do so.
Yes, He chose not to put anything about cremation explicitly in the Mosaic Law because it was unthinkable based on what He did provide them with in the Law.
Moreover, God’s people had prophets who knew God supernaturally and gave His people clear direction long before they had any written Scripture. It is impossible that none of them ever knew what did and did not please God concerning the final disposition of dead bodies.
Moses was one such prophet. Moses knew exactly what would and would not please God about the final disposition of human bodies. What we see uniformly in Scripture about His people being buried and not cremated attests to the guidance that he and other godly prophets have given to God’s people in that very area.
[Kevin Miller]Where does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer’s body at death?Can you show me some Scripture that tells us the value of the human body after man’s spirit has left it? When man’s spirit leaves, the Holy Spirit would also be leaving, so one can’t use “temple of God” arguments to say the body has value after death.
[RajeshG]Burning living people in fire as offerings to false gods did not just kill those people by fire—it also destroyed their bodies after they had died and did so by burning those dead bodies until they were reduced to ashes.
[JD Miller]No, I do not believe that it would be acceptable to destroy the body by burning but leave the bones intact. Having said that, it seems that you might agree with me that it is absolutely essential that the bones of dead humans not be destroyed by any man-made means.It is my understanding that modern cremation burns the body and then grinds the bones to powder. If it were to leave the bones in tact and not grind them and then those bones were buried, would that be acceptable? Personally I would be less bothered by that than by embalming.
Given that Heb. 11:22 reveals divine commendation of the faith revealed in Joseph’s giving charge to ensure that his bones would be buried in the Promised Land even though he knew that his body would be (and was) embalmed beforehand in Egypt, I do not take a position of being strongly against embalming.
[RajeshG]What kind of nonsense question is this? What purpose would be served by the Holy Spirit maintaining residence in a lifeless body? How can you even think such a thing might take place? If you think the Holy Spirit actually stays in the body and gets buried with the body, then you would have to be the one to give Bible support for that position. It doesn’t make sense to me at all.Where does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer’s body at death?
[Kevin Miller]Is that so?What kind of nonsense question is this? What purpose would be served by the Holy Spirit maintaining residence in a lifeless body? How can you even think such a thing might take place? If you think the Holy Spirit actually stays in the body and gets buried with the body, then you would have to be the one to give Bible support for that position. It doesn’t make sense to me at all.
You made the assertion. You have to prove it.
[RajeshG]I never made the assumption Joseph was buried. You’re putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting me. All i said was that Joseph’s tomb was not in Jerusalem. I didn’t say it was anywhere else or that it even existed. All I said was that it wasn’t in Jerusalem.Backing up even further, you are assuming that Joseph was buried. In a previous exchange, you asserted that Lev. 10 merely says how Nadab and Abihu were killed and implied that does not establish anything definitively about the final disposition of their bodies.
Given that is your approach to what happened to Israelites who died, how can you be “quite sure” about anything concerning whether Joseph was even buried?
[RajeshG]Now you’re just being silly. If you don’t see the Holy Spirit leaving the body at death, then explain how you come to that position from Scripture. I don’t see any Scriptural support for the Holy Spirit staying in the body. If you think such support exists, then that is your assertion which you must prove.Is that so?
You made the assertion. You have to prove it.
[Kevin Miller]Ad hominem (“Now you’re just being silly.”) is not argumentation. This is exactly what you said:Now you’re just being silly. If you don’t see the Holy Spirit leaving the body at death, then explain how you come to that position from Scripture. I don’t see any Scriptural support for the Holy Spirit staying in the body. If you think such support exists, then that is your assertion which you must prove.
When man’s spirit leaves, the Holy Spirit would also be leaving, so one can’t use “temple of God” arguments to say the body has value after death. [bold added to original]
You made the assertion. Prove it.
Discussion