"Is Cremation Christian"?
The article, “Is Cremation Christian?” is an excellent article that treats why the pagan practice of cremation is not Christian.
Poll Results
“Is Cremation Christian”?
Cremation is not legitimate for Christians. Votes: 1
Cremation is legitimate for Christians. Votes: 12
- 192 views
[Kevin Miller]What is influencing these “Western sources” to believe it does not matter to God? According to the article, it is the heathen notions about the resurrection. Isn’t that what the article is stating? So doesn’t it all come back to the pagan notions anyway?
So, does a vile false belief related to a practice actually make that practice inherently wrong even when the practice is later being done without any intention of supporting the wrong belief? I just looked up the practice of laying flowers by a graveside. According to one source, that practiced was started thousands of years ago by the Greeks, who believed that if flowers rooted themselves at the grave site, that meant the dead person had found peace. That’s definitely a false belief, so are people today doing something unacceptable to God when they lay flowers at grave sites?
I think that you know very well what I am getting at concerning “Western sources.” If you really do not know, just look at the sources such as MacArthur and others cited in this thread that argue that there is no problem with Christians practicing cremation, etc.
[RajeshG]No, I don’t want to just assume what you are getting at. That’s why I was asking you questions about your comment and it’s relationship to the info written in the article you linked. The article definitely linked the promotion of cremation to pagan ideas about resurrection.I think that you know very well what I am getting at concerning “Western sources.”
The article even had a section about the body being the “seed” for the resurrection. The article said “The physical body is called the seed for the resurrection body. When planted, a seed decomposes, and the new plant comes forth. The Bible uses this to illustrate resurrection.” In my opinion, this statement goes beyond what the illustration of the seed is actually saying. 1 Cor 15:36 says, “Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.” The passage is discussing what type of body the resurrected body will be and that our earthly, physical body has to die before we are given a new body body. It’s not trying to make a command that the body has to be “planted” in the ground before it dies and then gets resurrected. After all, that IS what happens to the actual seed. It gets planted in the ground, and THEN it dies, and after it dies in the ground, it gets new life. I don’t think God wants us to hyper-focus on every little aspect of an illustration in order to come up with some prescriptive command from that illustration.
Right after quoting 1 Cor 15:35-44, the article states, “When we bury a Christian loved one, we are planting the seed for the resurrection body!” However, the passage doesn’t describe burial as what plants the seed for the resurrection. Death itself is what plants the seed and the comparisons given in the passage between the physical state and the resurrection state bear that out. Our bodies die(are sown) in corruption and are raised in incorruption. Our bodies die(are sown) in dishonor and are raised in glory. Our bodies die(are sown) in weakness and are raised in power. Our bodies die(are sown) a natural body and are raised a spiritual body. The effort to draw a lesson about burial from this passage which speaks of death and resurrection is going beyond what the passage teaches.
If you really do not know, just look at your own comments, the other comments on this thread (obviously not mine), and other Christian sources such as MacArthur, etc. cited in this thread that all argue that there is no problem with Christians practicing cremation, etc.Well, based on my own comments and upon others in this thread, I’d say that the “Western sources” are promoting the idea that since cremation is not explicitly prohibited in Scripture, then it wouldn’t make sense for someone to declare definitively that God has a problem with it. If people in other countries are being influenced by that type of “Western source,” then that shows a study of God’s Word and a desire to only reject that which God has actually rejected.
[Kevin Miller]My comments about my understanding of what has taken place among believers in my country of origin do not have anything directly to do with what was said in the article in the OP.No, I don’t want to just assume what you are getting at. That’s why I was asking you questions about your comment and it’s relationship to the info written in the article you linked. The article definitely linked the promotion of cremation to pagan ideas about resurrection.
[Kevin Miller]I do not think that you understand correctly the significance of Deut. 21:22-23 as being divinely commanded in the Law of God.We’ve already had the Mosaic Law discussion. The fact that an action was commanded for Israel does not automatically make that action a command to believers today.
Deut. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
The Law that God gave to Israel was entirely righteous and superior to all the laws of all the nations everywhere in the world:
Deut. 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Because Deut. 21:22-23 was part of the Law that God gave to His people, we know that no other laws or practices of any other nations or peoples that differed from this Law were righteous. The only practice that was righteous and acceptable to God for what was to be done with the bodies of people who had been hanged—whether it was done by Israelites or by any other people in the world—was burial.
Any other practice of any people or nation anywhere was unrighteous and unacceptable to God. Those nations that cremated the bodies of people who had been hanged did what was unrighteous and unacceptable to God.
The worldwide superiority and righteousness of Deut. 21:23 proves that cremation was not acceptable to God.
Moreover, Scripture teaches us more about the worldwide superiority of Deut. 21:23:
Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law of God that He gave to Israel was right, true, good, holy, and just!
Burial as mandated in Deut. 21:23 was righteous, right, true, good, holy, and just.
[RajeshG]Sure, the command to bury people who had been hanged meant that those people couldn’t be cremated. That command gave no instruction regarding people who died of old age or of any other cause.I do not think that you understand correctly the significance of Deut. 21:22-23 as being divinely commanded in the Law of God.
Deut. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
The Law that God gave to Israel was entirely righteous and superior to all the laws of all the nations everywhere in the world:
Deut. 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Because Deut. 21:22-23 was part of the Law that God gave to His people, we know that no other laws or practices of any other nations or peoples that differed from this Law were righteous. The only practice that was righteous and acceptable to God for what was to be done with the bodies of people who had been hanged—whether it was done by Israelites or by any other people in the world—was burial.
Any other practice of any people or nation anywhere was unrighteous and unacceptable to God. Those nations that cremated the bodies of people who had been hanged did what was unrighteous and unacceptable to God.
The worldwide superiority and righteousness of Deut. 21:23 proves that cremation was not acceptable to God.
Moreover, Scripture teaches us more about the worldwide superiority of Deut. 21:23:
Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law of God that He gave to Israel was right, true, good, holy, and just!
Burial as mandated in Deut. 21:23 was righteous, right, true, good, holy, and just.
You wrote this post in response to my comment that “The fact that an action was commanded for Israel does not automatically make that action a command to believers today.” Are you now claiming that this principle of the superiority of the Mosaic Law also applies to every other command given in the Mosaic law? For example, the prohibition against wearing mixed fabrics was also part of “The Law of God which He gave to Israel” which was “right, true, good, holy, and just.” Are you now saying that the superiority of the Mosaic Law means that believers today have to abide by the mixed fabric restriction? If not, then I don’t understand why you would use this superiority principle for one command and not for all the others. Would the prohibition against mixed fabrics not be as “righteous, right, true, good, holy, and just” as the command to bury hanged people?
Rajesh, Is it a sin to carry out capital punishment by any means other than hanging?
[Larry]This is a different discussion so I am not sure why you are asking this question in this thread.Rajesh, Is it a sin to carry out capital punishment by any means other than hanging?
Deut. 21:22 did not command them to hang people; Deut. 21:23 commanded what they had to whenever they chose to hang people, regardless of whether hanging was the means of capital punishment for those people or not.
The Law itself commanded the use of various forms of capital punishment. Beyond saying that, a discussion of what are and aren’t righteous means of capital punishment today is far beyond the scope of the subject of this thread.
This is a different discussion so I am not sure why you are asking this question in this thread.
I would think it would be obvious why I am asking it in this thread. The command to hang and the command to bury are right next to each other. You have said one is a mandate. On what basis is the other not a mandate?
This goes to the hermeneutical issue. You might be right on cremation. You are certainly in the majority historically, at least in the West. However, there are several issues (some of which have already been pointed out):
First, the command to bury in Deut is part of the OT Law. We are no longer under the Law. That is not the same as saying it is not profitable. It is profitable, but how and why are a deeper discussion. You cannot select parts of the Law to put the believer under without putting him under the whole Law.
Second, the command to bury is right next to the command to hang someone. On what basis would we demand burial while permitting the electric chair, firing squad, gas chamber, etc? If one is a command, then certainly the other is.
Third, the command to bury in Deut 21 is with respect to those who were hanged because they were guilty of a capital crime. There is no hermeneutical basis in that passage to apply it to anyone else, such as those who died accidentally, those who died of murder, or those who died of natural causes.
Again, you might be right about cremation. But your method, with respect to Deut at least, is certainly questionable at the very least.
[Larry]This is a different discussion so I am not sure why you are asking this question in this thread.
I would think it would be obvious why I am asking it in this thread. The command to hang and the command to bury are right next to each other. You have said one is a mandate. On what basis is the other not a mandate?
This goes to the hermeneutical issue. You might be right on cremation. You are certainly in the majority historically, at least in the West. However, there are several issues (some of which have already been pointed out):
First, the command to bury in Deut is part of the OT Law. We are no longer under the Law. That is not the same as saying it is not profitable. It is profitable, but how and why are a deeper discussion. You cannot select parts of the Law to put the believer under without putting him under the whole Law.
Second, the command to bury is right next to the command to hang someone. On what basis would we demand burial while permitting the electric chair, firing squad, gas chamber, etc? If one is a command, then certainly the other is.
Third, the command to bury in Deut 21 is with respect to those who were hanged because they were guilty of a capital crime. There is no hermeneutical basis in that passage to apply it to anyone else, such as those who died accidentally, those who died of murder, or those who died of natural causes.
Again, you might be right about cremation. But your method, with respect to Deut at least, is certainly questionable at the very least.
I am surprised to see how you are handling this passage. There is no command in the text to hang anyone.
Deut. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
“Thou hang him on a tree” is not a command; it is part of the conditional statement in 21:22 that begins with “if.”
There are 2 commands in 21:23; the first is that his body cannot remain all night on the tree. The second command is that they must bury him that day.
[Larry]I am not selecting parts of the Law and putting believers under it (note carefully the verb tenses that I used in my treatment of it earlier). My point so far is that this command shows that when this command was given to God’s people before they entered the Promised Land, cremation was unrighteous and unacceptable to God regardless of who did it anywhere in the world when the one being cremated had been hanged.First, the command to bury in Deut is part of the OT Law. We are no longer under the Law. That is not the same as saying it is not profitable. It is profitable, but how and why are a deeper discussion. You cannot select parts of the Law to put the believer under without putting him under the whole Law.
[Larry]I have not asserted that there is a hermeneutical basis in that passage to apply it to anyone else. It, however, is part of the data that must be accounted for in the larger discussion.Third, the command to bury in Deut 21 is with respect to those who were hanged because they were guilty of a capital crime. There is no hermeneutical basis in that passage to apply it to anyone else, such as those who died accidentally, those who died of murder, or those who died of natural causes.
Aren’t you playing words games a little bit here? The hanging and the burying are right beside each other and you are treating them differently. You are correct that the hanging is not an imperative form, but that is hardly relevant in the point. Would you accept the cremation of a body that was executed by the electric chair? I doubt it and when you admit that, I think you have to accept my point.
If you are backing off the idea that this is an all encompassing demand (as you seem to be in your last paragraph), then I think we can just ignore it all because there doesn’t seem to be a real point here. Your previous paragraph however states that this command shows some sort of universal view and command of God. That simply cannot be substantiate by this methodology.
If all your point is that people who were hanged for a capital crime were to be buried that day by the command of God, then fine. I think we all here can agree to that. But that in no way provides any instruction for people who were not hanged for a capital crime. So relying on this passage for anything else is incorrect.
Which brings me back to the point: You might be correct about cremation but this passage offers nothing to support you.
You are making a rather torturous argument that seems devoid of usefulness and consistency.
[Larry]No, I am not playing with words. You are not handling the text correctly. The hanging and burying are not right next to each other. They are separated by a command that says that the body could not be left hanging on the tree all night.Aren’t you playing words games a little bit here? The hanging and the burying are right beside each other and you are treating them differently. You are correct that the hanging is not an imperative form, but that is hardly relevant in the point. If you are backing off the idea that this is an all encompassing demand (as you seem to be in your last paragraph), then I think we can just ignore it all because there doesn’t seem to be a real point here. Your previous paragraph however states that this command shows some sort of universal view and command of God. That simply cannot be substantiate by this methodology.
If all your point is that people who were hanged for a capital crime were to be buried that day by the command of God, then fine. I think we all here can agree to that. But that in no way provides any instruction for people who were not hanged for a capital crime. So relying on this passage for anything else is incorrect.
There is no command in that passage to hang anyone.
Applying the teaching of Deut. 4:5-8 about the surpassing worldwide excellence of all of God’s Law to the command to bury in Deut. 21:23 shows that the command in Deut. 21:23 to bury people who had been hanged was God’s Law that was more righteous than any law or practice in any other nation in the world that was different than what God commanded. Any nation in the world therefore that cremated those who had been hanged was engaging in a practice that was unrighteous and unacceptable to God. This command does prove that cremation of such people was wrong regardless of who did it anywhere in the world.
That is a significant point.
Either you accept that what Deut. 4:5-8 teaches about the unique excellence of all of God’s Law applies to Deut. 21:23 or you deny that what Deut. 4:5-8 teaches about the unique excellence of all of God’s Law applies to Deut. 21:23. If you choose the latter, you are denying what God says.
[Kevin Miller]Really? A thinking, ordinary Israelite would have asked why would God command that only those people were to be buried and could not be cremated but He was supposedly ok with whatever anyone else wanted to do with the dead bodies of anybody else who died.Sure, the command to bury people who had been hanged meant that those people couldn’t be cremated. That command gave no instruction regarding people who died of old age or of any other cause.
Had such a person asked Moses about that point, Moses would have told them that God promised and prophesied that Abraham the father of all believers would be buried in a good old age and was then in fact buried. Hearing that, the ordinary Israelite would have had explicit biblical basis to know that it was righteous, right, true, just, holy, and good that old people dying of natural causes be buried and not cremated.
Then when Moses would have given them the teaching of Deut. 28, that thinking Israelite would have known that denying His people burial would be God’s judgment on them if they would persist in being exceedingly wicked before Him. From that teaching, the Israelite would have rightly inferred that what God would have denied such exceedingly unjust people was what God held would have been the proper ending of their lives had they not persisted in their wickedness.
Later, that thinking Israelite would learn of God Himself burying Moses in a sepulcher and would have his understanding further confirmed that burial and not cremation was the right ending of the life of one of God’s saints.
And so forth and so forth.
Explicit revelation about the burials of Abraham (Gen. 15) and Moses (Dt. 34) in the Pentateuch shows the importance of burials for the aged.
As a non-Israelite, Eliphaz confirmed that he held the same viewpoint as God’s people who were Israelites when he counseled Job that if he would get right with God, he would “come to [his] grave in a full age” (Job 5:26; cf. Job 42:17).
Furthermore, Job provides revelation concerning the importance of burial at the opposite end of the spectrum:
Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
Job’s belief in the importance of burial extended even to one who would be stillborn (Zuck, BKC: OT, 732) or possibly died soon after birth (Andersen, TOTC: Job, 156).
Eliphaz and Job were not Israelites, and they were not under the Mosaic Law. They both strongly believed and spoke of the importance of burial.
Allowing Scripture to profit us fully from the Pentateuch and from this revelation in Job teaches us that God’s will for humans at both ends of the spectrum was burial.
[RajeshG]Suppose these hypothetical “thinking Israelites, in the course of their “so forth and so forth,” were to write down all the assumptions they then made about what God must have been intending to add, but didn’t, when the laws were actually written. What would God’s reaction be to them? I think we get a good idea in Matthew 23. Verses 27-28 say, “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.”Really? A thinking, ordinary Israelite would have asked why would God command that only those people were to be buried and could not be cremated but He was supposedly ok with whatever anyone else wanted to do with the dead bodies of anybody else who died.
Had such a person asked Moses about that point, Moses would have told them that God promised and prophesied that Abraham the father of all believers would be buried in a good old age and was then in fact buried. Hearing that, the ordinary Israelite would have had explicit biblical basis to know that it was righteous, right, true, just, holy, and good that old people dying of natural causes be buried and not cremated.
Then when Moses would have given them the teaching of Deut. 28, that thinking Israelite would have known that denying His people burial would be God’s judgment on them if they would persist in being exceedingly wicked before Him. From that teaching, the Israelite would have rightly inferred that what God would have denied such exceedingly unjust people was what God held would have been the proper ending of their lives had they not persisted in their wickedness.
Later, that thinking Israelite would learn of God Himself burying Moses in a sepulcher and would have his understanding further confirmed that burial and not cremation was the right ending of the life of one of God’s saints.
And so forth and so forth.
I’m sure the Pharisees just considered themselves to be “thinking Israelites” as they made all their extra rules and regulations.
Saying that cremation is unacceptable to God simply because we do not have examples of it in the Bible is an extra rule and regulation. Oh, we can definitely see, as I’ve said before in this thread, that God approved of burial. However, God’s approval of one form of body disposal is not a reason to think that God disapproves of any other means of body disposal.
[RajeshG]Oh, we can definitely see, as I’ve said before in this thread, that God approved of burial. However, God’s approval of one form of body disposal is not a reason to think that God disapproves of any other means of body disposal.Explicit revelation about the burials of Abraham (Gen. 15) and Moses (Dt. 34) in the Pentateuch shows the importance of burials for the aged.
As a non-Israelite, Eliphaz confirmed that he held the same viewpoint as God’s people who were Israelites when he counseled Job that if he would get right with God, he would “come to [his] grave in a full age” (Job 5:26; cf. Job 42:17).
Furthermore, Job provides revelation concerning the importance of burial at the opposite end of the spectrum:
Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
Job’s belief in the importance of burial extended even to one who would be stillborn (Zuck, BKC: OT, 732) or possibly died soon after birth (Andersen, TOTC: Job, 156).
Eliphaz and Job were not Israelites, and they were not under the Mosaic Law. They both strongly believed and spoke of the importance of burial.
Allowing Scripture to profit us fully from the Pentateuch and from this revelation in Job teaches us that God’s will for humans at both ends of the spectrum was burial.
[Kevin Miller]Suppose these hypothetical “thinking Israelites, in the course of their “so forth and so forth,” were to write down all the assumptions they then made about what God must have been intending to add, but didn’t, when the laws were actually written. What would God’s reaction be to them? I think we get a good idea in Matthew 23. Verses 27-28 say, “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people’s bones and all sorts of impurity. Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.”
I’m sure the Pharisees just considered themselves to be “thinking Israelites” as they made all their extra rules and regulations.
Saying that cremation is unacceptable to God simply because we do not have examples of it in the Bible is an extra rule and regulation. Oh, we can definitely see, as I’ve said before in this thread, that God approved of burial. However, God’s approval of one form of body disposal is not a reason to think that God disapproves of any other means of body disposal.
Ah, yes, the predictable invoking of the wickedness of those perverse unbelievers whose hearts were not toward God and doing His will …
[Kevin Miller]Wrong. When there is only one method (burial) that is ever approved in the entire Bible for the disposal of the bodies of the righteous dead, and there is fierce divine condemnation of the burning of human bones to powder, we have more than enough basis to hold that cremation is unrighteous and unacceptable to God.Oh, we can definitely see, as I’ve said before in this thread, that God approved of burial. However, God’s approval of one form of body disposal is not a reason to think that God disapproves of any other means of body disposal.
[RajeshG]Wrong. When there is only one method (burial) that is ever approved in the entire Bible for the disposal of the bodies of the righteous dead, and there is fierce divine condemnation of the burning of human bones to powder, we have more than enough basis to hold that cremation is unrighteous and unacceptable to God.
I’d like to back this out to try to understand the principle upon which you base this position. I know this is already being discussed in your other thread, but this is the better place to post this right now.
Please correct this statement if I am wrong or somehow misrepresenting you:
Principle: actions observed within a narrative are sufficient in themselves to form the basis for the determination of sin
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]Principle: actions observed within a narrative that explicitly speaks also of divine judgment (directly from God or through one of His authorized agents) of or for those actions provide biblical basis to determine what is unrighteous and unacceptable to God. Alternatively, if a passage itself does not speak of that judgment but a parallel passage does speak of that judgment or another passage in some manner speaks of or indicates the unrighteousness of those actions seen in the narrative, the same holds true.I’d like to back this out to try to understand the principle upon which you base this position. I know this is already being discussed in your other thread, but this is the better place to post this right now.
Please correct this statement if I am wrong or somehow misrepresenting you:
Principle: actions observed within a narrative are sufficient in themselves to form the basis for the determination of sin
[RajeshG]Principle: actions observed within a narrative that explicitly speaks also of divine judgment (directly from God or through one of His authorized agents) of or for those actions provide biblical basis to determine what is unrighteous and unacceptable to God. Alternatively, if a passage itself does not speak of that judgment but a parallel passage does speak of that judgment or another passage in some manner speaks of or indicates the unrighteousness of those actions, the same holds true.
Okay, so then what is your answer to Deut. 21:18-21? Do you believe God wants us to kill our stubborn and rebellious sons? If not, then why not? How are the commands in 21:18-21 different from verse 23?
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]What strange questions to be asking a NT believer. We do not live in a theocracy. Neither individual Christians nor churches have governmental authority to execute capital punishment on anyone.Okay, so then what is your answer to Deut. 21:18-21? Do you believe God wants us to kill our stubborn and rebellious sons? If not, then why not? How are the commands in 21:18-21 different from verse 23?
[RajeshG]What strange questions to be asking a NT believer. We do not live in a theocracy. Neither individual Christians nor churches have governmental authority to execute capital punishment on anyone.
And yet you claim the exact same passage, in the exact same context, as a proof text for whole-body interment as a normative requirement for all time?
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]I do not claim this passage alone as what is in Scripture that teaches us that cremation is unacceptable to God and that burial is His will for what God’s people are to do with the dead bodies of His saints today. The passage is a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God. What it teaches cannot be set aside as unimportant for us simply because it was a command to OT Israel.And yet you claim the exact same passage, in the exact same context, as a proof text for whole-body interment as a normative requirement for all time?
I don’t want to continue here because this is not the kind of conversation I want to have. My hope was that in pointing out something relatively simple it would spark a point of conversation that could be helpful for the sake of clarity. It didn’t seem to.
The point remains that you appear to have taken a specific command and made it universal. The fact that the hanging and the burying are not right next to each other is irrelevant. They are part of the same command. Even if we acknowledge that, “This command does prove that cremation of such people was wrong regardless of who did it anywhere in the world,” it does nothing to help your point about any one other than such people. You simply cannot take the narrow command and apply it universally in this manner. And if you can’t do that, then it doesn’t work for your point here. It says nothing about what God thinks about disposing the bodies of people who were not hanged, which is what you are trying to talk about.
[Larry]My mistake. I did not go back far enough in the thread.I don’t want to continue here because this is not the kind of conversation I want to have. My hope was that in pointing out something relatively simple it would spark a point of conversation that could be helpful for the sake of clarity. It didn’t seem to.
The point remains that you appear to have taken a specific command and made it universal. The fact that the hanging and the burying are not right next to each other is irrelevant. They are part of the same command. Even if we acknowledge that, “This command does prove that cremation of such people was wrong regardless of who did it anywhere in the world,” it does nothing to help your point about any one other than such people. You simply cannot take the narrow command and apply it universally in this manner. And if you can’t do that, then it doesn’t work for your point here. It says nothing about what God thinks about disposing the bodies of people who were not hanged, which is what you are trying to talk about.
[RajeshG]If Deut 21:23 is “a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God” that gives us insight into “what God’s people are to do with the dead bodies of His saints today,” Then shouldn’t we be following the full command regarding burial in this verse? The verse says, “Be sure to bury it that same day.” According to the command, burial of someone should take place the very same day that someone dies. The burial of Christ Himself also followed this pattern, so the OT command is not the only passage where we see this.I do not claim this passage alone as what is in Scripture that teaches us that cremation is unacceptable to God and that burial is His will for what God’s people are to do with the dead bodies of His saints today. The passage is a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God. What it teaches cannot be set aside as unimportant for us simply because it was a command to OT Israel.
(I’ll find it rather ironic if you answer that the same day requirement only applies to people who are hanged, since that’s already been my point about the Deuteronomy verse)
[Kevin Miller]I am all for burying people on the same day. Direct burial reduces burial cost markedly.If Deut 21:23 is “a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God” that gives us insight into “what God’s people are to do with the dead bodies of His saints today,” Then shouldn’t we be following the full command regarding burial in this verse? The verse says, “Be sure to bury it that same day.” According to the command, burial of someone should take place the very same day that someone dies. The burial of Christ Himself also followed this pattern, so the OT command is not the only passage where we see this.
(I’ll find it rather ironic if you answer that the same day requirement only applies to people who are hanged, since that’s already been my point about the Deuteronomy verse)
[RajeshG]I wasn’t asking if you were “all for” it. I was asking if the passage lets us know that any other timing is unacceptable in God’s eyes, since the command would be giving us “a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God” concerning the timing.I am all for burying people on the same day. Direct burial reduces burial cost markedly.
[Kevin Miller]I know what you were asking. Answering that question fully would require the treatment of other passages that I am not ready to treat at this time. I will address this matter later.I wasn’t asking if you were “all for” it. I was asking if the passage lets us know that any other timing is unacceptable in God’s eyes, since the command would be giving us “a revelation of the mind of God and the righteousness of God” concerning the timing.
[RajeshG]I know what you were asking. Answering that question fully would require the treatment of other passages that I am not ready to treat at this time. I will address this matter later.
That’s a cop out, RajeshG, and I think you know it. The context is clear, the commands are clear.
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]Say what you like. We will see.That’s a cop out, RajeshG, and I think you know it. The context is clear, the commands are clear.
I have already provided more than sufficient evidence from Scripture to show that the burial of the dead bodies of His saints has always been acceptable to God and approved by Him. Those who advocate that the cremation of the dead bodies of His saints is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.
Eph. 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children … 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Tellingly, they cannot provide any evidence from Scripture to support their position.
I am a surgeon who does transplants and gained knowledge in medical school through the dissection of a donated body. What about organ donation?
[RajeshG]I have already provided more than sufficient evidence from Scripture to show that the burial of the dead bodies of His saints has always been acceptable to God and approved by Him. Those who advocate that the cremation of the dead bodies of His saints is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.
Eph. 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children … 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Tellingly, they cannot provide any evidence from Scripture to support their position.
That’s it? That’s your argument? That is how you prove something is sin?
Lemme ask you this - are you of the mind that any musical instrument not mentioned as being used in scripture is sin? Because I have heard people who believe that way, so I’m really wondering if they came to that conclusion using the same method. Maybe that really is a thing - if it is, it would explain a lot.
Ashamed of Jesus! of that Friend On whom for heaven my hopes depend! It must not be! be this my shame, That I no more revere His name. -Joseph Grigg (1720-1768)
[JNoël]Whatever God says is so. He says that we are to prove what is acceptable to Him (Eph. 5:10).That’s it? That’s your argument? That is how you prove something is sin?
Lemme ask you this - are you of the mind that any musical instrument not mentioned as being used in scripture is sin? Because I have heard people who believe that way, so I’m really wondering if they came to that conclusion using the same method. Maybe that really is a thing - if it is, it would explain a lot.
I do not have to prove that cremation is not acceptable to Him. It is contrary to everything that Scripture reveals. You have to prove that it is acceptable to Him. Feel free to prove from Scripture that cremation is acceptable to Him.
[Dan Miller]I have not really thought through that issue, but at first thought I do not find any Scriptural support for believers doing so. Let the unbelievers do so.I am a surgeon who does transplants and gained knowledge in medical school through the dissection of a donated body. What about organ donation?
[JNoël]I have already treated Amos 2 that shows fierce divine judgment against a whole nation for their burning the bones of the king of Edom to lime. That passage is more than sufficient to teach us that God intensely disapproves of those who destroy dead bodies of people with means that He has not authorized for them to use. Judging people by denying them burial is solely His divine prerogative.That’s it? That’s your argument?
According to Rajesh, much of what I have done over the course of my life is sin. Since Scripture doesn’t explicitly mention it, it is not acceptable le to God.
Rajesh: “Those who advocate that [insert anything not explicitly mentioned in the Bible here] is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.”
Mr. LaVern G. Carpenter
Proverbs 3:1-12
[LGCarpenter]Wow! Such shameful dishonesty: (1) pull a statement out of its context; (2) remove the word that was in the sentence; (3) put in a blank placeholder; and (4) claim that the doctored statement of the original that was in a specific context is what someone believes and would support.According to Rajesh, much of what I have done over the course of my life is sin. Since Scripture doesn’t explicitly mention it, it is not acceptable le to God.
Rajesh: “Those who advocate that [insert anything not explicitly mentioned in the Bible here] is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.”
Any honest person can see from my original paragraph below that I did not say any such thing as a general statement:
I have already provided more than sufficient evidence from Scripture to show that the burial of the dead bodies of His saints has always been acceptable to God and approved by Him. Those who advocate that the cremation of the dead bodies of His saints is also acceptable to God and approved by Him need to show from Scripture that their position is true.
Discussion