Official denies John MacArthur makes more than $500K a year from Grace to You

”’…a report has been floating around online for some time that John makes more than half a million dollars annually from GTY. Totally false,’ Phil Johnson, GTY executive director and an elder at MacArthur’s Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, said in a statement.’” - C.Post

Discussion

[Bert Perry]

….but it appears that Ramsey and his wife are selling their current home to build another, which I assume will be of similar size or perhaps bigger. I don’t think it’s wrong to be prosperous, but at a certain point, there is a question of whether one has enough at some point, whether the hassle of a ginormous home is worth it, and at what point the legitimate enjoyment of God’s good gifts becomes covetousness and being stingy with God.

There is also the question of “wouldn’t you want to enjoy things you’ve worked hard to create for a while?” I don’t begrudge Ramsey his money, but there’s a drive to “have” on his part that I don’t understand totally.

I agree with you but I do wonder what to do when wealth begins to accumulate very quickly. I believe he has over 100 pieces of paid for real estate. That’s some serious wealth generation.

I honestly wouldn’t know where to give it all away responsibly.

Seriously. If you’ve got enough to support yourself in grand style for your whole life, but you’re still healthy and have a lot to add, just take a pay cut. Lots of ways to do that—cut the prices for your products, give your workers a raise or profit sharing, stock options for the workers, whatever.

No doubt that figuring out what to do with a pile of cash can be hugely problematic—I’ve run through the thought myself, and I came to the conclusion that it could actually destroy some ministries if I gave them too much. Accountability matters. But at a certain point, what we ought to do ought to have something to do with how much we can manage effectively.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

[Bert Perry]

Seriously. If you’ve got enough to support yourself in grand style for your whole life, but you’re still healthy and have a lot to add, just take a pay cut. Lots of ways to do that—cut the prices for your products, give your workers a raise or profit sharing, stock options for the workers, whatever.

No doubt that figuring out what to do with a pile of cash can be hugely problematic—I’ve run through the thought myself, and I came to the conclusion that it could actually destroy some ministries if I gave them too much. Accountability matters. But at a certain point, what we ought to do ought to have something to do with how much we can manage effectively.

Unknown … how much he gives away

As an aside. I have a nice house (I consider it moderate) in Plymouth MN. If it could be picked up and planted in some California locations, it could be a million-dollar home.

I’m giving John Mac a pass on the salary issue.

If anyone thinks Dave Ramsey’s company is a ministry that’s pretty misguided IMO. I don’t really care how much he earns because I consider it a business. JMac is a pastor so the situation is different. I agree with Jim though that some of the shock comes from seeing inflated income to match a very HCOL area. It may be too much but I can’t say. It’s seems like a lot.

Ramsey runs a business. No doubt about that. At the same time, his business is to sell what he deems to be Biblical principles for stewardship, which means Ramsey is presenting himself as a Christian leader, at which point we are fair to say “well, does Ramsey’s own stewardship conform to the Bible’s requirement that an elder should not be a lover of money?” Moreover, even if we see Ramsey as not an elder at all, but rather a fellow believer, we have the question of when his enjoyment of prosperity falls into the category of the man who builds new barns, per Luke 12. No?

Back to MacArthur, I’d agree that his status seems far less problematic than Ramsey’s, let alone that of many prosperity Gospel preachers whose wealth and ostentation is quite frankly grotesque. Even so, however, it’s a place where it’s fair to ask him why he’s messing with three homes, and why the corporate governance of the entities he leads is so opaque. It could be entirely benign, but the way his organizations are going about things makes it look really, really gross.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Personal finance is so EZ …. it’s much easier when debt is harder to obtain.

When I was in college (67-71), the extent of my credit line (a Gulf Oil CC) was $ 200. That was enough for a small ‘emergency’. There was NO credit available for college (people either had their parents pay or paygo quarter by quarter or semester by semester).

Want to know why college was much less expensive back then … no (or rare) student loans.

Personal finance was EZ because one put $$ into a saving account and balanced a checkbook. (How hard is that?!)

By the way, there’s a free (absolutely FREE) personal finance series on S/I. Here: https://sharperiron.org/tags/series-wise-finances

OR you could buy a book on Amazon for under $ 12 bucks

https://www.amazon.com/Personal-Finance-Dummies-Eric-Tyson/dp/111951789…

OR you could pay Ramsey hundreds of dollars. FOOL!

https://www.daveramsey.com/store/education?snid=store_nav.classes.found…

“Moreover, even if we see Ramsey as not an elder at all, but rather a fellow believer, we have the question of when his enjoyment of prosperity falls into the category of the man who builds new barns, per Luke 12. No?”

I really don’t know how I could have that conversation personally. I wouldn’t have anything to go on. There is no clear sin there. I don’t really see wealth as necessarily evil. Abraham for instance, as well as Solomon. The principles he espouses include generous giving as a step in financial life. Whether he actually does so or not isn’t clear. Maybe if I was even borderline wealthy I’d be concerned about falling into that sin but I’ll never have to worry about that!

The SNL skit really illustrates to a great degree how Ramsey makes his money; notice that the guy saying “don’t spend money you don’t have” really isn’t cluing in to how the psychology of debt works. It’s totally obvious to him, but the couple just doesn’t see their way there.

For whatever other faults or virtues Ramsey has, that’s what he gets. Instead of “just don’t spend money you don’t have”, Ramsey (and Crown Financial to a degree) tells people what their options are, and his seven step plan (which is free) acknowledges this by putting a few natural “endorphin hits” in for people who are struggling financially—little successes that will encourage people to get to the next step. That’s the same basic principle behind his “debt snowball”, and his encouraging people that it’s time to drive a beater, eat beans and rice, and the like.

Not everyone needs that, but a lot of people do.

Side note here; a lot of the hard work in helping brothers at church grow this way is in teaching and modeling these things. If you live in a smaller house than typical, drive an older or less luxury vehicle, eat a little bit lower on the food chain, shine your shoes, mend your clothes, ignore fashion, and the like, you just might have the qualities you need to help someone in this regard.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

I don’t care how much money JMac makes. The only thing I find personally troubling about Roys’ series on JMac are the composition of the various boards. I suspect JMac has been at the “too big to fail” level for quite some time. But, none of this impacts me personally so my concern is merely abstract. I will say that my eldest son is not going to TMU next year because the place is virtually synonymous with JMac to an unhealthy degree. He is TMU. He is the untouchable man; witness the ongoing issues with TMU/TMS’ accreditation agency and the allegations of implicit nepotism.

I’d prefer my son get an education at a place that’s a bit less intertwined with one single individual. So, he’s going to Boyce.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

[Jim]

Want to know why college was much less expensive back then … no (or rare) student loans.

And heavy state investment with tax dollars to support it. And private schools got funds from donors. The school I earned my PhD at used to be 85% state funded as of 1995. This year it is 31% state funded.

And your finance plan doesn’t have a place for your first child being born with a birth defect issue and the Republican Christian hero governor of your state just canceled the Medicaid plan for such situations and as a graduate student making $1500 a month was too much for the regular medicaid plan… so you owe a ton, and that debt snowballs to more debt as you have to pay $400 a month more than you make for medical supplies for your daughter!

[Mark_Smith]

And your finance plan doesn’t have a place for your first child being born with a birth defect issue and the Republican Christian hero governor of your state just canceled the Medicaid plan for such situations and as a graduate student making $1500 a month was too much for the regular medicaid plan… so you owe a ton, and that debt snowballs to more debt as you have to pay $400 a month more than you make for medical supplies for your daughter!

Sorry about your situation. Point I intended to make is …

  • No one needs Dave Ramsey solution!

And heavy state investment with tax dollars to support it.

Many have pointed out that the rise in college costs coincides with the increase in availability of student loans. Since there was more money available, schools were able to charge more. And so they did. There has also been a large increase in the number of administrators, particularly in “compliance” positions.

And your finance plan doesn’t have a place for …

But the principles of sound finance aren’t changed by relatively rare and extenuating circumstances. Most of the debt people have and Ramsey is targeting it stupid debt — like buying TVs on credit cards and buying new cars on long term loans (or on any loans), etc.

Isn’t it true that most consumer debt is stupid debt and the principles to get out and stay out are live lean, live on a budget, and discipline yourself to pay down debt?

And even if you have these problems that are out of your control, the principles for getting out of them is still the same.

Ramsey is a businessman and he offers people a valuable service that people willingly (and often wisely) pay for. I say “wisely” because some people don’t have the knowledge to do it themselves. The price of FPU is small compared to the cost of debt.

While in one sense Jim’s comment that no one needs Ramsey is true, in a larger sense, it simply isn’t true. People don’t know how to get out of debt. They have no plan. And Ramsey gives them a cheap and workable plan to get out.

[josh p]

“Moreover, even if we see Ramsey as not an elder at all, but rather a fellow believer, we have the question of when his enjoyment of prosperity falls into the category of the man who builds new barns, per Luke 12. No?”

I really don’t know how I could have that conversation personally. I wouldn’t have anything to go on. There is no clear sin there. I don’t really see wealth as necessarily evil. Abraham for instance, as well as Solomon. The principles he espouses include generous giving as a step in financial life. Whether he actually does so or not isn’t clear. Maybe if I was even borderline wealthy I’d be concerned about falling into that sin but I’ll never have to worry about that!

Josh, I think you illustrate something that I’ve been wondering is a blind spot for a lot of us fundagelicals. There is some sin that the man building barns is accused of. Is it cheating God on his tithes? Is it taking it easy because he thinks he has enough? Is it storing up his wealth in barns when he ought to be using it for God’s glory? Does this have something to do with James 5:3?

Going from Luke 12 and James 5:3 to today, do our full storage areas full of rotting and corroding items really testify against us? Do we need to consider whether we simply have enough, and then choose to stop accumulating—all while contributing to God’s service that way? And then there is the question of whether some of our business practices would be cheating those with whom we do business—just because someone agreed to it does not seem to be sufficient justification for doing it that way.

To this discussion specifically, what would we say about a home that doesn’t really get used? Not that having something nice is wrong, but if we have half our home that isn’t ever used, or if we have vacation homes that are used one weekend per year, what does that say about us? Is God pleased?

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.