Trouble at Dave Ramsey's Company?

They have been saying this about his company for quite a while. It does seem to be very much a brand built around one guy. I listen off and on. Definitely not somewhere I would go for spiritual advice but I do think being out of debt is a good goal for everyone, as difficult as that is. I’ve been on the journey for years and am only now finishing up (besides my house).

….but “we named the ministry after its founder” seems to be a reasonable shorthand for “there will be problems.”

knows its his way or the Long Island Expressway. Why are we surprised?

The Ramsey “ministry” is promoted heavily in churches. Debt. We should get a handle on it. It is NOT in my opinion as “big a deal” as most make it. We make debt sound like sin. Churches seem to promote getting out of debt more than dealing with abuse, or adultery, or pornography, or drinking, or cursing. Makes me sad.

When was the last church that had an 9 week seminar on spousal abuse? Or getting rid of pornography?

I sense a lot of judgementalism in the church concerning debt. And Ramsay, while offering one lifeline, promotes that culture.

Just yesterday I happened to be in an office with Fox News playing on the TV. Mike Huckabee was being interviewed. He rattled off a list of Republican characteristics. The second one was “pays debts on time”… It caught my ear. Is paying debts that high on your character list?

As for the article’s details, nothing in there surprises me one bit. You simply cannot control people like this in a business. Keeping an eye on church leadership is one thing, monitoring the “credit habits” of your employees is creepy. Enforcing your anti-COVID views is concerning, and then the hypocrisy of covering up your rich best buds sexual affairs is all too common.

DISCLAIMER: I have neither used Dave’s financial peace program nor have I worked for his ministry business.

In our current climate, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt to the subject target of articles like this. Given his on-air personality, I imagine Dave can come across as harsh and direct in person. That is part of what makes him successful: giving no-nonsense rebuke and admonishment to people who’ve made foolish financial choices. In other words, Dave is very paternalistic, and this tendency carries over to how he treats his employees. I don’t doubt that his paternalism and his harsh, direct communication are offensive to some of his former employees. But here’s the thing, no one is forcing you to 1) go to work for Ramsey Corp. or 2) continue to work for Ramsey Corp. If you don’t like the terms of employment (and you know them upfront), don’t work for Ramsey Corp. If you don’t like the terms of employment and don’t find out about them until after you work there, don’t continue to work for Ramsey Corp.

That being said, there is a difference between being paternalistic and being a cult. And, there is a difference between being blunt or brusque and being abusive. In the era of victimization, it’s often hard to discern the truth about these differences. If someone gets their feelings hurt, they often claim they’ve been emotionally abused and that the perpetrator is an abusive bully. That is why I am hesitant to always “believe the victim” in situations like this.

To address Mark’s comment above, I would just say that Scripture tells us a lot about how one should handle their finances. Scripture also is clear that one’s finances are often related to one’s spiritual condition / maturity. In other words, someone who is constantly in debt and living above his or her means has more than a financial issue that needs to be addressed.

Heard it for years…

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, a balanced check book and a healthy savings account. Most people make a strong emphasis on the last 2 imagined components and very little on the others.

I see the NT talking about giving… I missed the part about debt. Most of the OT references are in the civil law. Proverbs is general wisdom, not prescriptive. Where is all this discussion about the spiritual indicators of our debt?

*But I don’t want to hijack the thread, so don’t bother answering.*

Oh, and if God rewards you with your first child and a $100,000+ medical bill that you are still paying, does that mean your spiritual condition was weak? Be careful about debt assumptions brother.

I’ve used his seven steps—not quite sure if he got it first or if Crown did—and I value a lot of what Ramsey does. I applaud the fact that his ministry also (around 2014-5) started teaching a lot more about contentment. I’m an eager reader of his newspaper columns.

What gives me concern, beyond him naming his ministry after himself, is keeping the offices open for employees who could have worked from home in the height of COVID, the public (and not anonymous) evidence of something of a dictatorial management style, employees in finance taking huge pay cuts while the boss is sitting on tens of millions of dollars, and of course Ramsey’s 13000 square foot house. It’s a disconnect with the lives and concerns of his readers/followers that does not bode well for him. As I noted before, naming your ministry after yourself is a warning, though certainly not a guarantee, of upcoming problems.

I made no assumptions about debt other than if it’s caused by constantly living above your means…which, btw, is the cause of most debt (i.e. both revolving and non-revolving debt). Approximately 32% of American workers have medical debt, and of those only 11% owe >=$100K. Consequently, most people are in major debt today not because of medical bills but because they lost a job and/or are living above their means.

To those constantly living above their means (i.e. most Americans in debt), the Scripture has plenty to say.

I cut my financial chops with Larry Burkett and Christian Financial Concepts (now Crown). CFC’s materials taught me as a newly married 20-something making $28K annually how to create and track a budget and live within my means, the importance of an emergency fund, and the blessing of giving.

I really don’t get what’s so great about him and his business. To me, getting out of debt is just about contentment and discipline. I’m not sure why it takes buying a book and taking a course to do it. As far as his investing advice, he just passes common investing knowledge. I think some Christians think his material contains some secret way out of debt and into wealth.

[Jonathan Charles]

I really don’t get what’s so great about him and his business. To me, getting out of debt is just about contentment and discipline. I’m not sure why it takes buying a book and taking a course to do it. As far as his investing advice, he just passes common investing knowledge. I think some Christians think his material contains some secret way out of debt and into wealth.

Jonathan, I would guess that Dave Ramsey is so popular because he provides hope to those drowning in debt and a simple process to pay off that debt (i.e. the debt snowball). One of my coworkers was featured on his show a couple years back as an example of how a young couple can pay off over $100K in student loans and $25K in consumer debt if they are disciplined and stick to Dave’s baby steps program. She and her husband are now proudly on baby step 6 (i.e. paying off their home early), and they are still in their 20s.

To folks who have little financial experience or knowledge, Dave’s process is very simple and straightforward. Plus, he provides numerous case studies on his program of people in dire financial situations who were able to succeed because they followed his process. Hope is a powerful thing.

I agree with T Howard. The strength of Ramsey is simplicity with tough love. He has a simple and repeatable plan for people who have no idea where to start and he doesn’t have time for excuses and he won’t let you make them. Some people don’t need that, but a lot of people do.

In response to at least one thing Bert said, I remember Dave at the beginning of the shutdown saying that leaders have to take paycuts first. You start at the top not the bottom.

or any other system, if you make more than your basic minimal need. The more you make the faster you get ahead. Ramsey says stupid things like “work a second job” to make more… well, I appreciate that, but not everyone can do that. Or “get a clunker car” to save money. But then the clunker breaks down and you can’t get to work that day and you lose your job! On and on and on… It sounds good, and it works for some. But it is my no means a fool proof plan.

If the waves of challenges keep hitting your beach, it can be tough to make headway on large debt…

It MAY be discipline that is your problem. It can be other things.

In my view, he’s got three things that make him a superstar. First of all, he’s got a personal magnetism that draws people to him. That can be good or bad, and it might have something to do with the issues that Julie Roys’ team is bringing up.

Second, Ramsey understands the importance of psychology in a way that those at Crown have not historically done—you’ve got his enthusiasm, and you’ve also got the importance of “how do you get started paying off debt?” and how it’s a psychological boost to get the smallest one paid off first, then the next smallest, etc..

Third, Ramsey understands historic norms and just how “poor” one can live and still remain in the land of the living. A famous example is when he’ll tell a caller that it’s “rice and beans” time, which really draws the picture that we don’t need to have a lot of meat and sugar to have a decent dinner. We can cut costs really low and still be OK.

There are limits—see Mark Smith’s comment from 3:31 for examples—but all in all, I’m very grateful for guys like Ramsey and Crown, and I would mourn if misbehavior in his company took him out.

[Mark_Smith] You can only get out of debt in Ramsey’s system or any other system, if you make more than your basic minimal need.

While true, the definition of “basic minimal need” needs to be accurately defined to be helpful. Does cable TV and Netflix fall under “basic minimal need”? Does eating out once or twice a week fall under “basic minimal need”? Does getting coffee at Starbucks on a regular basis or going to the movies fall under “basic minimal need”? I’ve found that people who struggle financially because they live above their means often conflate luxury / comfort (i.e. discretionary spending) with “basic minimal need.” For example, they come to a church asking for financial assistance, but when one of the requirements to receive that help is a review of their monthly budget / spending, they often decline the help or refuse to make the necessary cuts to discretionary spending. To them, all their spending is necessary.

That is why someone like Dave Ramsey can be helpful / needful. He is able to see through the charade and call out people for their foolish financial behavior / attitudes. Tough love.

That’s not popular today. It’s easier to be a victim of bad circumstances or bad people. “The reason I can’t get ahead in life is … [something out of my control].”

My wife and I lived on $28K our first couple years of marriage. We ate lots of mac&cheese and ramen. We had no furniture. We ate our meals on my briefcase (a Christmas present from my parents), which served as our dining table. We slept on the floor of our one-bedroom apartment; we couldn’t even afford a mattress. We drove an 86 Dodge Aries that we had purchased for $500 while in college. The year was 1997. So, I know it’s possible to live within your means making very little money. It’s definitely not easy. It requires self-discipline, sacrifice, and contentment–three characteristics most young Americans don’t possess.

Now, looking back almost 24 years, I can testify that God was always faithful to provide for our needs, and sometimes even our wants.

In the New Testament, Romans 13:8 comes to mind, and we can also infer something from Matthew 18:21-35, although it’s not the main point of the parable of the unmerciful servant.

But that noted, is not not enough to note Old Testament passages like Proverbs 22:7, which notes the hazards of debt? Now we might—as many have—note that Ramsey’s position is fairly hard-line, while Scripture does not outright condemn debt, but I feel comfortable noting, as does Ramsey, that the general tone in Scripture is negative.

Mark does have a good point about the “clunker” car, and I’ve long felt that this is one of the weaknesses of most financial ministries. People get pressed into the shorter lifespan and lower reliability of beaters when the used car market has really already priced in the wear and tear they’ve already suffered. They then end up paying for a portion of the luxuries/options that the original owners wanted, have trouble getting to work at times, and end up paying more transaction fees than they would have if they’d bought relatively new and driven it 200,000 miles or more—what I’ve done with three of my cars now.

[Bert Perry] In the New Testament, Romans 13:8 comes to mind, and we can also infer something from Matthew 18:21-35, although it’s not the main point of the parable of the unmerciful servant.

Bert, much of the average American’s consumer debt is caused by a lack of contentment, a lack of self-control, and envy (aka “Keeping up with the Joneses”). Even our unsaved world recognizes this. Are there not numerous passages in both testaments that address these issues directly? Absolutely.