Russell Moore: 'If I were a member of Congress, I would vote to impeach' President Trump

I am furious with President Trump. I believe he deserves to be impeached. What he did, either directly, or by shameful deceit and manipulative encouragement is despicable and needs to be punished appropriately.

But, it is not inappropriate to say that Palosi, Harris, Waters, and others in high offices have been equally guilty. SI is beginning to sound like Don Lemons shameful attempt to explain why his support of months of rioting by the Left was a good thing, but this one riot by the Right is bad, bad, bad. Let’ s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

Greg, I may disagree with you about impeachment, BUT I very much respect your position. You are consistent and honest. For me, it is not really a big deal that we disagree about impeachment as long as it is applied equally to all involved. If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.

Republicans and Christians have been calling out Trump and at times they should have. It is not wrong to suggest the the same should be done for democrat leaders who have done the same as Trump and have been getting away with it for longer than he has even been in office.

[dgszweda]

G. N. Barkman wrote:

Let’ s be willing to say they are BOTH equally reprehensible and both ought to be denounced and all who encouraged either need to be held accountable.

No one is saying that they are not both bad. This thread is about trump though, not every government official in the country. I kind of feel that many of us are acting like 1st graders. We say, “We took Johnny’s toy because Johnny took my toy”. Just because the democrats do something doesn’t lessen our need to call out Trump. The overt concern with Trump is because his behaviors have been excused for 4 years by the religious right, always pointing to the other side being worse.

[JDMiller] Are you saying the church needs to take the log out of their own eye before they can call out democrats, but they do not have to take the log out of their own eye before confronting republicans? That is what I am talking about when I use the word “bigotry.”

The church (i.e. individual believers) needs to rid itself of political pragmatism. Period. Then, Christians who identify as republicans need to do their best to rid the party of morally bankrupt politicians like Trump. Only then can we muster up any righteous indignation and squawk about the democrats.

[JDMiller] If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.

Not at all. What does Peter say? (1 Peter 4:17) Christians need to take care of our own business before seeking to point out the hypocrisy in others.

[JDMiller] Republicans and Christians have been calling out Trump and at times they should have.

Very few have. That is the problem. Most have rationalized and justified his behavior because of political pragmatism. Even some here still rationalize Trump’s moral bankruptcy as “sure, so he has a few issues…”,and then immediately follow it up with, “…but what about those democrats.” This rationalization and tu quoque argumentation has to stop.

Seems THoward is calling for a political and moral purge of the Republican Party based on . . what . . his own understanding of what is correct? And even if that standard is correct, how would he “rid the party” of those he considers unacceptable? A little scary.

Once again, political pragmatism is always a part of almost every political decision, including, to some extent, many decisions in churches. Politics is present in churches too, simply a mechanism to accomplish goals. Doesn’t have to be bad or immoral.

I asked Tom”

If the idea of treating people differently were applied in the church the way it is being applied in politics that would be an extreme injustice.

His reply:

Not at all. What does Peter say? (1 Peter 4:17) Christians need to take care of our own business before seeking to point out the hypocrisy in others.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting the I Peter 4 is saying that if you have a Republican and a Democrat in your church you are supposed to overlook their sin until the church votes to condemn Trump? Or are you suggesting that it is okay to condemn the Republican, but not the Democrat because of Trump? I am honesty not sure what you are suggesting.

If you are suggesting that it would be wrong to confront a sin in person B’s life when you had been overlooking it in person A’s life for years and continuing to allow person A to continue in church leadership, then I can see where you are coming from. That is what we are talking about when we point out that people in leadership on the national level have been allowed for years to get by with the same thing that Trump was just impeached for.

The hypothesis the Democrats are working on, more or less, is that if a prominent politician says things which rouse a protest into a riot, then that poses such a danger to the Republic that that politician must be removed.

If they apply that “principle”, however, to only one side of the aisle, then they’ve merely engaged in political gamesmanship, intended to promote their brand and degrade the other. And since the names of Democrats who encouraged the earlier riots are not on the bill, nor seriously in consideration, that’s the case here. Republicans are thus free to make the decision on whether to impeach on pragmatic grounds, and they are free to point out the blatant hypocrisy of the Democrats.

You can’t have a republic if the rules only apply to one side of the argument, and that’s a big reason Trump got elected in the first place. You had a four year pursuit of Scooter Libby for allegedly lying to investigators—same with Michael Flynn—but when it came to an open and shut case against Hilliary Clinton for mishandling classified data, Jim Comey wouldn’t even convene a grand jury and issue a single subpoena. Same basic thing with Joe Biden’s selling of favors to benefit himself and his son, the investigation of Fast & Furious, the IRS scandal….the pattern is pretty clear here. If it would punish Democrats or bureaucrats, the investigation gets slow walked into oblivion.

One final note is that with regards to the 25th Amendment, there is no clear evidence that Trump is incapacitated. Let’s not succumb to the common disease of politicians, grabbing for any remedy whether or not it fits.

[WallyMorris]

Seems THoward is calling for a political and moral purge of the Republican Party based on . . what . . his own understanding of what is correct? And even if that standard is correct, how would he “rid the party” of those he considers unacceptable? A little scary.

Yes, I’m calling for a purge of the Republican party … a purge of morally bankrupt politicians like Trump. We “rid the party” of these people by refusing to support / vote for them — instead of rationalizing and justifying their behavior based on political pragmatism and tu quoque argumentation. If conservative Christians didn’t support / vote for Trump, he would never have been the Republican nominee for president.

Once again, political pragmatism is always a part of almost every political decision, including, to some extent, many decisions in churches. Politics is present in churches too, simply a mechanism to accomplish goals. Doesn’t have to be bad or immoral.

Without safeguards, political pragmatism leads to politicians like Trump, Lenin, Hitler, et al. (No, I’m not saying Trump = Hitler). If the end justifies the means, then any means is acceptable as long as the end is realized.

How can Christians advocate this worldview?

[JD Miller] Just to clarify, are you suggesting the I Peter 4 is saying that if you have a Republican and a Democrat in your church you are supposed to overlook their sin until the church votes to condemn Trump? Or are you suggesting that it is okay to condemn the Republican, but not the Democrat because of Trump? I am honesty not sure what you are suggesting.

If you are suggesting that it would be wrong to confront a sin in person B’s life when you had been overlooking it in person A’s life for years and continuing to allow person A to continue in church leadership, then I can see where you are coming from. That is what we are talking about when we point out that people in leadership on the national level have been allowed for years to get by with the same thing that Trump was just impeached for.

Let me be clear:

Step 1: Christians need to reject political pragmatism as an acceptable worldview.

Step 2: Christians need to do their part to “purge out” the morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified political candidates from the Republican party. This is done by refusing to vote for these people, even in the general election. Yes, that means democrats may win the election.

Step 3: Christians then have a platform on which they can call out the Democrats.

Is this not what Jesus taught us in Matthew 7? You can’t remove the speck in your neighbor’s eye (ie. democrats) when you have a log in your own (ie. republicans). First, remove the log out of your own eye, then you can help your neighbor to remove the speck in his eye.

Instead of removing the log in our eye, we Christians refuse to remove the log. In fact, we like the log in our eye because it allows us to get what we want. When someone says, “hey, you have a huge log in your eye,” we immediately get defensive and respond, “yeah, but what about that guy over there. Look at his log.” And, we refuse to remove our log. We’re always deflecting. Always excusing. Always justifying the log in our eye.

Brothers, it starts with us. Stop the madness.

[T Howard]

Is this not what Jesus taught us in Matthew 7? You can’t remove the speck in your neighbor’s eye (ie. democrats) when you have a log in your own (ie. republicans). First, remove the log out of your own eye, then you can help your neighbor to remove the speck in his eye.

You’re saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

I think you are out to lunch.

[Don Johnson] You’re saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

That wasn’t the original context of Jesus’ instruction, Don, but, yes, we can certainly apply it to our involvement in politics. We can also apply Matt 5:13-16 to our involvement in politics. (and, we’re failing to obey this passage too.)

morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified members from my Sunday School class, let alone a political organization!

[T Howard]

Don Johnson wrote:You’re saying that Mt 7 is instruction on politics? On group activity?

That wasn’t the original context of Jesus’ instruction, Don, but, yes, we can certainly apply it to our involvement in politics. We can also apply Matt 5:13-16 to our involvement in politics. (and, we’re failing to obey this passage too.)

the trouble is, your “application” is just your opinion. I think it’s delusional at best.

Let me be clear:

Step 1: Christians need to reject political pragmatism as an acceptable worldview.

Step 2: Christians need to do their part to “purge out” the morally corrupt, inept, and otherwise unqualified political candidates from the Republican party. This is done by refusing to vote for these people, even in the general election. Yes, that means democrats may win the election.

Step 3: Christians then have a platform on which they can call out the Democrats.

That sounds like a position of someone who is equating the Republican party with Christianity. The Republican party is not part of the church. It is made up of believers and unbelievers. My faith is in Christ, not the Republican party. That does not mean that God cannot use our elected leaders and even a party, but I do not expect to ever be able to “clean up” a secular institution in a manner that reaches God’s standards. That does not mean that we ignore problems. Republicans have not ignored every problem within their party. To suggest otherwise is slander. Still I am not involved in the Republican Party other than when I go vote. I was involved at the state and local level about 20 years ago, but I decided my attention was better spent elsewhere. At the same time I respect those Christians who do get involved and who try to direct the party towards more godly principles.

[JD Miller] That sounds like a position of someone who is equating the Republican party with Christianity. The Republican party is not part of the church. It is made up of believers and unbelievers. My faith is in Christ, not the Republican party.

I agree. So, then, let’s start acting like Christians instead of political pragmatists! Let’s be delusional (according to Don) and start acting like salt and light. If the Republican party puts up a terrible candidate, let’s choose not to support or vote for him/her … regardless of who the democratic candidate is. Let’s stop making excuses for terrible behavior by our candidates while engaging in tu quoque argumentation about the democrats.

That’s all I’m saying, brothers.

THoward: One difficulty is who decides what is a “terrible candidate” and by what standard? If you aren’t careful, you will eliminate every candidate from each political party and end up not voting for anyone ever. I can find major problems with each candidate from each political party since George Washington. Even Washington was strongly disliked at certain points in his two administrations.

I suspect that these decisions will only get more difficult every election cycle as the general population and specifically those running for elected office are less influenced by Biblical ethics. But each Christian has to make voting decisions for himself and live with his conscience before God. Representative Democracy in our republic is messy. But, as the political philosophers say, better than the alternatives.