Evangelical leaders condemn Capitol protest violence: 'Dangerous for our republic'

Watch it again and see what you think, especially the ending where the defense attorney chastizes them all for failing to help their leader overcome his shortcomings…

As I’ve said, if Christians didn’t vote for Trump during the primaries, he wouldn’t have been the Republican nominee. Period.

Actually, the truth is that a majority of evangelicals voted for someone other than Trump in the primary so long as there was another option. It was only at the end that a majority voted for Trump. The problem is that the evangelical vote was split too many ways.

I wasn’t one of them, but around where I am, there were plenty of evangelicals voting for Trump in the primaries. Perhaps not the core of his support, but plenty, especially after guys like Jeffries and Falwell endorsed him.

Perhaps part of the issue is the high regard we “fundagelicals” often have for bigness, and we get confused over the difference between “big” and “good”? Dunno.

[Larry]

Actually, the truth is that a majority of evangelicals voted for someone other than Trump in the primary so long as there was another option. It was only at the end that a majority voted for Trump. The problem is that the evangelical vote was split too many ways.

Yeah, that seems to have been the case here. Looking at the Republican primary in 2016 for my state, I can see that Trump received approximately 40% of the vote. Cruz (who I voted for) got just about 37%, but if you add in Rubio, Carson, and Kasich, there was about 58% total, not including the various “others” that received votes. Clearly the primary was split too much.

It’s interesting that Bert notes more evangelicals voting Trump where he is. I didn’t attend any rallies or anything, and I’m registered “unaffiliated” rather than as part of a named party, but I didn’t see much of the “evangelical Trump” vote here. Perhaps I’m just too disconnected from state politics.

I wasn’t one of them, but around where I am, there were plenty of evangelicals voting for Trump in the primaries. Perhaps not the core of his support, but plenty, especially after guys like Jeffries and Falwell endorsed him.

In Michigan, only 37% of evangelicals voted for Trump. 60% voted for someone else. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/primaries/mi/)

See also https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2016/03/the-myth-of-the…

In the end, a deeper look at the exit polls reveal that Trump has failed to earn a majority of evangelicals in any southern state thus far and a vast super-majority of evangelicals have consistently supported other candidates. Furthermore, to those who religion matters most, Trump’s support is on average the weakest, while Ted Cruz’s is on average the strongest. Lastly, very few actual “values voters” are supporting Trump and they are instead opting for Cruz and Rubio in much larger numbers. Evangelical voters are not a monolith and defining them or generalizing about them is difficult at best, but it seems clear that they are not, as a group, Trump supporters. In short, headlines suggesting that evangelicals as a group support Trump seem rooted in a convenient media narrative rather than the facts.

The last line of that paragraph (and article) seems particularly poignant and one I have long been convinced of. I don’t see any evidence of overwhelming support for Trump along evangelicals unless overwhelming is only a reference to the percentage of vote in the general election. It seems that evangelicals overwhelmingly voted for someone else when they had the chance and were very skeptical of him. He was elected because the other alternative was just as bad character wise but judged to be worse on policies, two propositions that are hardly debateable. That is hardly political pragmatism in any reasonable sense. On which …

Perhaps part of the issue is the high regard we “fundagelicals” often have for bigness, and we get confused over the difference between “big” and “good”? Dunno.

I think it has more to do with the evangelical view of the importance of saving culture, to one degree or another. In 2016 and 2020, there was a worldview issue at stake. Most evangelicals, like most others, belief that culture and society still matter and that we have a duty to preserve the best one that we can. There are a minority of evangelicals, and probably almost none of anyone else, that don’t believe culture and society matter much and it is fine to throw it all away. There were, in the words of John Edwards, a vision of two Americas and evangelicals voted for the vision that was closer to Christian ideals even though it involved a candidate they did not prefer.

The reality is that the country envisioned by Trump and his policies is far closer to the conservative vision than Clinton or Biden. And it is that what drove the vote. Evangelicals and liberals seem more likely to be concerned about the future and vote in ways that will further the vision they have.

Those who would not and did not vote for Trump (2016 and/or 2020) are now seeing what happens when people like Biden win the Presidency. People drunk with power now using their power to silence/punish political enemies, all while claiming they want to unify the country. The stupid attack on Congress last week (encouraged by Trump’s reckless rhetoric) has given those who are the true fascists the excuse they need to control and silence political opposition. Those who so eloquently stated their moral opposition to Trump now get to see what happens when the new Democratic Party and their big business supporters gain power.

[Mark_smith] You really should be careful about asserting that a vote for Trump was unethical (if not sinful). There was no way to know that the events that happened would happen. You can sit there and crow “I told you so,” but none of it was inevitable.

A vote for Trump was foolish, Mark, because it was based on political pragmatism. Political pragmatism leads to the mess we’re dealing with now. If you were aware of Trump’s past, you knew it would not end well. Even before the November election Trump telegraphed what his response would be if he lost. When you vote for and elect a demonstrably morally corrupt, narcissistic, pathological lying bully as your leader, you can’t claim to be Shocked! Shocked! at the corrupt fruit that he produces. So, yes, you should have known what was coming. A corrupt tree produces corrupt fruit.

[Larry] He was elected because the other alternative was just as bad character wise but judged to be worse on policies, two propositions that are hardly debateable. That is hardly political pragmatism in any reasonable sense.

Actually, that is a perfect example of political pragmatism. If a candidate doesn’t meet the three qualifications I laid out, the candidate does not get my vote. Period. If that means there are no acceptable Republican candidates to vote for, then so be it. I will not reward the Republican party with my vote if there are no candidates who are generally people of good character, people who are qualified to serve in that role, and people who advance the issues that are important to me. Why is this such a radical idea for Christians to understand? Because they are brainwashed to believe and promulgate political pragmatism.

That is why we get a sentiment like this from Wally:

[WallyMorris] Those who so eloquently stated their moral opposition to Trump now get to see what happens when the new Democratic Party and their big business supporters gain power.

So the end justifies the means, right Wally? We have to do what we have to do as long as Democrats don’t get elected. Let me be clear: this. is. unadulterated. political. pragmatism. This is a fool’s gambit.

[WallyMorris]

Those who would not and did not vote for Trump (2016 and/or 2020) are now seeing what happens when people like Biden win the Presidency. People drunk with power now using their power to silence/punish political enemies, all while claiming they want to unify the country.

Wally, both sides of the coin here. In 2016, Trump stated this, “Mr. Trump talks about all of the ways he will punish his enemies after Election Day, including a threat to fund a “super PAC” with vengeance as its core mission.”

The stupid attack on Congress last week (encouraged by Trump’s reckless rhetoric) has given those who are the true fascists the excuse they need to control and silence political opposition.

The definition of facism is, “a form of far-right, authoritarian palingenetic ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society.” Trump is a far-right ultranationalist that is sympathetic and supportive of their causes. Hence, why the key people who have been arrested in connection with the attack on the Capitol building are so far aligned to the far-right Patriot (ultranationalist) movement. Thus, why Parler was shut down, as a primary conduit for far-right extreme ideological thinking. Not sure how Biden is a facist?

Those who so eloquently stated their moral opposition to Trump now get to see what happens when the new Democratic Party and their big business supporters gain power.

Our vote was never for Biden. It was against the utter ineptitude and the trashy moral character of Trump. In contrast to the alignment that many Christian evangelicals have to Franklin Graham’s comment that “President Trump will go down as one of the Great Presidents”. I have heard the same cry year after year, “Just wait until you see what happens when Democrat XYZ assumes power….. the world will end”. Heard this with Carter, Clinton, Obama and now Biden. Guess, what? I am still waiting. I am confident that I will not agree with all of the policies of Biden. But I do believe that the security of our democratic institutions are much safer in the hands of Biden than in Trump.

If someone is going to talk about fascism, he needs to spell it correctly. The defn you gave from Wikipedia is only part of the meaning. Fascism also involves the integrated cooperation of gov’t and business to implement social agendas. Authoritarianism eventually results as the mechanism to implement the goals/agenda. Biden is a fascist in that he is using gov’t and business to implement his policies. He just hasn’t been openly authoritarian about it . . yet.

Political pragmatism is part of every vote, every national election since no candidate is pure and sinless. Other factors are part of the decision also, but every Presidential election I’ve voted in, starting in 1976 with Ford and Carter, has involved political pragmatism, to some degree.

Of course Trump’s statements about “getting even” were wrong and stupid. He was careless enough to say it publicly. Clinton, Biden, Obama, and others use more subtle methods.

Evangelicals like Graham and Jeffress align themselves too publicly and closely with political leaders. Billy Graham made that mistake with Nixon and regretted it.

We just heard from our friend who was at the DC rally. He was at the president’s speech, but began to walk towards the capital just before the speech was over. He was one of the first ones to get near the capital. As they were walking up to the capital, there were no fences or barriers and few police. As they neared the capital steps he did not think that there was any reason they were not supposed to be there. After they were already there, the fences were brought in and set up behind them. (That explains some of the video I have seen). As they were standing near the capital, they noticed an open door and one of his friends suggested they go in. My friend is a believer and he said that he got a feeling from God that it was not good for them to go in, so they did not. Other than his feeling, there was no indication that they were not allowed to go in and he noticed people calmly walking in and out. Their phones quit working just after they were notified of a coming curfew. They had a ways to walk so they decided they better head back to their hotel so they would not be out after curfew and most of the crowd did likewise. He said as they were walking toward the capital, there was no talk of violence, but instead the group was hoping to be a visual for those inside the capital to see how many people were there and thus be motivated to investigate the voter fraud claims.

[JD Miller]

We just heard from our friend who was at the DC rally. He was at the president’s speech, but began to walk towards the capital just before the speech was over. He was one of the first ones to get near the capital. As they were walking up to the capital, there were no fences or barriers and few police. As they neared the capital steps he did not think that there was any reason they were not supposed to be there. After they were already there, the fences were brought in and set up behind them. (That explains some of the video I have seen). As they were standing near the capital, they noticed an open door and one of his friends suggested they go in. My friend is a believer and he said that he got a feeling from God that it was not good for them to go in, so they did not. Other than his feeling, there was no indication that they were not allowed to go in and he noticed people calmly walking in and out. Their phones quit working just after they were notified of a coming curfew. They had a ways to walk so they decided they better head back to their hotel so they would not be out after curfew and most of the crowd did likewise. He said as they were walking toward the capital, there was no talk of violence, but instead the group was hoping to be a visual for those inside the capital to see how many people were there and thus be motivated to investigate the voter fraud claims.

And yet that crowd erected a gallows, chanted “hang Mike Pence”, beat a Metro DC police officer with their MAGA flags, bludgeoned and killed a Capitol police officer with a fire extinguisher, and crushed a Capitol police officer in a doorway while he screamed and they chanted “heave ho”. Your friend was fortunate that he wasn’t caught up in the violence.

I’m not shifting blame for anything. Just answering specific comments. Anyone involved in the disgusting and dangerous events last week should be investigated and prosecuted. Very simple.

As far as Democrats trying to overthrow an election: No, Trump’s tactics to keep power were crude, dangerous, and stupid, but characteristic of his typical speech. The Democrats attempts at reversing the results of the 2016 election were more sophisticated.

I highly recommend that every Republican read this book this year. It’s a great book and might help to correct some of the “your guy is more fascist than our guy” stuff. Republicans and democrats are both infected by socialism to different degrees and in different ways. Like “systemic”, “socialism” has become another useless word. It now only means “to the left of me.”
Republicans greatly increase the size of government every time they are in office. I am hoping that one good thing that comes out of all of the Trump craziness is that people do some reconsidering. It would be great to see republicans in particular taking stock to see if they fully understand various political systems. Public choice economics should be required reading so that people could understand what their vote will likely do.

“O consistency, thou art a rare jewel.” For those on the left, voting for Biden was not a vote for Biden, simply a protest vote against Trump. But the same voices will not allow anyone on the right to declare that their vote for Trump was not a vote in support of Trump, but a protest against Biden and the Democratic left.

You can’t have it both ways. If those who voted for Trump are responsible for everything Trump said and did, then those who voted for Biden (or failed to try to defeat Biden), must be equally responsible for everything that comes out of Washington over the next four years.

[Ken S]

And yet that crowd erected a gallows, chanted “hang Mike Pence”, beat a Metro DC police officer with their MAGA flags, bludgeoned and killed a Capitol police officer with a fire extinguisher, and crushed a Capitol police officer in a doorway while he screamed and they chanted “heave ho”.

Without justifying a single thing you just mentioned, you do realize that with a crowd the size of the one you can see in the videos it would be entirely possible to be in a completely peaceful group/section and not see any of that, right? Any time there is a large crowd, the dynamics and emotions of that many people can cause a lot of things to happen. We have to dispense with the idea that being in a public place and taking part in a legal demonstration includes taking part in anything illegal or morally wrong that may have happened by others who were nowhere near where you were. (But of course, the press certainly extends that to anyone taking place in leftist demonstrations, whether they were peaceful or not.)

None of that means it was a good idea to be there. While I have my questions about election irregularities, I can’t see any really good reason that the rally planned for last Wednesday would have really accomplished anything, and with emotions so high, it would have been a good rally to avoid. Even if I attended rallies normally (I don’t — I can count the number of political rallies I’ve attended in my >50 years on one hand), I would definitely pick them better than this.