What Is a Christian’s Duty to Unjust Government?

“This guy, angry that Grace Community Church yielded to the 9th Circuit Court’s ruling banning church meetings in California [last] weekend, Tweets at me: “An unjust law need not be followed. I’m appalled at how many people who profess to believe Scripture echo that sentiment.” - Phil Johnson

Discussion

[Mark_Smith]

Please.

The only “side” I’m on, if you’ve been paying any attention, is the justice, due process, legal and constitutional side. If the cops used excessive force that caused death, throw the book at them. If they didn’t, get off their backs. And don’t throw around accusations of racism unless/until there’s evidence of that (there is none so far). Wait for the justice system to work. Is that the “wrong” side? Sign me up.

You’re on the side of mob lynching, rush to judgment, inflame the public, ignore the law and move straight to punishment. I think that’s indefensible, noxious, and unbiblical.

Have you heard of the Tulsa riots in the early 20th century? The white citizens of Tulsa just knew for sure that a young black man had committed a crime, so they mobbed the courthouse/jail where he was and tried to drag him out to hang him. When they couldn’t, they burned the building down around him, killing him. Then they went on a spree through one of the most prosperous black commercial areas and neighborhoods in the country and laid it waste. That’s what happens when people follow your line of thinking. It’s not OK because in this instance it’s a white cop (but also an Asian, Latino, and a black cop) that you’re mad at.

[dmyers]
Mark_Smith wrote:

Please.

The only “side” I’m on, if you’ve been paying any attention, is the justice, due process, legal and constitutional side. If the cops used excessive force that caused death, throw the book at them. If they didn’t, get off their backs. And don’t throw around accusations of racism unless/until there’s evidence of that (there is none so far). Wait for the justice system to work. Is that the “wrong” side? Sign me up.

You’re on the side of mob lynching, rush to judgment, inflame the public, ignore the law and move straight to punishment. I think that’s indefensible, noxious, and unbiblical.

Have you heard of the Tulsa riots in the early 20th century? The white citizens of Tulsa just knew for sure that a young black man had committed a crime, so they mobbed the courthouse/jail where he was and tried to drag him out to hang him. When they couldn’t, they burned the building down around him, killing him. Then they went on a spree through one of the most prosperous black commercial areas and neighborhoods in the country and laid it waste. That’s what happens when people follow your line of thinking. It’s not OK because in this instance it’s a white cop (but also an Asian, Latino, and a black cop) that you’re mad at.

You need to reread what I wrote, sir. I am for the law. The real law that is compassionate as well and impartial. Blind justice. You read all kinds of things I never wrote into my post. I just do not believe it takes 4 days to figure out to arrest the killing police officer, and then to have not yet arrested the others. You can arrest while you figure it all out. Happens all the time.

I ask the officer to admit his crime and repent. Is that wrong?

I ask the union to admit this guy did the indefensible.

I ask other police to call what this guy did wrong.

I ask legislators to rewrite the laws to fix this injustice.

I also ask the President to not just seek justice for Floyd, but to vow to work with Pelosi and McConnell and the governors of each state to rewrite laws to fix this. To lead the country into fixing the injustice black and other minorties experience with the police.

Since Constitutionally speaking, due process applies equally to those “with and without a badge”, if we insist that a police officer get a lot of extra time before being arrested, the same would apply to…George Floyd. So if a quick arrest is proscribed for Mr. Chauvin and his colleagues, the same thing applies for Mr. Floyd.

Now the obvious objection is “given x y and z factors, we could not wait to arrest him. It’s a public safety issue.”

Well, that’s exactly my point regarding Mr. Chauvin. The fact that the police are getting a lot more grace with this is generally described as the “blue wall of silence”, and it’s one of the reasons people have been shooting police officers in the riots followed here. There is a real reason that the police need to reconsider the notion that they ought not be subject to the same processes that the rest of us are subject to.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

I talked with a high school friend last night. He was in federal law enforcement for 20 years. He said there is no way that what happened to George Floyd should have happened. He also explained that once a charge is made, then all the evidence has to be given to the defense. Until a charge is made they do not have to share the evidence they have. I tried to pin him down on what he was saying and got some vague answers, but the best I could conclude is that the DA wants to keep all their cards hidden while they are doing the investigation so that it is harder for the cops to bring a defense once the charges are made.

I have kind of mixed feelings about this. When someone is guilty, I want the charges to stick. I also am glad that anyone who is charged with a crime is able to know what the the evidence against them is. At the same time, I understand that sometimes it may be wise to not lay all the cards on the table until you are sure you have a really good hand. I am wondering if it comes down to them gathering more evidence than just the tapes, but they do not want those being charged to know what that evidence is until they get even more evidence. The more I hear the more complicated it sounds, but I hope others can still see how bad this can look when we don’t know what is going on behind the scenes and it looks like we have different sets of justice for different people groups.

Another thing that is shocking about the case is the inaction of the other officers. Look, anyone can have a bad day and go too far. The person you are arresting says or does something and you lose it. That is when the wisdom and patience of the other officers needs to kick in. That they did not stop the officer suggests this is a systemic problem in the police department.

[JD Miller]

I talked with a high school friend last night. He was in federal law enforcement for 20 years. He said there is no way that what happened to George Floyd should have happened. He also explained that once a charge is made, then all the evidence has to be given to the defense. Until a charge is made they do not have to share the evidence they have. I tried to pin him down on what he was saying and got some vague answers, but the best I could conclude is that the DA wants to keep all their cards hidden while they are doing the investigation so that it is harder for the cops to bring a defense once the charges are made.

I have kind of mixed feelings about this. When someone is guilty, I want the charges to stick. I also am glad that anyone who is charged with a crime is able to know what the the evidence against them is. At the same time, I understand that sometimes it may be wise to not lay all the cards on the table until you are sure you have a really good hand. I am wondering if it comes down to them gathering more evidence than just the tapes, but they do not want those being charged to know what that evidence is until they get even more evidence. The more I hear the more complicated it sounds, but I hope others can still see how bad this can look when we don’t know what is going on behind the scenes and it looks like we have different sets of justice for different people groups.

Not exactly correct. Regarding charges, the police officer has only been charged by the DA. That’s not the end of the charging process. He still has to be indicted by a grand jury before they can proceed to a trial. Of course, that’s normally easy to obtain, since only the prosecutor presents evidence to the grand jury, defense attorneys can’t appear at all, etc. But it still has to be done.

As for discovery in a criminal case, I’m not sure exactly when the prosecution is obligated to hand over exculpatory evidence, but it’s not right away, so delaying any charging activity doesn’t matter for that purpose. Whenever the obligation does kick in, the prosecutor has to hand over all exculpatory evidence, not necessarily all inculpatory evidence. The exculpatory evidence is called Brady evidence, after the Supreme Court case that established the prosecution’s obligation. Violation of Brady by the prosecution (withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense) is an excellent way to get a case or a conviction tossed out on appeal. In fact, violation of the Brady rule is part of the reason the DOJ reversed course on the prosecution of General Flynn — the U.S. attorneys prosecuting him held back quite a bit of evidence that would have or would have tended to have exonerated him.

This process is well known and would have applied to George Floyd as well, in one form or another. There aren’t different sets of justice for different people.

[Mark_Smith]
dmyers wrote:

Mark_Smith wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/new-video-of-george-floyd-s-arrest/…

Thank you for proving my point and disproving your own.

Is the man in the car? Answer: yes. His legs come up.

Are you saying 4 police can’t get one man in a car?

Tell you what, Mark. Find a muscled, 6’6”, 200+ pound man who is freaking out about getting into the back seat and goes either rigid or limp (or alternates), even with his hands cuffed, and see how easy it is for you and 3 other guys to get him in as he resists. You won’t be so smug after.

Basically, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

You wrote:

Is the man in the car? Answer: yes. His legs come up.

Are you saying 4 police can’t get one man in a car?

Yes, that is very likely. I have personally fought a combative man with three other military police officers and it took all of us to subdue him. He was under the influence of alcohol and prescription drugs. We eventually had to tie him to a stretcher to get him into an ambulance for transport to hospital.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Let’s suppose we have someone Mr. Floyd’s size—or even that hypothetical NFL lineman-type body—and he doesn’t want to go into the back of that squad car. He’s cuffed, he’s not going anywhere, right?

Well, what’s the hurry, then? The narrative “in the hood” is that blue beats you up, no? Perhaps instead of squeezing the guy into the back seat of an Explorer (40” head room and you’ve got to have his legs bent, etc..), put him in the back of a Transit with 5’3” of room to play with. He can straighten and bend all day, and he can still be put in there.

And if they watch a man be cuffed without too much struggle, and then carried by a group of men adequate to the task, into a vehicle well suited to the task, instead of struggling to get him in the back seat of an Explorer, maybe some attitudes will change. There are some parts of apprehension that are never going to look good, but for the others, maybe it’s time to consider a change of tactics to improve the optics.

It wouldn’t always succeed. One of the things coming out about the lead officer in this case, for example, is that he was more or less shown the door as a bouncer at a nightclub (the same one George Floyd worked at, interestingly) because his interactions with blacks always seemed to escalate to “need a few black & whites to handle this”, and his discipline/complaint record at the MPD is long. But perhaps if we substitute new methods where we’ve got known difficulties, we’ll get somewhere.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

I grew up just 4 blocks South & 5 (short) blocks East of the intersection where George Floyd died. As the crow flies, it’s maybe 1/2 mile at most. My parents still owned that house until two years ago, this month (they have both since passed away). It sold for $263K, up considerably from the $15K they paid (in cash) in 1962. At least two larger homes on the block are valued at $400K+. It’s not a terrible neighborhood.

The Cup Foods convenience store where Floyd allegedly passed the counterfeit $20 was Wilharm’s Drug Store in my youth. It had a classic, marble soda-fountain counter with swivel stools. Neighborhood families loved the terrific malts & banana splits served there.

I drove through that intersection the morning after Floyd’s death at about 5 am on my way to work. Having gone to bed early, I hadn’t yet seen the news. All was quiet at that time of the day, just 8 - 9 hours after the events of the night before. I didn’t know what had happened until I got to work.


[dmyers]
Mark_Smith wrote:

dmyers wrote:

Mark_Smith wrote:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/new-video-of-george-floyd-s-arrest/…

Thank you for proving my point and disproving your own.

Is the man in the car? Answer: yes. His legs come up.

Are you saying 4 police can’t get one man in a car?

Tell you what, Mark. Find a muscled, 6’6”, 200+ pound man who is freaking out about getting into the back seat and goes either rigid or limp (or alternates), even with his hands cuffed, and see how easy it is for you and 3 other guys to get him in as he resists. You won’t be so smug after.

Basically, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

Yep Tyler, he deserved getting choked out. What else can you do?

Let me rephrase. If the only way police can get a large man who is resisting into custody is to beat the tar out of him… we need new police tactics.

You wrote:

Yep Tyler, he deserved getting choked out. What else can you do?

Let me rephrase. If the only way police can get a large man who is resisting into custody is to beat the tar out of him… we need new police tactics.

You misunderstand. We responded to the scene because he called 911 for help and said he was dying. When we arrived, he was unconscious and unresponsive inside his barracks room. We could see this through his window. The door was locked. We had to kick the door down. He woke when we entered the room, and immediately attacked a female EMT who was trying to render aid. He threw her across the room, then attacked us. It took all of us to subdue him. He was so deadened by narcotics and alcohol that pressure points, joint manipulation and the other tools had no effect. We had to manhandle him to a stretcher and tie him to it to subdue him. Even after he got to the ER, he was still fighting.

Incidentally, if someone took a partial video of one aspect of that encounter, they would have seen four of us beating up one “innocent” man. There is always a larger context to a cell phone video. Sometimes that context rightly reinforces what you already assumed. Sometimes it changes the whole thing.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.