BJU's Steve Pettit on his meeting with John MacArthur

and it doesn’t seem to me that the changes have been that drastic. Maybe that’s because I favor them, and they are now more in line with my own practices. Be that as it may, most young people from solid Christian homes will still find BJU on the conservative spectrum of Christian schools. I recommend BJU to young people, and I’m thankful that we have several from our church who attend, while others are making plans to go. I find that our young people are more eager to attend because of recent changes and that there is a new enthusiasm for BJU that was previously missing. I believe this sentiment is reflected in many other conservative churches as well.

To describe the changes through the lens of my own subjective observation, BJU no longer feels “weird.” It has a normal, wholesome atmosphere now instead of the strangeness that existed when they tried not to change anything. It was, in my opinion, a confusion of doctrine with culture. Doctrine never changes. Culture does. The normal conservative Christianity of the 1960’s was beginning to feel abnormal by the 2000’s.

[AndyE]

I have two children there, a freshman and a junior, and I basically fall into that category. It’s a good question. Things are not the same there anymore and it has posed some challenges for my kids. There are things that I am deeply disappointed in, yet at the same time, as far as I can tell, my kids are thriving there. It has been really good for them. So, when I watched Dr. Pettit announce today that BJU would be cancelling classes through Spring Break, basically closing down the dorms, and finishing the semester online, I hurt for my kids. They have been preparing for concerts, getting excited about some upcoming social events, and enjoying their time there. Even though it’s not the “ideal” BJU experience from my perspective, it’s still way better than just sitting at home and doing classes at a computer.

This question is also for AndyE, brother Barkman and Don Johnson as well -

If I understand you correctly - you support/have supported BJU in the past (no complaints).
Would you - today, or after Horn’s installment, encourage a student from your church (or your own children - or someone you were training for ministry) to attend Master’s College and/or Seminary?
If not - why?

[CAWatson] This question is also for AndyE, brother Barkman and Don Johnson as well -

If I understand you correctly - you support/have supported BJU in the past (no complaints).

Would you - today, or after Horn’s installment, encourage a student from your church (or your own children - or someone you were training for ministry) to attend Master’s College and/or Seminary?

If not - why?

I have a brother that graduated from Master’s. It was funny when he messaged me one day to ask if I knew Sam Horn. Sam and I were in the same society and I think we graduated from BJU the same year (undergrad).

Regarding your question — no for the university and depends on the seminary. I suppose it is possible that things have changed to be more conservative at Master’s since when my brother went there, but in general I suspect that the music and other cultural issues would be too much for me to feel comfortable sending my kids there or recommending it. For seminary, if some one was older, more set in their ways, and lived near there, I could see how that might be a valid option. Most of my issues with them would not be doctrinal but more practical. I wouldn’t recommend it for someone who was young and impressionable. I”m not sure I agree with some of the elder rule polity that comes out of that camp. I wish Sam well when he goes there. I think it will be challenging for him.

Yes. I have done so in the past, and am pleased that I did. The young man from our church, a BJU graduate, really blossomed and is now leading a very effective ministry in another state. I don’t think he would have become a capable preacher or leader without his Master’s Seminary training.

Would I do it again? Maybe so, maybe not. It all depends upon the individual. Today, I would consider BJU Seminary a much stronger option than I did twenty years ago when I made the Master’s recommendation. I also recommend some other options (which I will not name on SI, so please don’t ask). It all depends upon the individual in question, his particular level of maturity, needs, etc. We have an older man getting ready to take early retirement, go to seminary, and prepare to teach at the seminary level. We have talked about his options, and he is still exploring several possibilities. He knows that whatever school he chooses will strongly influence which teaching opportunities will open to him after graduation. As a committed five point Calvinist and non-dispensationalist, neither Masters nor BJU seem like good options. Believe me, these considerations are never easy.

I didn’t address the college question above, only seminary, which is an entirely different matter. Knowing what I know today, I would not recommend Master’s college. My impression is that they are too loose with what most people call “standards” and I would not be happy putting my young people into that atmosphere. I’m afraid they didn’t keep the lid on when they could and should have, and now its next to impossible to put the cat back into the bag. I think they probably want to do so, and that may be a big factor in choosing Sam Horn. I wish him well. I fear he may have bitten off more than he can chew. I sincerely hope not.

Well, no, I have a lot of problems with Masters theologically and ecclesiastically. A young man from our church is there now, but I strongly urged him to look elsewhere. Nevertheless, we remain close and talk about once a month. I think academically Masters is fine and will help him a lot that way. But the theological issues will be a problem. I hope he doesn’t absorb their polity, completely unbiblical in my view.

FWIW, I am not recommending BJU these days either. We will see if that changes, depending on who replaces Horn, but I’m not holding my breath. I suspect BJU will end up as Masters East

If you don’t mind saying so, what colleges and seminaries do you recommend today?

[G. N. Barkman]

If you don’t mind saying so, what colleges and seminaries do you recommend today?

Off the top of my head, I’d say Maranatha, International, Central Seminary maybe PCC, Faith. There might be others I am forgetting.

I recognize there is no perfect school, nor would I see eye to eye on every jot and tittle with any school I’d recommend, but one hopes for a commitment to orthodoxy, separation, revival and holiness (personal separation, not the holiness movement).

Why Central but not Masters? What are the meanignful differences, other than the ecclesiology?

[TylerR]

Why Central but not Masters? What are the meanignful differences, other than the ecclesiology?

This would be a major and meaningful difference. Now, as I said above, I don’t march in lockstep with everything that any school I recommend supports. This document would be an example. There are a few points where I would either say the same thing in a different way or perhaps say something that contradicts one or two points. But in the main, this is the fundamentalist philosophy I was taught at BJU and which I would want to see perpetuated. I don’t think Masters would sign on this statement at all.

The FBFI has been BJU’s lap dog for decades (idiomatic meaning)

Finally bits back

Doesn’t draw blood

Yes this is a bit of a bait and switch, as I have never met MacArthur, but I have read nearly everything with his name on it. As a general rule, I agree with him. Yes, even on Calvinism combined with “leaky” Dispensationalism and even elder leadership.

I have attended an SBC church in my city for several years now (long story… you don’t want to know it). After earning a MDiv I wanted to put it to use. I started doing a lot of things, including preaching on Sunday PM. That is when I found out my theological thoughts were not what nearly everyone else at my church thought. I had suspected it from teaching Sunday School, but little did I know! I follow Al Mohler, Mark Dever, etc, so I thought the SBC was a safe place to be. It turns out a lot of SBC people have never even heard of them. Seriously.

So I’m preaching away for several weeks, no problem. I am then asked one day by a fellow about Ezekiel 37 (valley of dry bones). I like interesting topics for the Sunday PM sermon so I did a sermon series on Ez 34-39. It was a good series in my opinion. I learned a lot. But come to find out, let’s say my fellow church members are not Dispensational. They were shocked when I was telling them these prophecies are about Israel, and not you! God has a plan for Israel to bring them back to Him. The valley of dry bones is not about a music festival where we all sing ourselves into salvation (we had been singing a Bethel music song in the contemporary service that features this… look it up), or about Gentiles being filled with the Spirit of God. It is Israel. Period. Well, that got me in trouble.

When in trouble I tend to “fight” rather than run. So I then started preaching the gospel of John. Well, when I read John I see election and the sovereignty of God all over the place. John 1, 6, 10, 17. Its all over. Perseverance of the saints, definite atonement, all this stuff. Now I’m no dummy, so I ease into it given my experience with preaching Ezekiel 34-39. One day I am preaching on the use of the word “world” in John. How it means a lot of possible things, and it is not always “everyone”. I touched the third rail of theology, John 3:16 about the word “world”… I literally was shouted down in the pulpit. I found out in that shout down (and in subsequent conversations) that the church is about 98% Arminian (though they don’t know the name) in theology except they hold to Eternal Security. They really believe in prevenient grace (without the title, they don’t know the word) where Jesus paid for all sin except unbelief. There is no wrath of God towards unbelievers. To even mention wrath is anathema. I am still shocked.

Afterwards I got no support from my pastor who instead asked if I was open to being corrected in my error. I have not preached since them.

So, that was some personal stuff. The openness of evangelicals is not what you would think!

I am still trying to assess what to do as their beliefs are so different from mine that I cannot teach without a huge muzzle. I’m open to suggestions.

This sounds horrible. I believe you need to find a Reformed-ish, strongly dispensational church. These are hard to find. I would look for a church pastored by a Detroit or Central guy, if that’s even possible where you are. Barring that, perhaps a Reformed Baptist church is a better bet. It will be difficult to find both Reformed soteriology AND strong dispensationalism. Perhaps you may have to give on eschatology in favor of a “Big God” view of theology proper, soteriology and hamartiology.

Either way, you are in a difficult situation.

Mark — there are lots of subjects in the Bible, and even working through book of the Bible, you can’t cover everything. So, when you are in a church that doesn’t believe certain things that you do, I would not emphasize those things without first consulting the pastor. Normally what I do in those situations is say something along the lines of — well, you know there are various view regarding XYZ, but I’ll let the pastor sort those out with the church. Or something like that.