Adding Regular Corporate Shouting of Praise in Our Worship

I’m just asking if anyone thinks there shouldn’t be spontaneity in corporate worship.

I know that some disagree with me because I think it’s permissible. That’s not the question.

I think what Ron is getting at, again, is what the Prophets, Christ, and others mention repeatedly in the Scriptures, as exemplified in Matthew 15:8; “these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” And that is backed up by the very Hebrew word used here, which is not a verb meaning simply to shout, but rather to shout with joy. We need 3 words, the Hebrews economized.

And in that context and with that reality, our question becomes not a question of whether we ought to add corporate shouting, but rather the question of what our singing/etc. says about us. If it’s dead and joyless, there’s our problem. If we lock out expressions of our relationship with and our gratitude towards God, there’s our problem.

A great way of summing that up is in the noun “spontaniety.” Excessive requirements tend to lock it out.

I think what Ron is getting at, again, is what the Prophets, Christ, and others mention repeatedly in the Scriptures, as exemplified in Matthew 15:8; “these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”

That may be, but Ron actually mentioned spontaneity and so that is the question I am trying to pursue a bit. Matthew 15:8 is irrelevant to that question. If our singing or shouting is dead or joyless, it’s a problem. But that’s not the question. I think I have been more than sufficiently clear. Again, does something have to be spontaneous to be from the heart? Can planned responses and the lack of spontaneity also be from the heart?

What is the biblical warrant for individual spontaneity in corporate worship?

Clarification for Ron

I am questioning whether there should be spontaneity, or to what extent there should be particularly as an individual expression rather than a corporate one. If the spontaneity is “Let’s sing this song instead of the one we planned” that’s one thing. But should there be inidividuals yelling out during the service spontaneously and of their own accord?

I think a clear definition of “decently and in order” is required to be presented by those who hold that as a NT standard. I think they should also be willing to define when it is followed and ignored.

…..if indeed peoples’ hearts are close to Christ, than His praise in the church ought to need little encouragement, planning, or regulation. In short, it will be…..

spontaneous!

I think a clear definition of “decently and in order” is required to be presented by those who hold that as a NT standard. I think they should also be willing to define when it is followed and ignored.

The verse appears in teaching on the use of spiritual gifts in the assembly, probably particularly in gifts of tongues and prophecy, and there it seems to argue against spontaneity, but rather speaks to having order and limits in corporate worship. People are not just permitted to speak out in the assembly, right? They are limited both by when they can speak and how many can speak.

Again, the issue is, to what degree should an individual practice some individual and spontaneous outburst in the corporate assembly that is contrary to what everyone else is doing?

To cut to the chase, it seems to me that “corporate” means corporate, that what we do, we do together. I am not sure it is good for some individual to shout out during the assembly, doing something no one else is doing and calling attention to himself or herself and distracting others.

@Rajesh: Yes, the “decently and in order” requirement isn’t going away.

@Ron: How would “decently and in order” not be a NT standard, seeing that it’s in the NT? Aren’t we all required to grapple with how to apply it? That being said, I don’t think we’re going to be able to nail down a precise list of what is(n’t) decent and in order. In an earlier post, I argued that there’s probably something constant about human nature that we do need some “oomph” and volume (shouts) to express (as embodied creatures) what’s going on inside. And yet I think that’s going to look different from culture to culture.

@Larry: you wrote about people doing something “that is contrary to what everyone else is doing,” and this seems to be a good basic guideline for what is not acceptable spontaneity. Just as there are musical flourishes that go well with the melody and musical flourishes that are “off” and distracting, it would seem that a handful of people shouting “amen” when the preacher says something particularly convicting or encouraging helps to reinforce the truth of what the preacher has said, rather than distract from it. On the other hand, I’ve been in some services (perceived through my own cultural lens) where everything is getting “amen-ed” with the same intensity, and that seems to blend everything into an indistinguishable froth.

An example of something we have to consider at our church: we had a guy baptized within the last quarter. He gave his testimony about how he had had to give up a relationship with a woman to follow Christ. A sister (non-member but visits frequently) of a more charismatic bent (and from a Caribbean culture) jumped up, praised the Lord, and was more or less dancing in the center aisle. Which is really funny because the brother being baptized has been influence by Paul Washer, John MacArthur, and very conservative individuals. He just kept on giving his testimony, and the church leadership let the lady do her thing and she sat down. If that became a regular occurrence, would we address it? Honestly, I’d have to weigh that based on very specific factors. She sits in the back; people around her don’t seem to mind; probably we’d address it if she makes it hard for the pastor to preach or for people to hear the main thread of what’s being said.

…..if indeed peoples’ hearts are close to Christ, than His praise in the church ought to need little encouragement, planning, or regulation. In short, it will be…..spontaneous!

Why will it be spontaneous?

My guess is your church doesn’t actually practice that either in singing or in preaching. Probably not in the offering, Communion, or baptisms. Those things are planned ahead of time by people whose hearts are close to Christ.

But to your point, no one here, to my knowledge, is discussing whether we should worship with “hearts close to Christ” or “hearts far from Christ” (those I don’t think either of those are biblical terms).

The only question being discussed is spontaneity—whether individuals should have individual outbursts in the midst of corporate worship that risks detracting from the worship and from the one we are actually worshipping. Surely we can have a spontaneous response that isn’t out loud, or we can have a spontaneous response that is corporate.

@Ron: How would “decently and in order” not be a NT standard, seeing that it’s in the NT?

I didn’t say it wasn’t.

Just because someone asks a question about a premise, it doesn’t mean that that person is questioning the premise.

[RajeshG]

Here is something I wrote elsewhere that provides more biblical support for corporately shouting, “Amen, Hallelujah.”

[RajeshG]

Psalm 106:48 specifies that all the people were to say, “Amen, Praise ye the Lord.” Revelation 19:4 has all the elders and all the beasts doing the same thing. Based on those two passages, what I believe is warranted is for everyone to say the same words all together at the same time.

The way I read those two passages, they don’t specify that the words have to be in a unison, all-together-now, chant. Sure, they could be done that way, but the verses can also be understood as everyone individually, one by one, saying the words. All the people would then be saying it, right? Or the people could be saying it together but unorganized, with some starting it in the middle of others saying it and some repeating it while others say it once. That way would also be in line with the verses, right?

Also, we have passages where one person leads a group of people in corporate prayer but to my knowledge we do not have such passages for one person shouting, “Amen, Hallelujah,” for a whole group of people.

8 And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.

9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

I’ve always pictured that scene as individual people shouting those phrases individually, with much overlap and not necessarily in that order. Those are just the phrases people were shouting. Do you see that scene as an organized, in unison, shout?

[Larry]

Part of the nature of corporate worship is that it is corporate. What is the biblical warrant for an individual to do something individual in corporate worship?

And what is the warrant for spontaneity as a biblical category of corporate worship? We don’t really apply that to much do we?

[RajeshG]

Having all worshipers act in unison best accords with a natural reading of both Psalm 106:48 and Revelation 19:4 and does not conflict with what we are taught in 1 Corinthians 14 about everything having to be done decently and in order. To minimize the potential for creating confusion and disorderliness, it would be best for all the people to act in unison.

Because the Triumphal Entry (Mark 11:8-10) was a one-time event and not an aspect of corporate worship that was authorized by God for continual observance, what happened on that occasion is not authoritative in all its particulars for what we should do in corporate worship.

The argument that some things in Scripture are not authorized by God for continual observance is the same argument I would make for verses that deal with Israelite worship in the Old Testament. We are in the Church Age now, so verses that deal with the way Israelites worshipped God may be profitable for us to understand, they are not necessarily applicable to us today “for what we should do in corporate worship.” Would you agree?

[RajeshG]

Kevin Miller wrote:

Doesn’t the line between “individual” and “corporate” become a little fuzzy when we talk about individual believers gathering together for corporate worship? For example, when the offering plate is passed, and we put our money in it, is our act of giving an individual act of worship or are we participating in corporate worship by giving together. It seems to me it’s a bit of both, so individual acts can certainly be a part of corporate worship.

One important consideration to keep in mind is that what is done when an offering is taken is preplanned and orderly. Another is that giving in an offering is not an aspect of our verbal worship about which God has given us controlling considerations in 1 Corinthians 14 and elsewhere.

I’m not sure what difference the “verbal” part plays in regards to whether an act of worship is individual or corporate or both. Perhaps you could explain why that would be an important consideration to keep in mind.

[RajeshG]

Yes, not everything about Israel’s worship necessarily applies to us today. I am not basing what I am saying in this thread merely on what the Israelites did in worship.

The reason I brought up the Triumphal Entry was because you said you couldn’t think of any passages that had individuals shouting in a group of people. The shouting done during the Triumphal Entry certainly seemed to me to be individuals shouting various phrases. Earlier in the thread, I wondered if shouting was simply something that was part of Israelite culture, and you told me that the command to shout was given to all people and that all of the Bible is profitable to us for our doctrine and practice. So i was rather surprised that you immediately dismissed my passage of Scripture as not being applicable to our corporate worship. I understand your reasoning, since there are a lot of things about Israelite worship practices that I don’t think are applicable to us today, whether they were part of one-time events or whether they were regular temple practices. As I said, I’m just surprised that YOU made that point.

Doesn’t the line between “individual” and “corporate” become a little fuzzy when we talk about individual believers gathering together for corporate worship? For example, when the offering plate is passed, and we put our money in it, is our act of giving an individual act of worship or are we participating in corporate worship by giving together. It seems to me it’s a bit of both, so individual acts can certainly be a part of corporate worship.

Perhaps but not really. The act of giving doesn’t take place whenever you feel like it. There is a time that everyone does it together. So with singing, you don’t pick your own song to sing and then belt it out. You sing what everyone else is singing. Why is speaking different? You can imagine the distraction (perhaps even chaos) if people did giving and singing the way some do shouting … whenever they feel like it and whatever they feel like.

Why is speaking different? You can imagine the distraction (perhaps even chaos) if people did giving and singing the way some do shouting … whenever they feel like it and whatever they feel like.

Exactly. This is the very reason why Paul had to admonish the church in 1 Cor. 14:26-40 - because the church worship gatherings were a chaotic disaster with people speaking whenever they felt led to do so.