Bible passages that guide us about secular/unbelieving criticisms of Christian worship music/ministry?
“If you sing pop lyrics, you are going to have a problem with your ministry because rock n’ roll by definition, and popular music, is about sexuality.” A judge then interjected, “And demons.” Simmons then repeated, “And demons.”
— Gene Simmons, a famous rock musician; transcribed from a video clip from an episode where he appeared on American Idol
Should Christians care about what secular/unbelieving people say in negative comments such as these about the worship music/ministry of certain Christians? What Bible passages do you think guide us in knowing what to do with such comments?
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[GregH]“If we are going to start taking random anonymous comments on blog posts very seriously, we are fools of the first order.”Um no, I did not call you a fool. I did say you are foolish in regards to how much value you are placing on a random comment on a blog. I am foolish about things as well but I don’t consider myself a fool either.
You are foolish to allow your bias about music to compromise your thinking and scholarship on this issue. Many things you have said about music on these threads are foolish in my opinion.
Not only did you assert that I was among those who are “fools of the first order,” but you also did it on a factually wrong basis. The comment was not an anonymous comment on a blog post.
[RajeshG] I believe that his use of that wording was not in keeping with the SI policy and more importantly, with proper standards of Christian conduct.
Since we are going to cite the comment’s policy it’s here:
Wear your, as they say, big-boy pants. Human interaction is messy—especially where strong opinions are involved. Discussions go far better when participants are slow to take offense. If someone’s a bit prickly, why not just ignore it and stay on topic? Sure, it’s bad to be rude. It’s not much better to be a cry baby.
[Jim]I am not projecting on you. I find it very troubling that you as a moderator did not have a problem with someone commenting to the effect that I was among “the fools of the first order.”RajeshG wrote:
… whose comments and actions you approved of and did not think were problematic …You are projecting a motive upon me! Not gonna stick!
More from the CP… and the more relevant portions, I would suggest.
Aim to be consistently respectful. If you get involved in discussions on controversial topics, someone will think you’re being disrespectful sooner or later. You want to make sure they’re wrong about that.
Try to stay on topic. This is a famously subjective call. Do your best. If you think your comment might be seen as unrelated, include something to help us see the connection.
Broaden your horizons. If you always harp on one or two topics and rarely show any interest in others, people will tend to dismiss you as a crank.
Focus on ideas. The old adage “consider the source” has its merits, but the source of an idea never really proves it to be true or false. When a discussion is on a controversial topic, extra effort is required to leave irrelevant factors out of it. So going after somebody’s intelligence or educational background or gender or age or favorite cricket team is usually not helpful to making your point or refuting theirs.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Jim]I think that I have proven amply that I am not a “cry baby.” I think that a line was crossed, but you disagree. So be it.RajeshG wrote:
I believe that his use of that wording was not in keeping with the SI policy and more importantly, with proper standards of Christian conduct.Since we are going to cite the comment’s policy it’s here:
Wear your, as they say, big-boy pants. Human interaction is messy—especially where strong opinions are involved. Discussions go far better when participants are slow to take offense. If someone’s a bit prickly, why not just ignore it and stay on topic? Sure, it’s bad to be rude. It’s not much better to be a cry baby.
[GregH]Another factually incorrect statement by you. I have never said anything to the effect that I “don’t like the instruments they use.” Since you like linking to my blog, you should go and read the detailed treatments that I have done about the use of musical instruments.Here is what I find ironic. I love how when someone challenges you and those of your belief system, you get offended and start talking about proper standards of Christian conduct. And yet, you guys fairly ignorantly broadbrush an entire industry of fellow Christians in an almost slanderous way because you don’t like the instruments they use. You do know you will be in heaven with many of those drummers and guitarists right?
[RajeshG]GregH wrote:
Um no, I did not call you a fool. I did say you are foolish in regards to how much value you are placing on a random comment on a blog. I am foolish about things as well but I don’t consider myself a fool either.
You are foolish to allow your bias about music to compromise your thinking and scholarship on this issue. Many things you have said about music on these threads are foolish in my opinion.
“If we are going to start taking random anonymous comments on blog posts very seriously, we are fools of the first order.”
Not only did you assert that I was among those who are “fools of the first order,” but you also did it on a factually wrong basis. The comment was not an anonymous comment on a blog post.
Rajesh, I apologize for indirectly calling you a fool.
My feelings of irony remain. What is good for the goose… You need to either get thicker skin or maybe decide to extend a little more courtesy to those that you blast away at here and on your blog. You basically are on a mission to invalidate the ministries of thousands of people because their music is not your preference. By the way, I have yet to see any evidence that your preferences even have any musical knowledge behind them. I think that is important.
[josh p]Jethro may have become a believer prior to his giving Moses that advice:I have to agree with Rajesh that some of the criticism has crossed the line.
As I believe was said earlier, personally I would say that I am more likely to listen to an unbeliever on issues of common grace “If you then being evil know how to give good gifts to your children…” than specific practices within the church service. If my neighbor wants to give me advise on building a fence I’m all ears. If he wants to tell me how to undertake a spiritual act I’m going to politely say no thank you.
One other section that might have some insight is Jethro’s advise to Moses (Ex. 18) to delegate some of his judging responsibilities. I have always understood him to be an unbeliever (could be wrong on that) yet Moses listened to the advise. Still, that is a little different than Gene Simmons since he was connected with the group and wasn’t really giving sprititual advise.
Exodus 18:8 And Moses told his father in law all that the LORD had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel’s sake, and all the travail that had come upon them by the way, and how the LORD delivered them. 9 And Jethro rejoiced for all the goodness which the LORD had done to Israel, whom he had delivered out of the hand of the Egyptians. 10 And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. 11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
These verse precede the advice that he gave to Moses and Moses’ heeding of that advice (Exod. 18:13-27). If he did not become a believer at that time, he would be another example of the basic idea that unbelievers at times can give sound spiritual counsel.
[GregH]Greg, apology accepted. Thanks.Rajesh, I apologize for indirectly calling you a fool.
My feelings of irony remain. What is good for the goose… You need to either get thicker skin or maybe decide to extend a little more courtesy to those that you blast away at here and on your blog. You basically are on a mission to invalidate the ministries of thousands of people because their music is not your preference. By the way, I have yet to see any evidence that your preferences even have any musical knowledge behind them. I think that is important.
Hmm. We have already had too much “fun” for one evening so I will not comment any further about the rest of your remarks. The Lord be with you.
[TylerR]I agree that Proverbs 11:14 is an important passage. I do believe that there is a passage that addresses what I am after. We have already had a long battle over that passage in a previous thread with nearly everyone concluding that I am a horrible exegete who loves to practice eisegesis, etc. As I said to you in that thread, I hope to bring out the full significance of that passage in a series of blog posts sometime this year.Do you think there is an explicit verse or passage that addresses what you’re after? I think context matters. It all depends on who the person is, whether he’s credible, what his complaint is, and the context of your own congregation’s corporate worship. It’s worth considering the comment, though. I still think Proverbs 11:14 applies best, because we can’t go far beyond general principles without an explicit statement and context.
Since my attempts to treat that passage were soundly rejected by many in a previous thread, I am not interested in any discussion of that passage in this thread. That passage is not the only passage that applies, and I do want to see what other passages people may come up with.
I do not remember having considered the Jethro passage much before in this regard so that was one helpful outcome of this thread. Perhaps, there will be others that I have not seen as well.
Rajesh:
I wish you’d explain your position here, and explain how it answers your question. Surely, if you wish to have a discussion, it would be an important step forward to stake out your position? But, I understand if you wish to not do so.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
[TylerR]No thanks, Tyler. I have gone back and reread all the comments on that thread and have no desire to be assaulted over that passage again.Rajesh:
I wish you’d explain your position here, and explain how it answers your question. Surely, if you wish to have a discussion, it would be an important step forward to stake out your position? But, I understand if you wish to not do so.
Still scratching my head. I get that we know Rajesh has strong opinions on Topic A, but why all the hostility to letting him have the conversation he wants to have—and started—in this particular thread?
I can’t help but wonder if his beliefs on Topic A just make many so uncomfortable, they come all unglued at the very idea of having a cogent conversation with him. But I have to admit to not really knowing what the motivations are. Hence the head scratching.
But please observe that, at least originally, there wasn’t even supposed to be a debate in this thread. The OP doesn’t make any claims to support or for someone else to refute. This is, again, why the views at his blog (much less, his motives in general) are not relevant.
There’s nothing wrong with asking him what his position is on this or that, but please understand that this a step toward hijacking the thread. When somebody starts a thread, they get the lion’s share of influence over what it’s about. That’s netiquette 101.
So, to review, Rajesh asked about Scriptures that relate to ministry advice from an unbeliever. He used a CCM-related example, but later indicated he didn’t really want to go into CCM in general as the topic. The polite and Golden Rule thing to do is honor that. Sure, given how passionate he is on that topic, it’s likely he wants to go there eventually fine. Let him go there when he feels ready to go there… or not, if he decides he’d rather not… or go there and change is mind and try to go back if he wants. Where’s the harm in that?
I also don’t think there is a whole to say on the original topic, but that’s not up to me either. It’s not my thread.
So, back to the topic. I posted a bullet list earlier and said I might bring Scripture references later, so there they are:
Scriptures on ministry advice from unbelievers
There isn’t much in Scripture directly on the topic, and of course, nothing at specifically on “music advice.” But some pretty clear themes help frame it…
- The head of the church is Christ, and His direction is the only direction that must be headed (Col. 1:18)
- Wisdom cries out in the streets: the principle is that you can find bits of wisdom anywhere and everywhere, but it has to be sifted out and recognized (it makes sense to seek wisdom in places it is most likely to be found!) (Prov. 8:1-3)
- Occasional examples of unbelievers having some insight to offer do occur in Scripture. (Gamaliel: Acts 5:34-36, maybe Jethro: Exod. 18:1-2. See also Luke 16:8)
- Common grace means God blesses all sorts of humans with all sorts of abilities we can all benefit from (Matt. 5:45)
- Every human is made in the image of God and is, therefore, capable of knowing truth and expressing it (Gen. 1:26)
- All truth claims have to be weighed and judged by what we know to be true in special revelation (1 Tim. 3:16, 2 Cor. 10:5)
Apologies for all the typos. In a bit of a hurry.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron, the reason many (myself included) have responded to the example Rajesh gives is that his motivations are so transparent. One thing we have to remember is that just as Gene Simmons almost certainly has ulterior motives in what he says (keeping the KISS gravy train going really), so does Rajesh, and in this case, history suggests it’s “any stick with which to beat CCM”.
Moreover, in doing so, he’s committing some huge fallacies of informal logic—appeal to false authority, guilt by association—as well as bringing comments to the fore where anyone who understands the situation is going to interpret them quite differently than he does. One thing to keep in mind as he does this is that if we determine that all questions but the one he says he wants answered are out of bounds, we have basically conceded the argument to him—no matter what the deficiencies of his logic and evidence, and no matter how clear his motivations are.
We might also answer that Rajesh’s critics have indeed implicitly answered how we ought to address the truth claims of unbelievers; critically, just as with those of believers. We apply the rules of logic and evidence, just like Scripture says, and in this case, it’s probably best to say “saying stuff like this is how Gene Simmons gets the dollars to keep Shannon Tweed more or less happy.” It means precisely nothing to the question of whether one form of music or another is appropriate to use in praising God.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Should Christians care about what secular/unbelieving people say in negative comments such as these about the worship music/ministry of certain Christians? What Bible passages do you think guide us in knowing what to do with such comments?
I would answer no, we shouldn’t care to “walk in the counsel of the ungodly”. In this particular performance critiques by Simmons, the song “In the Still of the Night” was neither sexual or demonic, making Simmons generalization meaningless in this instance.
As to Biblical examples, while there are a few examples of good advice given to believers from unbelievers, there are many more examples of them giving bad advice. Enough so that it is safe to question their credibility.
For examples of bad counsel, consider Job’s 3 friends and Rehoboam’s buddies.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
I’ve received great advice from unbelievers - examples:
- Insurance: Have an umbrella policy
- Taxes: Use a donor advised fund to bunch contributions
- Investing: Many positive examples. But here’s the worst one: “pay yourself first”
I was referring to advice on ministry and my relationship with and worship of God. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
I pay attention to “Bubba”, my mechanic, when it comes to my car, but I think his advice on worship matters might be questionable.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[Ron Bean]I was referring to advice on ministry and my relationship with and worship of God. Sorry I wasn’t clear.
I pay attention to “Bubba”, my mechanic, when it comes to my car, but I think his advice on worship matters might be questionable.
As for the KISS guy … don’t trust his evaluation on anything
Mod Note: Rajesh, when quoting, please delete everything except the part you are directly responding to.
Aaron,
I have conducted myself honorably before the Lord in all of my interactions on SI and have acted in full accord with all the stated policies of SI. Those who have borne witness to their failure to do so should be dealt with properly in keeping with these stated policies:
C. Do not engage in rude or other un-Christlike conduct, including—but not limited to the following:derogatory name-calling or attacks on the motives of other participants
I have no need to defend myself against comments that are in violation of these policies and will not be dignifying them with any further remarks.
[RajeshG]Aaron,
I have conducted myself honorably before the Lord in all of my interactions on SI and have acted in full accord with all the stated policies of SI. Those who have borne witness to their failure to do so should be dealt with properly in keeping with these stated policies…
Fortunately, there are no mandatory minimum sentences… Your idea of ignoring what isn’t relevant is probably the most effective way to keep a discussion focused—or get it focused again. Nothing works every time, but that approach works better than most.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer]If he or other people continue to make statements maligning me concerning my motives, am I just supposed to ignore them when they are in clear violation of SI’s policies?Fortunately, there are no mandatory minimum sentences… Your idea of ignoring what isn’t relevant is probably the most effective way to keep a discussion focused—or get it focused again. Nothing works every time, but that approach works better than most.
As the senior Admin on another discussion board, all I can say is, that’s what the flag button is for. The mods here can’t take action on what isn’t reported to them.
[RajeshG]SNIP
If he or other people continue to make statements maligning me concerning my motives, am I just supposed to ignore them when they are in clear violation of SI’s policies?
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
[Rob Fall]Thanks for the tip. I pray that it will not continue.As the senior Admin on another discussion board, all I can say is, that’s what the flag button is for. The mods here can’t take action on what isn’t reported to them.
To use a basketball officiating analogy … we are in the playoffs and the refs “let ‘em play”
Article
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Cavs-defensive-ace-gl…
Things get a little rough and tumble here … I am obviously biased b/c I can get snarky but we have been fair with you
You’ve been, what I would observe, “called out” on a perceived agenda. I’ve done that and I do not apologize for that.
If we were face to face brother to brother I would be as blunt with you as I am now writing: I’ve rarely seen someone whine as much as you do. Sorry …. someone had to say it. This does not violate the comment policy at all. You might respond “it’s off topic”. But it is on topic because you have complained about the officiating.
My view:
This is:
- On topic
- Does not violate the comment policy
- Is kinda funny!
- HT: my brother from another mother. You know who you are!
[Jim]Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.My view:
[Image removed by Aaron]
This is:
- On topic
- Does not violate the comment policy
- Is kinda funny!
- HT: my brother from another mother. You know who you are!
[Jim]What I am curious about is why you bother getting snarky in the first place. Are you so dead set against perceived agendas that you want to derail any thread in which they appear? Do you need to prove to others just how funny you are? Sorry to be blunt here myself, but i just don’t see the point. Why keep piling on when you know the other person doesn’t appreciate the “humor”? Are you just trying to get a further reaction? It seem to me that that’s what bullies do. Then the bully blames the target for “whining” or for not being able to handle the “rough and tumble” or not having “big boy pants.”Things get a little rough and tumble here … I am obviously biased b/c I can get snarky but we have been fair with you
As a moderator, you shouldn’t be acting this way. You probably should stay out of commenting at all, or else resign as a moderator.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
[Aaron Blumer]Here are four more Bible passages that pertain to this topic.So, back to the topic. I posted a bullet list earlier and said I might bring Scripture references later, so there they are:
Scriptures on ministry advice from unbelievers
There isn’t much in Scripture directly on the topic, and of course, nothing at specifically on “music advice.” But some pretty clear themes help frame it…
- Occasional examples of unbelievers having some insight to offer do occur in Scripture. (Gamaliel: Acts 5:34-36, maybe Jethro: Exod. 18:1-2. See also Luke 16:8)
1. Exodus 10:7 And Pharaoh’s servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?
These servants were unbelievers. They saw the mighty works of God, but were not convinced to repent and turn to Him. They counseled Pharaoh to let the Israelites go to worship their [the Israelites’] God so that further destruction would not come upon the Egyptians. They gave sound advice to Pharaoh that he should have heeded.
2. 2 Kings 5:13 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?
Naaman was proudly refusing to heed the prophet’s direction for him to be healed. Naaman’s servants correctly counseled him to heed the godly advice that was given to him.
3. Esther 6:13 And Haman told Zeresh his wife and all his friends every thing that had befallen him. Then said his wise men and Zeresh his wife unto him, If Mordecai be of the seed of the Jews, before whom thou hast begun to fall, thou shalt not prevail against him, but shalt surely fall before him.
Haman’s wife and his wise men correctly told Haman that he would not prevail against Mordecai because he was of the seed of the Jews. They said that Haman would surely fall. Had Haman listened to the proper spiritual advice given to him in his situation by these lost people and changed his course, perhaps he may have been spared.
4. John 18:13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year. 14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
Caiaphas, a wicked man, gave counsel to the Jews that pertained to truth far beyond what he or any of his people understood.
These are four additional examples of unbelievers speaking spiritual truth in specific situations concerning specific matters.
The next question is the “so what?” part. If we grant that all of these are examples of unbelievers giving good advice to believers (which is debatable in a few cases), what does that prove?
It proves only what we already knew: that being unregenerate doesn’t rob one entirely of the God-given ability to know and communicate truth (because of imago dei, and because of common grace).
What it doesn’t do is support the conclusion that every unbeliever’s advice is good advice…. Which leaves us in the position of having to weigh the merits of advice regardless of the sort of person it’s coming from. People we respect and admire can be wrong. People we have a low opinion of can be right.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I agree with Aaron. Unbelievers can make factual statements, and can have good insight. I don’t think that is a revolutionary concept. However, this doesn’t touch the issue of whether they’re actually correct about music, if they make such a statement. No matter who makes a statement, Christian or not, you still have to weigh whether it’s objectively true, don’t you? I’m not sure what point you’re making with the verses you cite. I am interested to hear you elaborate a bit.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
I think we all agree that the Bible has examples of both good and bad spiritual advice being given to God’s people by those outside the faith. That’s where discernment comes in.
In the particular example given in the OP, I think that Gene Simmons is wrong. I am certain that singing a song like “In the Still of the Night” is not going to cause this worship leader any problems in his particular ministry or church or, for that matter, in most of evangelicalism. It probably would create problems in a ministry with a strong stand for traditional Christian music and against CCM and pop music. Again, discernment is needed.
BTW, considering his background, I wouldn’t take Gene Simmons advice on anything. (That’s why the meme is funny.)
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
One thing that ought to be mentioned here is that the “traditionalist” argument is more or less arguing that certain genre of music are inherently “sensual” or “worldly”—in other words, sinful—and hence we would have to conclude that those who listen to such music or even tolerate it are sinning as well.
In that light, if one makes the argument without rhetorically “bringing the goods”, it really does amount to slander. So if you want to engage, bring a good argument, be prepared to discuss its implications, and above all, put on your big boy pants, because you’re picking a fight. It’s that simple.
One side note; regarding not taking Gene Simmons’ advice on anything, he’s still subject to common grace and can get some things right. He stays away from intoxicants, is multilingual, expresses appreciation to soldiers for what they do, and a few more things. Won’t get him to Heaven, but he’s still subject to common grace, and I’m not going to apply a “guilt by association” fallacy to him, either.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Aaron Blumer]Which ones do you think are debatable and what do you think is debatable about them?The next question is the “so what?” part. If we grant that all of these are examples of unbelievers giving good advice to believers (which is debatable in a few cases), what does that prove?
It proves only what we already knew: that being unregenerate doesn’t rob one entirely of the God-given ability to know and communicate truth (because of imago dei, and because of common grace).
What it doesn’t do is support the conclusion that every unbeliever’s advice is good advice…. Which leaves us in the position of having to weigh the merits of advice regardless of the sort of person it’s coming from. People we respect and admire can be wrong. People we have a low opinion of can be right.
[TylerR]All four of these passages are divine revelation. Why not focus on profiting from each of them instead of “putting all your marbles” on ultimate application about music, etc? What do these verses teach us about statements by unbelievers?I agree with Aaron. Unbelievers can make factual statements, and can have good insight. I don’t think that is a revolutionary concept. However, this doesn’t touch the issue of whether they’re actually correct about music, if they make such a statement. No matter who makes a statement, Christian or not, you still have to weigh whether it’s objectively true, don’t you? I’m not sure what point you’re making with the verses you cite. I am interested to hear you elaborate a bit.
[josh p]Josh, what do you think these texts reveal in connection with this topic broadly speaking (not specifically about music)?Rajesh please do elaborate. It sounds like we have pretty well exhausted the Bible passages that may pertain (emphasis on may) so let’s hear how you decide when to heed their advise and when not to.
There is much more revelation that pertains that needs to be considered to have a theologically comprehensive understanding of the capabilities of unbelievers before proper applications can be made.
I apologize for the hyperbole Bert. If I were standing in the road and Gene Simmons told me to move, I’d take his advice. I’d retain the right to exercise discernment on any advice I’m given.
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
[RajeshG]Josh, what do you think these texts reveal in connection with this topic broadly speaking (not specifically about music)?
I would say that some those verses tell us that unbelievers can teach us certain things. That’s pretty vague but I don’t see enough there to develop much behind that. I also think that there are plenty of verses that demonstrate that the Noetic effect of the fall has left the carnal man without the ability to reason in a God honoring way (1 Cor. 2 for example). In other words if an unbeliever can, by common grace, stumble upon the truth sometimes great. I’m still not giving his advise nearly as much heed as the one who has the Spirit of God indwelling him and teaching him all things. I will make application for the furtherance of the discussion. I would at least consider the input of the most extreme ccm artist over one who is dead in their trespasses in sin. When it comes to something like investing as Jim pointed out that would be different.
[josh p]I would say that some those verses tell us that unbelievers can teach us certain things. That’s pretty vague but I don’t see enough there to develop much behind that. I also think that there are plenty of verses that demonstrate that the Noetic effect of the fall has left the carnal man without the ability to reason in a God honoring way (1 Cor. 2 for example). In other words if an unbeliever can, by common grace, stumble upon the truth sometimes great. I’m still not giving his advise nearly as much heed as the one who has the Spirit of God indwelling him and teaching him all things. I will make application for the furtherance of the discussion. I would at least consider the input of the most extreme ccm artist over one who is dead in their trespasses in sin. When it comes to something like investing as Jim pointed out that would be different.
In formulating our understanding on any subject, it is vital for us to account for all the biblical data that pertains. When that is done, the image of God in man, “common grace,” and the noetic effects of sin are important considerations, but they are insufficient to account for and explain all that Scripture reveals.
The counsel given by Caiaphas, for example, is not explained by any of these factors. There are other passages as well that similarly cannot be explained by any of those considerations.
Ezekiel 16:27, which I shared earlier, shows us that the noetic effects of sin do not nullify the ability of unbelievers to form valid judgments about the sinfulness of those who profess to be God’s people when those professing people of God become more sinful than unbelievers or sin in blatant ways that even unbelievers know are not fitting for those who profess to be the people of God.
We must account for all such passages in order to make proper applications and assessments.
Discussion