Piper on Exodus 33:13: "This verse prevents us from assuming is that, if God’s favor is conditional, it is therefore not unconditional."
[Paul J. Scharf] Jay and Charlie — You both make a great point. I do not want to be known for demonizing instead of interacting on a serious level.
It just seems like right now I am finding lots of people representing two extremes: either good ol’ boy fightin’ fundamentalism or else those who are reacting and turning to things like the teachings of Piper. I think there are far better alternatives.
Paul, I just wanted to let you know that I wasn’t throwing stones at you personally - just commenting on the way things have typically operated in the IFB realm. I think that it’s an aspect of the IFB kingdom that needs to die. :)
Aaron, what you just said reminds me a lot of Hebrews 5:11-14 and I Cor. 3:1-4. Piper’s definitely not for new Christians, but he was what I needed back in 2000 [?] to provoke me to take my faith more seriously.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jamie Hart] If I limited my reading / listening to guys with whom I agree 100%…well…I’d have a lot more shelf (and MP3 player) space!
Jamie,
This is very true, however, time and resources are limited. I listen to many sermons every week on the radio, on CD/cassette and online. Some of them are from people I disagree with. For instance, I have listened to hundreds of hours worth of James Kennedy in my lifetime. But I generally limit my listening and reading to “the best of the best,” simply because time and resources are limited.
From what I have seen of Piper, I would not personally put him in the category where he deserves that kind of attention. Obviously, you and many other good men would disagree with that — which is fine.
Lately, it just seems that everyone who wants to be a “cool” fundamentalist has to find a place to say, “John Piper said…” I was stating a counter opinion why I am not ready to “join the movement.” :)
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
[Aaron Blumer] Funny that you mentioned Desiring God. Finally got around to reading that a few months ago (haven’t quite finished yet though… it’s audio and awaits a road trip!), and it’s a prime example of what I mean. I disagreed with him emphatically in several places but there is no denying that first I had to think about some things I had never really thought about before. Which is why I wasn’t able to finish the book on that trip. Had to turn it off and chew on things for an hour or two.
To me, this is the mark of a great read, even if I buy 0% of the ideas in the end. Not only am I challenged to deal with questions I haven’t dealt with before, but they are very important questions.
Totally agree, Aaron. There’s a great value in thinking in new ways and if one stays in his “box” he will never be challenged. I too disagreed with Piper in some areas…but the premise of the book was, for me, life-changing. God meant for us to ENJOY Him! What a great truth!
[Aaron Blumer] On the other hand, there are some I would not recommend DG to. They are not ready to deal with it. And there are some books that lots of believers will never be “ready” to read. So, like with so many things, there are those who can and should dig into it personally with the primary sources, and there are those who are better off getting the “low down” second hand. The labeling and boxing is really little more than second evaluation in compressed form.
Sadly, there are some in the first group (who should go to the source and check it out) who settle for the second behavior instead.
With you here as well…with some slight explanations. There are some truths that I just can’t explain as well as Piper…or Paul Tripp…or David Powlison…etc. Try as I might, I can’t encapsulate that nugget of truth as well as they did. I don’t mind pointing people to them…as long as I am also there to help them along the way with some differences they may have missed. Also, I have been pleasantly surprised at how discerning some of my men are! There is, obviously, a careful balance….don’t sell people too short…but don’t expect to much either!
Senior Pastor, Harvest Bible Chapel, Fort Wayne, IN
[Paul J. Scharf][Jamie Hart] If I limited my reading / listening to guys with whom I agree 100%…well…I’d have a lot more shelf (and MP3 player) space!
Jamie,
This is very true, however, time and resources are limited. I listen to many sermons every week on the radio, on CD/cassette and online. Some of them are from people I disagree with. For instance, I have listened to hundreds of hours worth of James Kennedy in my lifetime. But I generally limit my listening and reading to “the best of the best,” simply because time and resources are limited.
From what I have seen of Piper, I would not personally put him in the category where he deserves that kind of attention. Obviously, you and many other good men would disagree with that — which is fine.
Lately, it just seems that everyone who wants to be a “cool” fundamentalist has to find a place to say, “John Piper said…” I was stating a counter opinion why I am not ready to “join the movement.” :)
Yeah…good point, Paul.
I don’t podcast Piper. I enjoy his Tweets…and catch an occasional message…but he’s not at the top of my list either.
Also, for me, I have the tendency to be in awe of great men of God…instead of the great God of men! I have to guard this carefully. With that in mind, I “move” around quite a bit in my reading / listening. Right now I’m on a David Powlison kick…and I just got off a Matt Chandler binge…right after James MacDonald…who came after David Jeremiah! Great men all…but the God they serve is the only One worthy of ANY worship. Each one has, as Aaron put it well, “made me think about things I have never thought about before.” Each has an interesting look at theology…and I have disagreements (some are pretty sharp) with each of these guys (with the possible exception of David Jeremiah). But each of them has challenged my thinking about my God…and helped me to love and enjoy Him more.
Senior Pastor, Harvest Bible Chapel, Fort Wayne, IN
I also like the statement, “There are no great men here — only a great God!”
But God does use men. Since you brought up Jeremiah, I will bear testimony that God has used his teaching in my life in a radical way over many years — and I listen to him many times each week, within a mix of others, which is so important (as you point out).
But God does use men. Since you brought up Jeremiah, I will bear testimony that God has used his teaching in my life in a radical way over many years — and I listen to him many times each week, within a mix of others, which is so important (as you point out).
Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry
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