Sufficiency or No Sufficiency?

[Aaron Blumer] Another part of the problem is that many of those who have given “integration” a bad name, claimed to be attempting that very thing. But if that’s the case, many critics of integrationism have confused poor implementation with faulty principle. In many cases the principle has been sound, the execution has been botched. So it seems to me. So there are “Christian” psychologies that absorbed enormous amounts of data and dogma from godless studies and then tacked on a few credit hours of Bible and called it integration. I’m not for that. But this is not integration at all. So I believe that we are off track going against “integrationism” as a principle, when we ought to be going after inadequate practice.

Thanks, Aaron.

Honest question(s) for you and/or Bob…

Can you paint a picture of what a proper integration view looks like? How would it change / impact counseling? Would we integrate psychology/psychiatry or would we refer them to others? Would we work in tandem or just alongside…who would take the lead? How would the word of God be used?

I guess there are several questions in that…and I have more…but I’m honestly not understanding the position…and I would like to.

Hey wbarkema…been hanging out with Bobby lately? :)

I’ll take a stab at your questions. Please remember I’m not NANC certified and I would consider my approach somewhat different from other NANC counselors I know. My training has been solely from NANC organizations.

[wbarkema] 1. Is it ever allowable that behaviour is caused by a medical condition?

I believe that behavior IS impacted greatly by organic causes. For example, I believe that a lack of sleep can have a huge impact on a counselee…as well as postpartum depression, seasonal depression…and the list could go on. However, these organic causes do not abdicate the counselee’s responsibility to live pleasing to God though it may make it harder…and that should be taken into consideration. I also believe that the biblical process of growth and change still apply. It should cause the counselor to be MORE loving, understanding, and compassionate to his/her counselee’s situation….but he is to still teach truth and help his counselee to live in truth.

2. Is the brain and brain function considered a biological system similar to the heart, lungs, etc…?

Sure…and there may be some chemical issues that impact the way we feel and behave. But again, it doesn’t change our responsibility to live pleasing to God.

3. Back to the sufficiency question; What exactly does either side believe the sufficiency of scripture mean? And, what is the logical conclusion of that belief?

IMO, sufficiency of Scripture means the Bible reveals all we need to know in order to live in a manner pleasing to God (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:3-4). It teaches me why I do what I do (heart desires - Luke 6:43-45; Jer. 10:5-10; James 4:1-10), and how to change (realize a loving God has died in my place and with a heart of love, change the way I think in my heart which will impact my behavior - 2 Cor. 5:14; Rom. 12:1-2; Eph. 4 ). Please understand this is a quick generalization of the process and I’m sure it could be stated more accurately…but that’s my view, in a nut shell.

[RPittman]

[N.F. Tyler] The historic Protestant principle of the sufficency of Scripture (contra the Roman Catholic Church) is that Scripture is sufficient for salvation. As Article VI of the English Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion (1563) reads, “Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.” Roman Catholicism, of course, erroneously taught and teaches doctrines which are not found in Scripture (which she admits; they are developments of the infallible ‘Sacred Tradition’, on par with Scripture, being equally the Word of God) and holds that assenting to these are necessary to salvation.

But, if we’re using II Peter 1:3 as a proof text, it specifically states “all things that pertain unto life and godliness.”

2 Peter 1:3 is referring to salvation. ‘Unto life’ as in eternal life, as opposed to (spiritual) death, etc. No?

I have cut and pasted the post from Dr. Laura Hendrickson that was posted by her on the thread that was an interview with Jay Adams. It is posted under Dr. Laura. She is a NANCE certified counselor and is positive toward much of it. For this very reason her testimony must be considered seriously when it talks of Brain Disease.

RPittman has posted on here with some knowledge on mental illness. However, what he has stated is essentially what is stated by some Nouthetic counselors and what is in some CCEF literature, or I have heard on the radio from some radio counselors like Ed Blakley, who by the way always puts PHD after his name but it is from a degree mill. That is no reflection on Nouthetic counselors though as he has his own group. These statements about not knowing about the uncertainty of Chemical imbalances, and drugs only masking a problem, are unfortunate and very dangerous to the mentally ill. Most drugs taken for an ongoing problem are taken to control not “mask” the problem and usually not to cure it. I take heart medication that prevents irregular heart beat. It masks or corrects the problem. It will never cure it. The same is for much of medical drug treatment.The over prescription of drugs ( a common Nouthetic complaint) is for mood elevation or other non medical problems and occurs most among general practitioners. It is rare among Psychiatrists, especially those handling SSI Medicaid patients, which many of the mentally ill are involved with. The mentally ill have Brain disease. Some is due to chemical imbalance that can now be diagnosed objectively. One Psychiatrist I know uses brain scans to monitor Brain chemical function and the effects of medication. His clinic is known for that. He is “Dr. Amen” in central California. He has a website. I will possibly post regarding some other evidence later. Below is the quote from Dr. Laura from the other thread.

From Dr. Laura:

”Brain Disease”

“I practiced psychiatry until my son was diagnosed with autism 18 years ago. I left my practice to direct his treatment program and never returned, because in the interim I discovered biblical counseling. My current ministry includes psychiatrically informed biblical counseling. I’ve kept up with the psychiatric field and still subscribe to the journals. I like the term “brain disease” better than “mental illness” because today’s psychology/psychiatry has muddied the distinction between painful emotional states and real physical illness of the brain. I counsel people with severe brain diseases like Alzheimer’s, schizophrenia, autism, psychotic bipolar, and traumatic brain injury, I’m supportive of the use of meds in a variety of circumstances, and I consult with pastors and biblical counselors on their difficult cases. I’m not able to engage in a dialog, and I’m not willing to address every issue that’s been brought up in this forum, for reasons of time, but I would like to respond to a few of the assertions that have been made here.

Jay Adams is a brilliant man whose books have done much good, but he is, like all of us, a product of his times. When he first began writing in the late 1960s, psychiatrists were exclusively psychoanalytic. They held to an unbiblical model of personality development, and believed that they could cure everything, including schizophrenia, through talking. His books were directed at this worldview, and he initially spoke more approvingly of psychologists because he received some training in psychology by a university research psychologist (O. Hobart Mowrer). But this was before psychologists in large numbers abandoned university research for clinical practice and took over the same psychotherapeutic ground that psychiatrists later abandoned for the current biomedical model. When he taught biblical counselors to send their counselees to their family doctors instead of psychiatrists for medical screening he was attempting to keep Christians away from psychotherapists espousing unbiblical views, not demonizing psychiatrists. He later had the same problem with psychologists. It was primarily an issue of worldview, not medication use.

Adams left open the possibility that proof of organic causation for some problems could be discovered in the future, and spoke about how we would understand such a development biblically if it should happen—which, of course, it has for brain diseases like schizophrenia. On this subject, I think that he was amazingly prescient, and it’s to his credit that his biblical theology was inclusive enough to leave room for this possibility. Overzealous followers asserted that he taught that there was no such thing as schizophrenia and therefore serious brain disease did not really exist, but he never actually said that. His argument was with the label “schizophrenia,” not with the potential for existence of conditions that could impair the ability to accurately perceive reality, but many biblical counselors have in the past believed that to be biblical they have to take a “no such thing as schizophrenia and no meds ever” approach.

The biblical counseling movement has been swinging away from this view in recent years. I’ve had a public ministry for some years now on this subject, and have found unfailingly that biblical counselors are quick to correct their misperceptions about brain diseases when they understand the issues involved more clearly. I encourage biblical counselors to refer those with brain diseases to psychiatrists for medicine, and agree that they are the most competent physicians to prescribe these potentially dangerous medicines. But I also encourage biblical counselors that they can counsel even those who have serious impairments with reality, because even those who are seriously ill also have a sin problem. We can’t escape this, since every human being ever born except our Savior is a sinner, and all sinners sin (Romans 3:23). I’ve found that even very seriously impaired people’s function improves when they are in an environment where they are encouraged to take their meds, surrounded by a church community that loves them and holds them accountable, and helped to structure their lives to minimize the kinds of things that work against stability (substance abuse, chaotic living situations, wrong friends, not keeping regular hours, etc). In fact, I’d love to see the church take seriously the deep needs of people who are currently in the community mental health system—not to get them out of it, for many need the free care and practical support it provides, but to supplement it with a much-needed biblical worldview, personal, loving Christian charity and real relationship.

But it’s essential to see clearly the distinction between real brain disease and what is referred to as “chemical imbalance.” There is much functional brain scanning research linking the brain’s chemical status to the thoughts and feelings of experimental subjects. Nobody is arguing with the fact that functional scanning demonstrates the brain’s activity when a subject is having thoughts and feelings. But there is not, and cannot be, any research proving that the brain’s chemical status arises de novo and produces thoughts and feelings on its own. The belief that it does has to be considered to be religious/philosophical in nature, because it’s not possible to determine causation where the immaterial mind is involved. It is possible to experiment on the brain, but it’s not possible to delineate via experiments the precise relationship between activity in the immaterial mind and corresponding brain activity. This is not a problem for the many secular psychiatrists who are also materialists, denying the existence of an immaterial mind. But for those of us who want to be biblical, we have to go beyond what the brain is doing to seek to understand how the mind (whose existence the Bible clearly teaches) is involved in cases where physical brain disease is not the primary issue. We also have to insist that even those whose relationship with reality is seriously disordered have thoughts and emotions that are tainted by their sinful nature, and can learn to respond biblically to areas of sin in their lives (as well as learn not to listen to their voices!). But as we do this we need to step very tentatively, understanding that there is much we don’t know about the relationship between the physical brain and the nonphysical mind.

Biblical counselors look to biblical anthropology and insist that the mind (soul, spirit, heart) is the source of our thoughts, feelings, and choices. This means that bad feelings, by themselves, do not constitute brain diseases, even though the brain’s chemical balance is involved in the expression of those feelings. I don’t believe that this means that it’s wrong to take medicines for overwhelming feelings. But when people do, they should be aware that what they are doing is suppressing those feelings, not curing them. This is somewhat analogous to what morphine does for the pain of appendicitis—it decreases the pain but does not solve the underlying problem. I’ve been practicing psychiatry or biblical counseling for about 25 years now, and have not found medicines to be curative in any case by themselves, although they can be a useful adjunct for those who are struggling with very overwhelming emotions, and are essential for those who have true brain diseases, since all we can do for manifestations like voices is to suppress them using medicines.

Biblical counseling is a biblically consistent intervention that gets to the heart of the painful emotions. When I counsel those with brain diseases, I work to get them to understand that they will need to continue to take their medicines to remain stable, as well as teach them how to deal with temptations and struggles in their lives that rise from their sin nature. As they walk in increasing stability, they also begin to understand themselves and their problems better and are able to lead a more normal life. As for those who are not suffering from these devastating diseases, but are struggling with painful emotions, many who begin seeing me while already on medicines over time find them to be no longer necessary because they get to the heart of their struggles. I’ve also had counselees who don’t respond to counseling alone, because they’re already in a deep emotional hole by the time they come for counseling. I refer such counselees to a psychiatrist for medicine, and usually find that they do well in counseling with this additional physical support, and later are able to stop the medicines. It should go without saying that when a counselee is considering harm to self or others, I always recommend a trip to the emergency room and hospitalization with medicines, to protect a sufferer when he is too vulnerable to do so for himself.

This is not the only way to slice this pie, and I don’t think that you have to see it the way I do to be biblical. This is just the way that I do it. I respect very much the passion that Bob T. brings to this discussion. I am passionate about this topic too, as I have a close relationship with a dear one who has had a very severe case of schizophrenia for almost 20 years, as well as a son who was born with severe autism. But I believe that it’s possible to be biomedically informed and biblically consistent at the same time.

I’ve written books, including one that has a chapter on brain diseases. I want to respect this site’s position on advertising my own books, but if you are interested in reading more of my work, you can find me at www.drlaurahendrickson.com. I’m not available to dialog on this issue because my ministry schedule is busy, but perhaps you’ll find my written work helpful in your quest to find your own understanding of the truth on this difficult subject.”



I hope this may be helpful to some. There are still statements by Nouthetic counselors, and in some of their literature, that reflects the older view and brings doubt on mental illness legitimacy, treatment, and Psychiatric medicine. The 1994 book “Biblical Counseling” Edited by John MacArthur has articles by David Powlison, Wayne Mack, and Robert Smith of, or formerly of, CCEF. The book takes the position that mental illness does not really exist and is a myth like “believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.” This illustration is on page 375. One can also go the NANCE website and read some of the latest articles. These doubts and concepts are expressed right on here by by RPittman at post #19 in reply to Joel Shaffer. That reply is almost the same thing I have heard from Ed Welch of CCEF. It is the old yes we will acknowledge however, scenario. The doubts are based on older understandings of Psychiatry and of where Psychiatric medecine diagnosis and treatment is. Medication of the mentally ill is more than masking. It is solving a problem on an ongoing basis. No cure is claimed. However, there are various courses to the illnesses. Some have short term illness that the body self corrects (rare). Some grow out of the full illness with age as the body chemistry changes. For others it is a life long battle. These doubts and misinformation from Nouthetic counselors and their defenders are viewed as dangerous, careless, and cruel by those who are caretakers or involved with as professionals. A graduate of Masters College with a Bachelors and Masters in Nouthetic Counseling upset a pastor and some others due to emphasis and statements made. Some was about the same as made on post #19. I am sure that Jay Adams and most involved in the Nouthetic counseling movement are good men of high spiritual character. This however, does not excuse their viewpoint and its harm. There are now some who have formed recovery groups from Nouthetic Counseling.

RPittman,

Actually the medication did a pretty good job in helping stabilize both of them. The problem was the side affects. So, in the case of both people, they were unwisely advised (on different occasions) to throw away their meds and trust in Jesus and God’s word. One of my residents was diagnosed with Schizophrenia and the other was a severe bi-polar. When the person that was diagnosed with Schizophrenia was off his meds, for the first week he was doing great (at that time, I had no idea he’d stop taking them yet). He was in the Bible Study with me, he was working his job, and everything seemed fine. Then suddenly he began to have his hallucinations. He became politically-preoccupied about the government and also paranoid that the CIA was chasing him and wanted to know some information about his bicycle. Then he became suicidal and revealed that he had been off his meds for a week or so.

When the Bi-polar person went off his meds, when he was in his manic stage, he changed all the outside locks to the house (I was gone for the weekend and my assistant was asleep when he changed the locks), and he began to do neighborhood survelliance throughout our neighborhood because he thought he was a police officer (In the more severe manic-depressive episodes, hallucinations sometimes take place). Several hours later in his depressive state, he indicated that he was going to commit suicide and then revealed he had stopped taking his meds three days earlier.

In my experiences working with mentally ill homeless people that were left to their own living under bridges in G.R., I came across a person that washed his hands in own urine because his paranoia believed that the government had contaminated all the water sources. I knew of a person that wore about 20 hats because he believed his brain would fall out if the hats weren’t on his head. Thankfully there are Christian organizations such as Servants Center that try to help the mentally ill homeless in our cities and help churches respond with discernment and compassion. http://servantscenter.org/article01.html

I am sure that there are some who are labeled Schizophrenic or Bi-Polar that really aren’t. However, I have worked under the bridges where the mentally-ill homeless live (and several have frozen to death in G.R.) because of their extreme paranoia, and can pretty much discern the difference between those who have a real brain disease and those who are, as RPittman states, trying to find relief rather than God’s will.

[Bob T.] I have cut and pasted the post from Dr. Laura Hendrickson that was posted by her on the thread that was an interview with Jay Adams.

Thanks, Bob…this was helpful.

[Jamie Hart] Hey wbarkema…been hanging out with Bobby lately? :)

No Bobby, but I did eat at a Cat Cora restaurant in Orlando a few weeks ago. I am in Philadelphia now and need to try a Jose Garces restaurant.

[Jamie Hart] I believe that behavior IS impacted greatly by organic causes. For example, I believe that a lack of sleep can have a huge impact on a counselee…as well as postpartum depression, seasonal depression…and the list could go on. However, these organic causes do not abdicate the counselee’s responsibility to live pleasing to God though it may make it harder…and that should be taken into consideration. I also believe that the biblical process of growth and change still apply. It should cause the counselor to be MORE loving, understanding, and compassionate to his/her counselee’s situation….but he is to still teach truth and help his counselee to live in truth.

I understand your assertion regarding an individuals responsibility to live pleasing. Is there ever a case then that the organic cause would need to be treated independent of the individuals actions? Using your lack of sleep example, would it be agreeable for an individual to take some OTC antihistamines to aid in their ability to get some sleep, which would then give them the opportunity to correct their behavior?

[Jamie Hart] Sure…and there may be some chemical issues that impact the way we feel and behave. But again, it doesn’t change our responsibility to live pleasing to God.

Once again, agreeing that we are still to live a pleasing life, what is acceptable to address those chemical issues?

[Jamie Hart] IMO, sufficiency of Scripture means the Bible reveals all we need to know in order to live in a manner pleasing to God (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:3-4). It teaches me why I do what I do (heart desires - Luke 6:43-45; Jer. 10:5-10; James 4:1-10), and how to change (realize a loving God has died in my place and with a heart of love, change the way I think in my heart which will impact my behavior - 2 Cor. 5:14; Rom. 12:1-2; Eph. 4 ). Please understand this is a quick generalization of the process and I’m sure it could be stated more accurately…but that’s my view, in a nut shell.

Jamie, I appreciate the way you stated this. Thank you for the reply.

[wbarkema] No Bobby, but I did eat at a Cat Cora restaurant in Orlando a few weeks ago. I am in Philadelphia now and need to try a Jose Garces restaurant.

Did you leave a little tipsy? She often uses “spirits” in her recipes…but all that cooks out…right? :) I enjoyed watching Garces win…seems like a genuine guy…and boy did his food look great!!

[wbarkema] I understand your assertion regarding an individuals responsibility to live pleasing. Is there ever a case then that the organic cause would need to be treated independent of the individuals actions? Using your lack of sleep example, would it be agreeable for an individual to take some OTC antihistamines to aid in their ability to get some sleep, which would then give them the opportunity to correct their behavior?

IMO, I would say…perhaps? But I would word things a little different. Instead of the drug “giving them the opportunity to correct their behavior” I would say, HELPING them correct it. You may not have intended make the drug mandatory, but the statement is worded that way. I have several counselee currently who use something to help them sleep as a temporary measure…but it’s probably not a long term answer (though, even that would depend). I didn’t suggest the medication, FWIW…though I wouldn’t be opposed to doing so…again as a temporary help. Like many biblical counselors, I STRONGLY suggest a good medical exam. If there are some organic things that can be relieved, it will go a long way in heping the counselee. I’m reminded of how God dealt with Elijah. He slept, ate, then slept some more. God ministered to his physical (organic) needs before He dealt with his spiritual issues. However…He DID deal with his spiritual issues!

[wbarkema] Once again, agreeing that we are still to live a pleasing life, what is acceptable to address those chemical issues?

I take each case as it comes, I get a lot of advice for situations that are new, and try to be loving and understanding with each counselee. As my memory serves me, I’ve dealt with people who’ve been clinically diagnosed as depressed, as having Asperger’s Syndrome, Soft Sound Sensitive, as being Bi-polar, having Seasonal depression, and a couple borderline OCD. In each of these cases they came on medication (one woman was on 7 different psychotropic medications!)..and I didn’t touch the issue. I did some researach about the diagnosis and the effects of the medications, I made a few phone calls for advice, then taught biblical principles. I don’t recall ever suggesting that someone needed to go on medications…though I’ve told plenty of people they needed more sleep! It’s important to note, the cases I mentioned above are very rare. By far the cases I deal with regularly are much, much easier to work with. Marriage, parenting, life dominating sins, etc.

[wbarkema] Jamie, I appreciate the way you stated this. Thank you for the reply.

Thanks!

A question that needs answering here is that even though there may be some physiological dysfunction, what caused that dysfunction, and are people compelled to sin because of it? For instance, there have been studies that show that phthalates can cause feminization in boys because it mimics estrogen … but does that excuse the actions of the transvestite or homosexual? There are physical repercussions due to sinful behaviors such as alcoholism and drug abuse- shouldn’t counselors of whatever stripe tend to the spiritual/moral aspects of the person’s condition and not just the physical? IOW, shouldn’t the goal be healing of the whole person? For example- the person who stops smoking tobacco cigarettes because they traded them in for [URL=http://www.electroniccigarettesinc.com/ electronic ones[/URL]… have they truly overcome the habit, or just traded it in for a less harmful method of obtaining a legal high? So when one substance that has been abused is traded in for prescription meds that have the same effect, one has simply become a socially acceptable addict, and they are still not dealing with the underlying issues.

Where folks disagree is exactly which behaviors are the result of organic imbalance/disease and which ones are the actions of a reprobate mind.

Regardless of where they received their training, doctors are humans who are not all objective and professional. Many are easily persuaded [URL=http://my.brandeis.edu/news/item?news_item_id=104310] to prescribe meds unnecessarily[/URL]. I can tell you story after story of moms who convinced their pediatricians to prescribe antibiotics for things like minor ear infections and even viruses, when research shows that the use of antibiotics can actually lead to recurrences, and antibiotics aren’t indicated in the treatment of viruses- in many cases, the doc is simply pacifying the mother by doing something. The same thing happens in psychiatry- they are not any less tempted to over-prescribe than GPs… Anna Nicole Smith and Michael Jackson- HELLO?

And psychiatry is not as scientific as it is often presented. There is no proven cause for bi-polar disorder. The risk factors range from genetic/hereditary to a death in the family. Biochemical causes may or may not include imbalances of acetylcholine, epinephrine and norepinephrine, dopamine and serotonin, or hormones. Just take a look at the list of known uncertainties related to the treatment of mental health issues on the [URL=http://www.library.nhs.uk/duets/SearchResults.aspx?tabID=297&catID=14505] NHS’s Database of Uncertainties about the Effects of Treatments[/URL].

This isn’t to diminish in any way the continued dedication of doctors and researchers who are looking for the physical root causes of mental disorders, but let’s not act as if seriously considering and addressing the contributing spiritual issues is engaging in Christian voodoo.

[Jamie] Honest question(s) for you and/or Bob…

Can you paint a picture of what a proper integration view looks like? How would it change / impact counseling? Would we integrate psychology/psychiatry or would we refer them to others? Would we work in tandem or just alongside…who would take the lead? How would the word of God be used?

I guess there are several questions in that…and I have more…but I’m honestly not understanding the position…and I would like to.

I don’t really know, which is kind of my point. There are unanswered questions. I’m not sure I’m the one to figure that out, but I do think it’s not enough to say “integration is bad” without developing some answers regarding the nature of truth and general revelation.

Some have pretty much denied that there is any general revelation at all in psychology, but I can’t figure out how that idea can be coherent at all. For that to be the case, we’d have to assert that folks studying the human mind and behavior as a science absolutely never discover anything true at all. That would be pretty hard to sustain!

To connect the dots a bit further, this is what I’m talking about when I say “unity of truth.” Any genuine truth discovered by research and not revealed in Scripture must be general revelation because truth cannot come form anywhere but God, and all truth must agree with all other truth (otherwise, one or the other is in error).

So I don’t see how we can dismiss psychology as a field of study without claiming it is completely incapable of discovering anything. But why should we believe that about psychology and not believe it about, say, physics?

I’ll happily grant this, though: because psychology deals so closely with human nature and suggests answers to many questions the Bible has already answered, bringing it under the Lordship of Christ as a field of study is a great deal messier than doing that with mathematics or medicine or history or even biology (biology is also very messy due to evolutionary theory). But to say “Here’s a whole field of study that has absolutely nothing to offer Christians” is a huge problem for our view of truth and, therefore, our view of God.

So I guess I can sketch a beginning of an answer, Jamie. A proper “integration” for psychology would be just like a proper integration between Scripture and any other field of study. The Scriptures would be consulted first, last and throughout, but information gained by studying human behavior would supplement that, rejecting what is clearly not compatible with what the Bible says. Lots of groups have claimed this approach but actually short changed Scripture by a large margin. But this is a problem with implementation.

Because the Bible reveals so much about human behavior and human nature, a successful integration would involve getting a thorough education in biblical theology first, not getting a degree in psych. and adding on a few Bible courses. I’d suggest step one in getting it right would be to reverse those two.

What would it look like in counseling?

Well, for one, it would look like reading alot more widely. There’s all kinds of fascinating research being done with very interesting findings. Of course, a significant percentage of the findings are reversed by other findings later… that’s the nature of science. Hypothesis, test, new hypothesis, etc. I have personally found some non-Christian research on depression very helpful. It added very little to what Scripture teaches, though, beyond a different way of saying it—which can be very helpful. (So, one way to chip away “what would it look like?” a bit is to say it can be helpful with what we usually call application)

[Aaron Blumer]

[Jamie] Honest question(s) for you and/or Bob…

Can you paint a picture of what a proper integration view looks like? How would it change / impact counseling? Would we integrate psychology/psychiatry or would we refer them to others? Would we work in tandem or just alongside…who would take the lead? How would the word of God be used?

I guess there are several questions in that…and I have more…but I’m honestly not understanding the position…and I would like to.

I don’t really know, which is kind of my point. There are unanswered questions. I’m not sure I’m the one to figure that out, but I do think it’s not enough to say “integration is bad” without developing some answers regarding the nature of truth and general revelation.

Some have pretty much denied that there is any general revelation at all in psychology, but I can’t figure out how that idea can be coherent at all. For that to be the case, we’d have to assert that folks studying the human mind and behavior as a science absolutely never discover anything true at all. That would be pretty hard to sustain!

To connect the dots a bit further, this is what I’m talking about when I say “unity of truth.” Any genuine truth discovered by research and not revealed in Scripture must be general revelation because truth cannot come form anywhere but God, and all truth must agree with all other truth (otherwise, one or the other is in error).

So I don’t see how we can dismiss psychology as a field of study without claiming it is completely incapable of discovering anything. But why should we believe that about psychology and not believe it about, say, physics?

I’ll happily grant this, though: because psychology deals so closely with human nature and suggests answers to many questions the Bible has already answered, bringing it under the Lordship of Christ as a field of study is a great deal messier than doing that with mathematics or medicine or history or even biology (biology is also very messy due to evolutionary theory). But to say “Here’s a whole field of study that has absolutely nothing to offer Christians” is a huge problem for our view of truth and, therefore, our view of God.

So I guess I can sketch a beginning of an answer, Jamie. A proper “integration” for psychology would be just like a proper integration between Scripture and any other field of study. The Scriptures would be consulted first, last and throughout, but information gained by studying human behavior would supplement that, rejecting what is clearly not compatible with what the Bible says. Lots of groups have claimed this approach but actually short changed Scripture by a large margin. But this is a problem with implementation.

Because the Bible reveals so much about human behavior and human nature, a successful integration would involve getting a thorough education in biblical theology first, not getting a degree in psych. and adding on a few Bible courses. I’d suggest step one in getting it right would be to reverse those two.

What would it look like in counseling?

Well, for one, it would look like reading alot more widely. There’s all kinds of fascinating research being done with very interesting findings. Of course, a significant percentage of the findings are reversed by other findings later… that’s the nature of science. Hypothesis, test, new hypothesis, etc. I have personally found some non-Christian research on depression very helpful. It added very little to what Scripture teaches, though, beyond a different way of saying it—which can be very helpful. (So, one way to chip away “what would it look like?” a bit is to say it can be helpful with what we usually call application)

Thanks, Aaron. I guess my view is pretty simple. This kind of research may help understand the counselee better…but the answers for the counselee will be the biblical ones and they are sufficient. In other words, though understanding the ins and outs of Asperger’s Syndrome may give me some insight into how my counselee ticks, he still needs to love Christ more and learn how to live for him even with the disease…and those answers are only found in God’s Word. In that way, it is sufficient. The medical treatments may HELP the counselee, but can we really say they are NEEDED…or that he MUST have them to live pleasing to Christ? Of course the obvious question would be “What about people who lived before the medication was discovered?”

I think the problem comes in when a biblical counselor says “There is no such thing as ________________________ . ” My approach has been…perhaps there is and perhaps there isn’t. Let’s learn how to live life in obedience regardless…and God’s Word tells us how to do that.

Susan R., regarding your question regarding Dysfunction and sin.

It has been the contention by some of the Nouthetic Counseling advocates that prior choices and thinking can lead to and be the actual cause if mental illness. If true then they may talk the patient to wellness through their admonition therapy. If false then it is the cruelest of accusations. As pointed out by Dr. Laura, this was an error of earlier Psychiatrists. They talked instead of prescribed -so to speak. It can be said with reasonable certainty that the patient is a victim and not the cause of his or her own illness.

First we need to look at the theological viewpoint regarding the human body. By summary, we may say that man is a living soul that has a human body. The soul and body both originate at conception and develop together. In this life there has never been a time when we existed apart from our bodies. The soul and body develop, act, and exist together. The word mind in scripture appears to be used as an aspect of the functioning of the soul. Mind is therefore a reference to an immaterial aspect of man. In this life our minds have never functioned apart from the body and appear to work in and through the organ of the Brain. Our bodies have been effected by the debilitating effects of the curse by God on creation as a result of sin. Our bodies await redemption (Rom. 8:22-25). At present our bodies suffer due to the diminishing effects of sin and the goal of death. We have all sorts of physical suffering. The kidneys fail, the heart fails, various diseases ravage our bodies. Interestingly a great deal of what we go through can be traced to genes. When I went through Colon Cancer and later Prostrate Cancer, the different oncologists asked numerous questions about family and ancestry. Genetics is a great factor in many types of Cancer. Women are aware of these findings when it comes to breast cancer. Much has been written. After surgery, I went through a year of Chemotherapy for Colon Cancer. during that time I met and talked with many cancer patients as we sat hooked up to IVs for three or four hours at a time once e a week. One young man who had Colon cancer had his Colon removed because the family history of Colon cancer was such that the doctors viewed recurrence almost a certainty. My wife’s family has a history of kidney problems. Though there are many factors involved in the diseases we get, genetics is a major factor, especially in some.

Second, the evidence for Brain organic disease has now been accumulated and compiled from many sources over enough time that medicine now makes some conclusions on on mental illness (Brain disease). Genetics is a major factor. Birth and pregnancy term trauma is also a factor. Twins, separated at birth and raised separately , the second has a 50% chance of Schizophrenia if one is Schizophrenic. Family histories indicate a genetic factor that goes beyond various life styles and educational factors. In some the birth trauma or Pregnancy term trauma seems to be a factor. In our case, scanning our family histories did not reveal any known mental illness. However, in 1976 we were involved in a major head on collision on an icy road while on our way to a church association convention. My wife was 3 months pregnant with our youngest son. She suffered extensive injuries including severe seat belt injury that eventually required repair of the Aorta artery in the abdominal area. Our son was said to be not harmed. There was a normal birth . We noted some odd traits the first couple years such as he would not look at you and would look upward. Like what some might say is mild Autism. However, it went away. His childhood was normal. In Junior high he was tested and found to be highly gifted mentally and the school wanted him to attend a special high school. He started college and all of a sudden there were changes. A couple term papers did not make sense. They were nonsense. He started journaling extensively. He accumulated a couple thousand pages of hand written thoughts written in such small hand writing that it was almost unreadable. Later he would talk and yell at himself at times. Then he started talking in sentences where the words were all mixed up. This is called word salad. One day he took off in his car and did not come back. We received a call from a social worker in another city. He had been picked up twice under CA 51.50 by the police. This is not an arrest but where the person is deemed unable to care for himself. He was walking the streets and forgot he had a car and did not know where he lived. He become disruptive as the second time he was in a Starbucks yelling at people they needed to repent or they would go to hell. We picked him up. He was having paranoid psychotic episodes. We got him home but had to have an intervention team involved. He was admitted to Psychiatric hospitals for a few days on four occasions. Medication calmed him down and he came under the care of the county health clinic. He receives adequate care considering their work load and budget shortfalls. He sees a Psychiatrist once every two months and takes medication regularly now. He is now age 33 and has now held down a regular part time job for over a year and is never late and performing well. Some become more mello and functional as they get older. The onset usually occurs between 17 and 22, and even as old as the 30s for females. I went into all this as one must understand that there is an onset pattern of symptoms that occurs with mental illness. The problem is almost no one knows that ahead of time. They get all this information after and then say, “if only I had known.” We were totally ignorant of what was taking place. The onset period occurs during the final development phases of the Brain frontal lobe during the late teens and early twenties.

Third, extensive medical histories and medical testing with brain scans and chemical analysis has given us some real information. These have made possible the development of many anti Psychotic drugs which cause certain biological reactions. For example Rispidal causes the body to react and produce more Dopamine. This is a key chemical for the brain. Others do not “mask” but alter different aspects of the body chemistry. There are now over 70 different such drugs. Most Psychiatrists do not like the artificial mood elevation drugs and do not Prescribe them. One Psychiatrist my son saw at the mental health clinic had both the M.D. and then also a PHD in Biochemistry. These are experts seeking to apply the findings of medical science to difficult problems. They would laugh at Freud and the early Psychiatrists of Europe and then America.

Fourth, I hope you will begin to see that the concept of Brain Chemistry changes brought on by emotions and thinking do occur but are not of the type and extent to cause psychotic onset and behavior. Medical science treatment of the mentally ill has now generally ruled this out. Onset common symptom patterns, and other objective medical findings, now evidences such changes as insufficient causes. The mentally ill are victims of the body suffering from the debilitating effects of the curse. We do not blame those with Kidney disease for the wrong or sin in their life. The same with other organ failure. Lifestyle is a factor in health but not necessarily the determining major factor. With mental illness, what you eat, how you exercise , and how you think, are not the major causation factors. However, such are factors in non organic problems such as depression, anxiety, or other. These do not rise to the level of mental illness.

Fifth, It may be that some Christians, including Nouthetic advocates, do not understand the real nature of mental illness. If one becomes mentally ill they may end up living on the streets and dying early unless there are family and friends to guide them through the onset and crises years. They will be unable to work and therefore will need to apply for SSDI or SSI, depending on eligibility. With this they will get Medicaid and/or Medicare. In CA. Medicaid is called Medical. This gives them virtually free, no deductible or copay, medical and Prescription drug care. This will give them free treatment , usually at a county mental health dept. and free medicine. My son’s Rispidal would cost him $400.00 per month. The state pays that. The SSI pays him $600.00 to $800.00 per month. Since my son lives at home he was getting a little over $600.00 disability. He is considered as lifetime disabled. Now that he is working his SSI pays almost nothing. He likes that as it gives him an assurance by providing for himself. I keep recommending the movie “The Soloist” because it gives a true picture of the situation of the mentally ill. Many are on the street and getting some help from shelters. That is depicted in the movie. They often get mixed in with the drug attics. The Movie is now on DVD.

Sixth, my understanding and information on this subject comes from being driven to read and discuss this. As a lawyer, I later ended up getting involved handling some legal cases in which the subject of mental illness was involved. This necessitated reading and consultation with Psychiatric experts. I have ongoing dialogue with a couple Psychiatrists who I discuss my reading with and get guidance on research on. As you may know I taught Theology and New Testament and language at Talbot school of Theology of Biola University. The university school of Psychology has what may be the best Christian program in Psychology. It is a 4 year residence graduate program leading to a PHD. It requires the taking of certain Theology classes. However, they have several faculty members that have what is to me an unbiblical integration viewpoint. I would not recommend anyone get a degree in Psychology there or anywhere else. I do not recommend anyone to a Psychologist for counseling. The kind of non medical problems that they should be able to handle are better handled by Pastoral counsel and church peer counsel. So I am not advocating Psychology as a professional discipline. I have talked with Psychologists that have no idea of what Psychiatry is doing as they are in private practice and have little contact with the genuinely mentally ill. However, I do recognize that there are some objective Psychological studies, and social studies, that have conclusions helpful to the Biblical counselor. So my own view point is that we do not throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water but avoid the contaminated water. I am here talking only about mental illness that can only be handled by the medical professional called a Psychiatrist.

If Nouthetic counselors and some other Christians would stop trying to be experts about something they rarely deal with and just admit to incomplete information, it would go a long way to helping family and friends of the mentally ill. That is why I and some others are founding THE CHRISTIAN ALLIANCE ON MENTAL ILLNESS. Information, understanding, and mutual compassion will go a long way to helping.

We (wife an I) recently went to a four session seminar by the County mental health for caretakers of the mentally ill. They had Psychiatrists there who went through the latest information and had extensive visuals of Brain scans. One Hispanic lady said her son was a Pastor and said his brother (her other son) was not mentally ill but was demon possessed. Afterward I talked with her and sought to give her some biblical information on Demon possession and the evidence that such as onset pattern, medical evidence, medicine reaction, and so forth that would indicate an organic disease. She talked with her Pastor son who rebuked her for believing the world instead of the Bible. It has occurred to me many times that the epistemological foundation of that Pastor (who has no formal training) is the same as those advocating Nouthetic counseling and their view of the sufficiency of scripture. The Nouthies are often well educated with seminary training and with PHDs (though often in unrelated fields). However, they are basically attempting to stake out their territory and make the Bible their sole and exclusive authority in a way that excludes other knowledge. When other knowledge threatens they seek to alter the contribution by twisting the truth or offering other alternatives to bring doubt. Thus the chicken and the egg scenario that states the brain is altered when we think so if we think in wrong patterns then perhaps we can make ourselves mentally ill. This is convoluted truth no better than the Charismatic who cries “Demon Possession” because its in the Bible. However this theory is not in the bible except by applying biblical admonitions regarding our being accountable. Carried to the logical conclusion it makes the Down syndrome person and the mentally handicapped all equally accountable with all others. The Charismatic takes bible verses on historical events and misinterpret and misapplies them. They make them first premise doctrine and then exclude other outside truth. It is also the same epistemological foundation that the KJVO advocates rest upon. Their Bible verses on preservation are misinterpreted and then misapplied. It then becomes the same as first premise bible doctrine. The Nouthetic advocate takes something the Bible states regarding the sufficiency of scripture or accountability and misinterprets it and then applies it wrongly as first premise bible doctrine. In all cases they they wrongly apply other second premise truth as first premise doctrine. I make this comparison with only the intention of pointing out a possible false common ground for applying truth.

I am advocating the proper second premise application of first premise Biblical truth. I am advocating true Biblical counseling plus the validity of mental illness and Psychiatric treatment. I am not advocating Psychology.

[Aaron Blumer]

[Jamie] Honest question(s) for you and/or Bob…

Can you paint a picture of what a proper integration view looks like? How would it change / impact counseling? Would we integrate psychology/psychiatry or would we refer them to others? Would we work in tandem or just alongside…who would take the lead? How would the word of God be used?

I guess there are several questions in that…and I have more…but I’m honestly not understanding the position…and I would like to.

I don’t really know, which is kind of my point. There are unanswered questions. I’m not sure I’m the one to figure that out, but I do think it’s not enough to say “integration is bad” without developing some answers regarding the nature of truth and general revelation.

Some have pretty much denied that there is any general revelation at all in psychology, but I can’t figure out how that idea can be coherent at all. For that to be the case, we’d have to assert that folks studying the human mind and behavior as a science absolutely never discover anything true at all. That would be pretty hard to sustain!

To connect the dots a bit further, this is what I’m talking about when I say “unity of truth.” Any genuine truth discovered by research and not revealed in Scripture must be general revelation because truth cannot come form anywhere but God, and all truth must agree with all other truth (otherwise, one or the other is in error).

So I don’t see how we can dismiss psychology as a field of study without claiming it is completely incapable of discovering anything. But why should we believe that about psychology and not believe it about, say, physics?

I’ll happily grant this, though: because psychology deals so closely with human nature and suggests answers to many questions the Bible has already answered, bringing it under the Lordship of Christ as a field of study is a great deal messier than doing that with mathematics or medicine or history or even biology (biology is also very messy due to evolutionary theory). But to say “Here’s a whole field of study that has absolutely nothing to offer Christians” is a huge problem for our view of truth and, therefore, our view of God.

So I guess I can sketch a beginning of an answer, Jamie. A proper “integration” for psychology would be just like a proper integration between Scripture and any other field of study. The Scriptures would be consulted first, last and throughout, but information gained by studying human behavior would supplement that, rejecting what is clearly not compatible with what the Bible says. Lots of groups have claimed this approach but actually short changed Scripture by a large margin. But this is a problem with implementation.

Because the Bible reveals so much about human behavior and human nature, a successful integration would involve getting a thorough education in biblical theology first, not getting a degree in psych. and adding on a few Bible courses. I’d suggest step one in getting it right would be to reverse those two.

What would it look like in counseling?

Well, for one, it would look like reading alot more widely. There’s all kinds of fascinating research being done with very interesting findings. Of course, a significant percentage of the findings are reversed by other findings later… that’s the nature of science. Hypothesis, test, new hypothesis, etc. I have personally found some non-Christian research on depression very helpful. It added very little to what Scripture teaches, though, beyond a different way of saying it—which can be very helpful. (So, one way to chip away “what would it look like?” a bit is to say it can be helpful with what we usually call application)

Thank you Aaron for this answer. I can agree with most of your thoughts here. I think what you said regarding what this would look like in counseling is a good approach for the average Pastor. Back in the early Seventies Gary Collins advocated an integration approach he called “robbing the Egyptians.” He also had a good training book out on counseling that advocated a common sense peer counseling approach and gave conclusions from studies that showed laymen competent with the Bile and life experience were the most effective counselors. I used it in teaching counseling classes in our church. However, Gary Collins started to change . He was no longer robbing the Egyptians but became an Egyptian. He wrote a book titled “Insight Out,” which was Freudian to the core. He stated that no Christian could be successful in their spiritual life without going back in their life and remembering all their sins and actions and seeking forgiveness from others and for themselves. They were to go back to childhood. What brought on this change is a mystery. As I stated in my prior post I am not advocating Psychology as a remedy. It is especially very difficult to trust their various Psychotherapy models and conclusions. To me one of the most dangerous Psychological concepts is the idea of the importance of “self esteem.” An old friend of mine, wrote a book titled “The Danger of Self Love,” Paul Brownback, Moody Press,1982. He did an excellent and scholarly handling of the subject. I believe that non organic personal problems are better handled by the Biblical counselor. However, it is best that such is based on a complete and wholesome doctrinal approach and has no reservations regarding the legitimacy of mental illness and the necessity of it being handled by the Psychiatrist as primary care giver and the Biblical counselor fully cooperating with medical treatment and supplementing by giving discerning spiritual counsel. such counsel must be with great sensitivity. Improper handling of guilt and spiritual requirements can discourage some mentally ill to suicide or self harm. There is a place for admonition but a great need for us being the tool of the Holy Spirit as the “Paraklete.” Christ is a burden bearer and we are to be also (Gal. 6:1-5). But I am sure you are sensitive to that. Thank you for your answer.

I agree that our use of some Psychological discovery is useful as truth. From my perspective, all truth is God’s truth as all things apart from Himself were created by Him. The Bible is a book of revelatory unfallen truth whereas discovery within the realm of creation is from fallen truth. There is a true unity of all truth but problems in discovering what is truth. The perspicuity of scripture makes much of its truth clear on the face. Some however has less clarity. In fallen creation we have truth pursued by fallen men. Therefore, such discovery must be received as subject to possible confirmation from scripture and having no condemnation form scripture. From there external verification should be pursued.

I feel like the “sufficiency of scripture” argument is one of those swords with two edges. - If scripture is all we need for life and godliness, is it idolatry to be reading an article posted on a website by Thomas Zempel? Probably not. I think it’s ok to read his take on things and to appreciate the (long) interaction - to learn from it, and use it in my ministry. Obviously the sufficiency of scripture means something else.

And if the “sufficiency of scripture” doesn’t outlaw learning from peoples’ thoughts about God, then i don’t think it should outlaw learning from people’s thoughts about people.

www.suttersaga.com

i’m sorry, obviously i don’t mean we can know nothing outside of scripture.

and yes, i am asking for a more nuanced definition of the sufficiency of scripture. I don’t really like a position of ~scripture is sufficient so we can’t learn from psychology/_____/_____~ fill in the blank.

I think a better critique might be that sometimes Scripture has a different take on the human condition than does psychology - and scripture is right, but that’s a different theological label than sufficiency.