More seminary students leave the Master of Divinity behind
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[Bert Perry]What I’ve bolded is about how it works. If you have 10-11 families in the church, say 30-40 people there including children (we’ll assume they’re not all homeschoolers, in which case the number would be 70-100, of course), you can meet, albeit snugly, in a generously sized living or family room. Aren’t we told that a lot of ancient churches were indeed house churches?
In reality, you’d have a very hard time (in any church I’ve ever seen) getting all ten out of any given ten families to each give 10%, let alone the 20% that John E. optimistically proposes.
At best, you’d end up with a church of ten families struggling to pay a full-time pastor–with no margin left in the church’s income to fund anything else. And what happens when a couple of families move away, or a couple of the breadwinners get laid off?
Then again, does a church of ten families really need a full-time pastor? Besides preaching & teaching, there would be only so much counseling, visitation, and the like to be done. We’re talking about a need for a bi-vocational pastor, at most.
I’ll vouch for what dgszweda said since we were both part of the same church plant that basically did exactly what he said. Just as an example, 10 years ago the church had a budget around $220k, with a $60k/year mortgage, and we paid the pastor a bit over $80k. At that point we had 100-125 people in the church, if I remember correctly. The killer for most church plants today are building costs. We were very fortunate in that regard.
You wrote:
I’ll vouch for what dgszweda said since we were both part of the same church plant that basically did exactly what he said. Just as an example, 10 years ago the church had a budget around $220k, with a $60k/year mortgage, and we paid the pastor a bit over $80k. At that point we had 100-125 people in the church, if I remember correctly. The killer for most church plants today are building costs. We were very fortunate in that regard.
Did that church plant have more than 10 giving units? That’s the part of dgszweda’s statement that I’m curious about.
As you stated, your low building costs was essential. In God’s providential grace, my church was given a building four years ago. We’re able to do things that other churches our size can’t because we have no mortgage. We are very mindful of that and very thankful.
[John E.]I don’t remember exactly how many giving units we had at the very beginning. It was close to around 10, though. We added families, of course, through time. We were not officially self-supporting right off the bat but I remember looking back at the numbers and thinking we could have been. I was treasurer for first 10 years of the church’s existence. The numbers I gave were not at the beginning, and we had way more than 10 giving units at that time, but the budget number was close to what you estimated and that’s why I posted it. At the beginning, with the ~10 units, we were only paying around $1000/mo for our rented facility, so those costs were way down, and our overall budget wasn’t nearly $220k.Did that church plant have more than 10 giving units? That’s the part of dgszweda’s statement that I’m curious about.
As you stated, your low building costs was essential. In God’s providential grace, my church was given a building four years ago. We’re able to do things that other churches our size can’t because we have no mortgage. We are very mindful of that and very thankful.
Thank you, Andy.
While trying not to think of my small sample size as normative, I’m not sure that I’m willing to give up on having full-time vocational pastors in our churches. If churches lose tax exempt status, that will change, of course.
One thought could be having conservative Christians invest half a billion dollars in churches and not tourist traps in DC :)
[Larry Nelson]
In reality, you’d have a very hard time (in any church I’ve ever seen) getting all ten out of any given ten families to each give 10%, let alone the 20% that John E. optimistically proposes.
At best, you’d end up with a church of ten families struggling to pay a full-time pastor–with no margin left in the church’s income to fund anything else. And what happens when a couple of families move away, or a couple of the breadwinners get laid off?
Then again, does a church of ten families really need a full-time pastor? Besides preaching & teaching, there would be only so much counseling, visitation, and the like to be done. We’re talking about a need for a bi-vocational pastor, at most.
Might be right. On the other hand, we might find out how much spiritual growth a pastor might see if he had the time to interact with his entire flock.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
https://centralseminary.edu/its-not-a-cadillac-part-one-a-bit-of-histor…
by the 1950s Baptist fundamentalism was producing pastors who were strong opponents of modernist theology, but who tended to be poor thinkers with a fairly weak ability to study the text of Scripture for themselves and a relatively sketchy knowledge of the system of faith. This weak preparation of fundamentalist leaders resulted in poorly-taught churches led by pastoral impresarios whose ministries more closely resembled circuses and theaters than New Testament congregations. It eventually left the movement open to such debilitating influences as the sham scholarship of a Gail Riplinger, the demagoguery of a Jack Hyles, the ecclesiastical politics of a Carl McIntire, and the sharp decline of skillful expository preaching. Clearly something needed to be done.
To be sure, a few seminaries existed outside of Baptist circles. A young man graduating from college could go to Dallas or Talbot, or later on to Carl McIntire’s Faith Theological Seminary. But the Baptist alternatives were few. By the late 1940s, there was a little school in Los Angeles, and another was meeting in the basement of Wealthy Street Baptist Church in Grand Rapids. Conservative Baptists established a seminary in Denver in 1950, but it quickly abandoned both fundamentalism and dispensationalism.
By the mid-1950s, certain fundamentalist leaders began to see the need to offer seminary-level instruction for the coming generations of fundamentalist leadership. Over the next two decades, fundamentalists established several seminaries, including those in Minneapolis, San Francisco, Clarks Summit, Lansdale, and Detroit. Others were added later on.
…
Seminary instruction is not a guarantee of effective ministry. Nevertheless, ceteris paribus, a man with seminary behind him will be more effective in ministry than the same man without it. Some men will become useful who would otherwise have been failures in ministry. Furthermore, a good seminary will help to keep some men from becoming effective at doing the wrong things.
In short, seminary instruction—which includes all the components of the traditional M.Div. program—is not a Cadillac. It is not a luxury to be enjoyed only by those with wealth and leisure to acquire it. No, seminary instruction is more like a box full of tools, each of which is essential for the pastor who wishes to lead a church in God’s way. To neglect any of those tools is to cripple some aspect of vital, New Testament ministry.
That is exactly what happens when a future pastor refuses the M.Div. program in favor of the M.A. It is also what happens when seminaries, for the sake of enrollment, drop requirements so that they can shorten their M.Div. programs. It can even happen when a seminary cheapens its M.Div. by shifting the emphasis away from those tools that are more difficult to learn to use skillfully.
So why does Central offer a MA?
https://centralseminary.edu/programs/master-of-arts/
You want to minister more effectively in your church, but you don’t know how. You’ve had some opportunities to counsel, but you struggle to know what to do. Things get so complicated so quickly. All you know is a few well worn cliches and a pat on the back.
You know the Bible has answers; you’re just not sure how to provide them. Maybe you’ve been given the chance to teach. It’s been exciting, but you are discovering that it’s difficult to present anything with depth. You’re just not sure how to make the connections and present the truth.
The Master of Arts could be the solution for which you are looking. With two tracks, one in Biblical Counseling and one in Theology, it is customizable, so that you can prepare for the ministry God has given you. The Master of Arts is a great start. You will begin obtaining the tools you need to make use of the power of the Word of God.
Why “sell” a Chevy if everyone needs a Cadillac
This essay is excellent. I agree the MDiv should the goal for any Christian minister. I also agree Baptist fundamentalism needs men who have MDiv training. I contend the best model to make that happen is to take your time, pay for your classes as you go, and take several years to get it done. Avoid student loan debt at all costs.
Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.
My experience is … (my Pastor has an M.Div) :
- He uses the Greek
- No evidence that he uses Hebrew
Anyone else have the same experience?
Dr. Bauder:
Thanks for the article. I agree. Good reasoning and conclusions that are pointed and true.
Dr. R. V. Clearwaters often said that if he would have known he only had ten years of ministry he would study for seven and preach for three. The inimitable A. H. Strong, I think it was, quipped that if God wanted to grow an oak He took three years; if wanted to grow a squash, He took three months.
I would only add to your analysis Grace Theological Seminary, begun in 1937 as an unashamed fundamentalist school born out of the struggles with theological Liberalism and Arminianism in Brethren circles. In due course Grace developed high academic standards, sound theology, respectable scholarship and a bulwark against Liberalism and the developing New Evangelicalism. When I was there, and before I came in 1957, Baptist students (GARBC, CBA mainly) often outnumbered Brethren students.
Rolland McCune
Craig, I could be wrong but I think Central offers the MA as the graduate preparation for a post graduate degree.
Joeb:
Yes, Donald Fullerton steered quite a few Princeton grads to Grace Seminary, two of them went all the way through to the ThD and joined the Grace faculty in the later 50s. They were my profs when I went there in 1957: John C. Whitcomb and John Rea. There were a few Princeton grads at Grace when I was there. Grace bestowed one of its rather rare DDs in appreciation of his very effective ministry.
Rolland McCune
Regarding using the Greek vs. using the Hebrew, one proverb I’ve learned is that a lot of pastors like one and not the other—they are very different languages with very different “feels”. To be way over simplifying, Greek is more like Aristotle with tight boundaries on how things are argued, Hebrew has a lot more subtleties and things you’ve got to “get”.
Not an airtight wall, and I’d agree that a pastor ought to grasp a bit of both, but that’s where a lot of guys are coming from.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
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