A Wisdom Case for Total Abstinence from Alcohol in Modern Times

Lee, the Bible condemns drunkenness, not moderate consumption of alcohol. Aaron does not argue directly that moderate consumption of alcohol is condemned, but rather that it’s likely that moderate consumption of alcohol will lead to sinful consumption and/or other adverse consequences. I disagree to a degree with Aaron, but let’s not misrepresent his argument.

Regarding the question of obesity, it’s worth noting that gluttony is condemned in the same passage as is drunkenness, Proverbs 23. All we need to do is ask the obvious question “how do we know a person is a glutton, and how do we see such a person end up in poverty?” The obvious answers are the proverbial spare tire and sickness from overeating leading to an inability to perform the daily tasks of life, really analogous to a slow-release version of alcohol abuse. It’s a very similar argument to Aaron’s, and quite frankly, although the effects aren’t as spectacular as those of drunkenness, it’s close to eight times more lethal, according to the CDC.

Again, Pareto Principle. If you’ve got a limited amount of energy to confront the things that are killing your church, what’s your priority?

About forty years ago, I read a widely circulated book about wine in the Bible, a book formerly advertised on SI. At the time, it seemed persuasive, and strengthened my resolve to teach the “two wines theory.” Positive Biblical references to wine mean unfermented, and negative ones, fermented. However, even at that time, I wondered if the book was completely trustworthy? How could I be certain that the many supporting references and quotations were accurate? Is is possible that the book is re-circulating errors published decades ago, but because they are found in previously published books, they are assumed to be correct?

Then, in the course of systematic pulpit exposition, I began to realize that the “two wines” theory does not hold up to careful exegesis. That changed my thinking. It really doesn’t matter what outside sources say. The Bible is the standard, and the Bible is clear : drunkenness is prohibited, but moderate use is assumed. I don’t know if anyone will ever be able to get to the bottom of the many competing citations from ancient sources, but so what? They are interesting, even informative, but have no bearing on Biblical teaching. That settled it for me. I am content to be a voluntary abstainer. I refuse to be a prohibitionist.

“I guarantee you that if you squeeze raisins in cheesecloth, there are many things you will get, but a serviceable must is not one of them.”

While some may want to try squeezing dry raisins till they’re red in the face, the ancients, as mentioned in my above comment, re-hydrated the dry raisins, then squeezed or pressed them into wine. Ancients knew this process well and it is often mentioned in ancient literature.

“Concentrating grape juice down by heating is still used to make the popular shireh of modern Iran and was known to the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia as well as the Greeks and Romans. It enables fruit to be preserved , and, diluted with water, it produces a refreshing, nonalcoholic beverage.”

-Patrick E. McGovern, Ancient Wine: The Search for the Origins of Viniculture, Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey; 2003.

This quote is refuted by:

“Regarding the Shireh, that’s actually an alcoholic wine. Marco Polo wrote about the great wines of Shiraz.”

I don’t know what the wines of Shiraz have to do with McGovern’s quote about shireh and common nonalcoholic beverages in the ancient world.

Patrick E. McGovern is a Senior Research Scientist in the Museum Applied Science Center for Archaeology and is Adjunct Associate Professor of Anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania. He is a drinker and is known for his research in ancient wine. I think he would know a little about the ancients producing nonalcoholic drinks (as well as intoxicating drinks) from grapes and other fruit.

My point is not that no one in the ancient world drank alcohol. My point is they also knew how to make nonalcoholic wine as well.

David R. Brumbelow

I think it would be good to address Aaron’s argument frontally. As I see things, there are three significant differences between then and now that will slightly, but not that significantly, modify the argument. First, wine was in those days very helpful for maintaining health—it was your vitamins in winter, and it tended to kill the creepy-crawlies that would have gotten into the water from all the trade caravans going through Israel, and which would grow in your cisterns and wells. Second, you’ve got the reality of distilled spirits getting people drunk in a hurry, and third, you’ve got the reality of driving and operating heavy equipment. A lower BAC can get you in serious trouble today.

Regarding the first, we need to consider that there were Rechabites and those who took Nazirite vows, as well as Timothy. So while wine was pervasive at the time, you’d have gotten a good argument about the need for it. The Apocrypha also describes those such as Judith whose form of piety was to abstain from pretty much any enjoyment. So if you’d gone back and told people then that it was absolutely necessary, they’d have been able to point to a lot of exceptions—and really, I’d guess slaves didn’t have a huge, ready supply of wine, either. Smart or dumb, they thought they had a way out of using wine if they didn’t want to.

Regarding distilled spirits, that really comes down to the question of whether we ought to include intentional drunkenness; I would hope we would exclude that, because both sides of the debate agree that’s sin. Can it sneak up on you? Well, maybe once or twice in isolated circumstances, but remember that dependence requires repeated incidents, and many people learn something from their hangovers. I therefore doubt the notion that very many people “accidentally” have this problem.

That really leaves the core of the argument, which is the claim that it’s better simply to be completely sober to “do your best for God.” That sounds compelling, but there’s a huge problem with it; Scripture simply does not make this argument. It rather speaks of people cheerfully enjoying wine in good conscience, or abstaining in good conscience. Sometimes people get “merry” (Boaz, the wedding at Cana) with what appears to be Scripture’s approval.

The conclusion I come to is that part of living for Christ in an effective way is to enjoy the good things in this world He has for us. Not to run after them with all our time and treasure, to be sure, but when it’s appropriate, relax and enjoy.

“I cast my vote against social drinking. I will not keep a dog in my house that bites one of every five or nine people who stoop to pet it. Nor will I sanction alcohol because it dooms or harms ‘just’ one of every five, nine, or sixteen, who drink it.”

“For those who have not yet had their first drink – the wisdom and courage to say ‘No’ is the answer.”

-Upton Sinclair (AD 1878-1968), Cup of Fury. Pulitzer Prize winning author and liberal socialist. I disagree with him on his socialism, but agree with Cup of Fury.

Other quotes of his in “Ancient Wine and the Bible.”

David R. Brumbelow

David, Shireh and Shiraz are basically synonymous. The raisin wines of that city were famous in many countries which transliterated the name of the city differently, hence the variants. More or less, you’ve made a bunch of claims for nonalcoholic wine that are anything but.

Why should I care what an anti-Christian, muckraking, materialist who never let facts get in the way of his agenda have to say?

His opposition to alcohol, like his opposition to sex outside of marriage, was based on his Marxist materialism. I wouldn’t use his quotes about sex outside of marriage to support my belief that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Why use his quotes on alcohol? Fundamentally, we all on this site disagree with the man at the presuppositional level.

David, if you want a list of famous teetotalers to “make your case”, but aren’t real particular about whether the person has actually thought anything through to have anything worth saying, here’s a list. Some of my favorite examples you might cite are Angus Young of AC/DC, Mickey Cohen (and others) from the “Jewish Mafia”, Gene Simmons of KISS, and of course the Austrian corporal himself, Adolf Hitler. Nothing would lend moral authority to your cause like that!

Really, with your quote of Sinclair—whose whole life seems to have been a series of emotional over-reactions to his upbringing, including the fact that his father was indeed a drunk—illustrates a sad tendency on your part to use any piece of evidence, in or out of context, to “make your point.” In this case, it’s also a basic genetic fallacy as well. If you want to make your point, you’ve got to use actual evidence that stands up to scrutiny, and you’re failing miserably at this.

A couple weeks ago my two oldest sons in grade school asked me about beer. I told them except for two accidental swallows of wine and champagne, I’ve never drunk alcohol. (Did not like the taste.) I also said that, based on my personal study, the Bible does not say drinking is a sin, but it comes very, very, very close to it. While I have no desire whatsoever to drink, I won’t separate from someone if they drink.

A few years ago during my limited study of this subject I turned to the source of all things truthful and correct: The World Wide Web.

Wow! There is a lot written about this subject by Christians of various identifications. Much of which I saw contradicts each other and falls along the full spectrum of logic and education on the subject. One source I recall said that the ancients knew how to preserve grapes on the vine months after they were harvested. Another said referring to a passage of scripture, (I don’t recall the exact passage) “of course the grape juice was wine (alcoholic) because the grape harvest was months earlier” (or something to that effect).

In other words, there is such a wide divergence of opinions on this subject and I see too many “Christians” using poor or illogical understanding of history and the Bible. Because this subject is such a controversial issue, bad bias-based reasoning is sure to abound - on both sides of the isle.

One source of confusion is that one of the words often translated “wine” in the Bible can also be legitimately translated into several other English words.

Bottom line, while I would definitely encourage abstinence, for those that want to study the subject from a Biblical perspective, be careful.

Feel free to be horrified by someone quoting a non-Fundamentalist. I have long believed it is acceptable to quote someone when they are right, even when I disagree with them on other issues.

Matter of fact, I imagine you two (John, Bert) have also done so in the past. The Bible, preachers, theologians down through history have quoted unbelievers when they got something right. I will continue to do so.

By the way, I hope all the links Bert has provided up till now are from Bible-believing, Fundamentalists; otherwise…

To further concern you, another quote:

“Not drinking is no easy passport to happiness, no automatic assurance of a good and happy life. What it does is to increase the odds enormously.” -Upton Sinclair, Cup of Fury

When Sinclair is right, he’s right!

David R. Brumbelow

Back to Aaron’s point about dangers and risks. I know a situation where a young man had been an alcoholic, then got help and recovery, got off the addition and started leading a normal life with family, faith, church, and so forth. But at some point he and his family began attending a pro-drinking church, you know, the kind that thinks drinking booze is almost a third ordinance. So they encouraged the man to start drinking again. I don’t have to write the rest of the story as you know what happened. And of course the blame for the man’s ruin was placed solely on him for not obeying the command to avoid becoming drunk.

Darrell,

I personally know of another story very similar to the one you just related. Very sad.

David R. Brumbelow

Aaron, if you look at the hazards—quite frankly you see them every week during the “organ recital” for church prayer meeting—you see the relative risk. According to the CDC, it’s about 8:1 on the side of food/sloth overall, and if you factor out intentional drunkenness, you’re probably at 100:1 or more. Yes, it’s an unbalanced comparison, but in the opposite way from what you were asserting, and the zero sermons I’ve heard on gluttony in the 30 years I’ve been in Christ just ain’t cutting it when 600,000 Americans are dying each year from it.

Moreover, let’s consider what drunkenness is; it’s gluttony for the food called wine. 7kcal/gram of alcohol, vitamins, carbohydrates, minerals, yes, it is a food like any other as well as a drug. Preaching against gluttony is ipso facto preaching against drunkenness. When a pastor tells the congregation that their spare tires, discomfort after eating, joint pain, bad lipid panels, and the like are in part evidence of sin, and then gives hints on how to remedy that—sip your drinks, ease up on the sugary drinks, chew your food, don’t swallow foods or drinks with an off taste you don’t understand—he’s preparing people to have the same habits regarding the bowl of punch with an unknown strength of Everclear.

In other words, he’s doing a lot more to prevent drunkenness than the well-meaning pastor who simply tries to teach total abstinence.

[Bert Perry]

Preaching against gluttony is ipso facto preaching against drunkenness.

Does a preacher need to preach against specific sins? Any time a Christian sins a particular sin it is because he is not walking in the Spirit - and failing to walk in the Spirit, itself, is sin. When preaching focuses on what we are commanded to do instead of focusing on what God commands us not to do, I believe it is far more profitable in helping people overcome those specific sins that the Bible clearly expresses.

[JNoël]

Does a preacher need to preach against specific sins? Any time a Christian sins a particular sin it is because he is not walking in the Spirit - and failing to walk in the Spirit, itself, is sin. When preaching focuses on what we are commanded to do instead of focusing on what God commands us not to do, I believe it is far more profitable in helping people overcome those specific sins that the Bible clearly expresses.

Well, I’d have thought that a good pastor, confronted with the fact that 600,000 Americans every year are dying of the aftereffects of gluttony, and aware that it’s most likely the #1 killer of people in his congregation, might address the Biblical testimony on the matter, but maybe that’s insufficient. You need, per Aaron’s comments, to have something more spectacular and gory—maybe if gluttons exploded or something—it would be worth a sermon. “If it bleeds, it leads” is apparently not just a tenet of journalism, but of homiletics today.

And let’s be honest here. Part of the reason you don’t hear much on gluttony is because it’s the prevalent sin in our churches, and the pastor would hear it from the congregation if he did. He might even get fired. So he’ll ignore the fact that gluttony and drunkenness are linked and preach only on the latter, violating every principle of sound exegesis and hermeneutics in the process, and then proceed to pray for their heart disease and diabetes each Wednesday, go to their bedside when they get open heart surgery, joint replacement, and dialysis, and finally preach their funerals. It’s much safer that way. Preach about the sins that only a few commit, not against the besetting sins of most of the congregation.

[Bert Perry]

And let’s be honest here. Part of the reason you don’t hear much on gluttony is because it’s the prevalent sin in our churches

Opinion.

In my opinion, laziness, materialism, pride, and division trump gluttony. And, actually, let’s just toss porneia into the mix, too.

I actually taught on materialism/greed once at church. I caught it but good. :^) Both materialism and gluttony (linked concepts, no?) seem to be represented by fairly strong majorities in most American churches.

Bert, it sounds like you have thought a lot about the gluttony issue. I would love to read a well thought out article with scripture and other sources that we could all use as a reference. I am not suggesting this to pick on you, I am simply urging you on to good works since it seems that this is something you have been thinking a lot about. I would not be suggesting it if I did not think you were up to the task. I do not expect a copy in my inbox tomorrow or anything, but I think such an article would be a great addition to our Sharper Iron posts over the next year.

P.S. If you already have something and I missed it, then please link to it.

Not everyone who appears to be overweight is guilty of the sin of gluttony. I know some who have medical problems that result in excessive weight gain. I also know of some who literally can eat huge portions of food and desserts and never put on any weight. Its not as easy to decipher as getting someone’s body mass index number and then declaring them being in ‘sin’ if the number is too high.

Darrel wrote:

I also know of some who literally can eat huge portions of food and desserts and never put on any weight.

Darrel, that is me. I am a bi-vocational pastor and am a self employed contractor with no employees, so I do the work myself. That means I am very active. I am in my mid 40’s and have never felt healthier. I attribute a lot of that to the exercise I get and the fact that physical labor has always been a big stress reducer for me. Having said that, I often look at the calorie count at McDonald’s and try to order the stuff with the most calories just so I do not loose any more weight (my ribs already show). Thus I am hungry (pardon the pun) for a good explanation of the theology of gluttony and how it applies to someone like me as well.

[Darrell Post]

Not everyone who appears to be overweight is guilty of the sin of gluttony. I know some who have medical problems that result in excessive weight gain. I also know of some who literally can eat huge portions of food and desserts and never put on any weight. Its not as easy to decipher as getting someone’s body mass index number and then declaring them being in ‘sin’ if the number is too high.

Folks, the simple fact of the matter is that the words for gluttony and drunkenness are used together at least seven times in Scripture. If one tries to preach against one without preaching against the other, one is simply violating basic rules of exegesis and homiletics. Preach what’s in the Word, not what’s on your soapbox.

And let’s define it properly; it’s eating, at various times or consistently, more than your body needs to operate. The construction worker or distance runner who needs 5000 calories per day (used to be me) is not a glutton. He is eating what he needs. The glutton is the person who eats at one sitting a lot more than he needs (think Thanksgiving or a Super Bowl Party), or who consistently eats more than he needs.

As such, ample stores of fat are as much a sign of gluttony as bloating and nausea. You only get those stores of fat by eating more calories over time than you burn; there is no other way.

And, like problem drinking, the glutton has a series of habits that lead to problems. The Mayo Clinic Diet actually starts with a requirement to “detox” by putting off certain behaviors (eating in front of the TV, soda) and putting on others (mild exercise, etc..). It’s a different list than you’d use with a problem drinker, but it’s really the same premise.

But if you want to keep whistling past the graveyard, going to the homes and hospital beds of people getting joint replacements, dialysis, stents, open heart surgery, and the like as you wait to preach their funerals, be my guest. Ignore the stats because a heart attack isn’t as shocking as a DUI-induced car crash, and because the funeral is open casket instead of closed casket. Keep preaching instead about a problem most of the congregation doesn’t have, and dutifully ignore a problem that most of them obviously do.

[Bert Perry]

And let’s define it properly; it’s eating, at various times or consistently, more than your body needs to operate. The construction worker or distance runner who needs 5000 calories per day (used to be me) is not a glutton. He is eating what he needs. The glutton is the person who eats at one sitting a lot more than he needs (think Thanksgiving or a Super Bowl Party), or who consistently eats more than he needs.

I’m curious what your thoughts are on secular entertainment. Do you ever play a game of Monopoly? Play basketball? Watch a secular movie (say, for example, The Fox and the Hound)? I have wondered how many secular activities Paul participated in, considering verses that make it appear that he never did anything but that which was based on the eternal.

Just trying to understand where you’re coming from; not casting stones here.

That’s a nice dodge, Jason, but it’s worth noting, ahem, that I’ve got no less than seven times in Scripture that the subjects of gluttony and drunkenness are linked. I would hence argue that if you want to address one using these passages, hermeneutically you really ought to address the other. Otherwise, you’re just cherry-picking, most likely on the basis of fundamental soap boxes.

Like, ahem, entertainment. If you demonstrate it’s linked to the subject at hand, I’m game, but until then, maybe….keep to the subject?

Again, if Scripture establishes clearly that an excess of wine is bad—and it does—then what do we make of the fact that in the same verse, it also establishes very clearly that an excess of food is bad? And apart from the fact that preaching on gluttony tends to hit too close to home, tell me why we get a fair amount of emphasis on something not many people are doing, but very little on something that anyone can determine at a glance. Why is that?

I had a massive heart attack 16 months ago. I’ll admit that I was overweight (according to my doctor the term was mildly obese) but my BP, cholesterol. etc. ere within healthy parameters for someone my height and age. I’ve learned a lot about diet in the last year that has changed my life. I’m down around 50 pounds, motivated primarily by the fact that my engine (heart) is now a four-cylinder and it just doesn’t do well in an old big truck body.

I just got back from a check-up with my cardiologist amd I’ll pass on what he said about this subject in simple terms. The typical male caloric intake should be 2000 calories and sodium intake around 2000 mg a day. Non nutritional foods are literally killers (donuts, sodas diet and regular, and desserts.) They’re nice treats but should be rare. (A Krispy Kreme donut is 45 minutes at 3 mph on a treadmill)

Simple truth from the doctor: If your waist at your navel is more than half your height, YOU”RE FAT! and heading for health trouble.

[Bert Perry]

Like, ahem, entertainment. If you demonstrate it’s linked to the subject at hand, I’m game, but until then, maybe….keep to the subject?

Again, if Scripture establishes clearly that an excess of wine is bad—and it does—then what do we make of the fact that in the same verse, it also establishes very clearly that an excess of food is bad? And apart from the fact that preaching on gluttony tends to hit too close to home, tell me why we get a fair amount of emphasis on something not many people are doing, but very little on something that anyone can determine at a glance. Why is that?

I’m just trying to figure out whether or not you take things like gluttony the same way as other things in scripture. In other words, you and others here must have a different overall hermeneutic to be coming to such differences in opinion on scripture. From the way you talk, it seems you believe Aaron Blumer to be intellectually dishonest in his choice to brush aside gluttony and, instead, focus on alcohol. But I don’t think you really believe that, I just think you interpret and apply scripture differently than him and others - which is why I asked questions about other things in the Bible, to try to gauge how you interpret scripture.

How about divorce and remarriage? Do you believe the Bible authorizes divorce and, if so, under what circumstances? Do you believe the Bible authorizes remarriage and, if so, under what circumstances? No, I’m not really looking for an answer to those questions, but we can come to differences in opinion on a huge variety of issues in the Bible and yet still recognize that we are, indeed, born again believers who will share in heaven’s glories. Many, like me, believe alcohol is far more insidious and dangerous than you; I am dumbfounded that any American Christian would say it’s “okay” and even “good” to drink alcohol considering the devastating impact it has on so many aspects of our country. You believe gluttony/overeating is worse. Maybe you’re right; I’m certainly not there with you yet.

I think the bottom line, though, is that these are all sins of the heart. When we are rightly related to God, walking in the Spirit, we do not sin, we cannot sin. Only when I am walking in the flesh do I sin. If I am rightly related to God while I am eating Thanksgiving dinner, walking in the Spirit, I can be confident that I was not a glutton - even if some human medical expert tells me gravy, mashed potatoes, apple pie a la mode, and a can of Coke are horrible for my health. We could talk all day about what we eat and find that we’d all have to go back to being farmers if we wanted to consume only that which was good for our Temples. My conscience tells me that when I’m walking in the light, in fellowship with God, that it is a blessing from him to enjoy food, even if, sometimes, I consume more than my body needs at that moment in time in caloric intake or if it contains substances that not only lack healthiness but are actually bad for me (back to the buttery mashed potatoes and Coke example). Am I enjoying the food because I am thankful God provided it, or am I driven to consume whatever I want at all times regardless the impact it has to my body? That, I believe, is the fundamental, important question.

But bringing this back to the topic at hand, there is nothing good about alcohol that I can’t get elsewhere. And there is an abundance of bad. Any so-called health benefits from alcoholic beverages can easily be obtained without drinking alcohol. Some like the taste and call it a blessing; I argue wisdom tells me to run away from it because no human knows if he will be the one who will fight with the chemical dependency for the rest of his life because he tried it. This same wisdom tells me to run away from gambling, porneia, tobacco, opioids, and any other of the things that have proven, historically, to be addicting.

[Bert Perry]

Again, if Scripture establishes clearly that an excess of wine is bad—and it does—then what do we make of the fact that in the same verse, it also establishes very clearly that an excess of food is bad? And apart from the fact that preaching on gluttony tends to hit too close to home, tell me why we get a fair amount of emphasis on something not many people are doing, but very little on something that anyone can determine at a glance. Why is that?

At my church, we rarely hear preaching against specific sins, although it does come up in the context of things that happen when we are not walking in the Spirit. When the preaching is almost strictly exegesis, working through books, you come across whatever topic happens to be in the book, of course; but telling someone not to sin is less effective than pointing someone to Christ, which helps them realize why they sin - because, at that point in time, they were failing to walk in the Spirit. The Don’t Do It becomes less the focus - it becomes less about the individual and what he shouldn’t do and, instead, it becomes more about depending on Christ, submitting our will to his, knowing that when we are in the Spirit overcoming temptation to sin is much easier…no, it is infinitely easier.

“Preach what’s in the Word, not what’s on your soapbox. And let’s define it properly; it’s eating, at various times or consistently, more than your body needs to operate.”

Bert, you call for preaching the word, not what’s on your soapbox, and then you give a definition for gluttony that you provided, not one from the Scriptures. Science has measurements they use to define obesity. The Scriptures do condemn gluttony. But who decides at what point the scientific definition of obesity moves someone into the realm of being guilty of the sin of gluttony?

Go back and read your post. You decided what a glutton was, not the Scriptures:

“The glutton is the person who eats at one sitting a lot more than he needs (think Thanksgiving or a Super Bowl Party), or who consistently eats more than he needs.”

Chapter and verse?

I am not excusing the poor stewardship many have in regards to the care of their bodies. There are many ways people knowingly harm themselves.

But you also said this: “You only get those stores of fat by eating more calories over time than you burn; there is no other way.”

Actually there are other ways. There are people with medical conditions and disorders where they eat a very low calorie diet—any lower and they would encounter other medical problems, and yet the weight just keeps climbing. They don’t want to be over-weight, but there is little they can do about it.

Also, joint replacements are not always associated with carrying around excessive weight. I know of several people who had both knees replaced and were otherwise physically fit.

This is a valid topic, and I agree with the premise that preaching should include being good stewards of the physical bodies God has given us…but we should be careful not to paint everyone with the same brush—especially if we are relying on scientific definitions and relating them to the Scriptures in a way not defined by the Scriptures themselves.

Darrell, it is worth noting that I did in fact provide a link to the definitions of “zolel” and “phagos” that indeed does back up what I’m saying. The root words for gluttony do indeed convey a general sense of excess. Again, that tight stomach/nausea after overeating, or gaining fat around the body.

And that’s a big reason why I disagree with one of Aaron’s main claims in his earlier link that a person can get fairly overweight (or even obese) without gluttony. While it can certainly sneak up on you—you can gain 50lbs of fat in 50 years with ten extra calories per day(3500 calories/lb of fat)—your body is indeed mute testimony to your moderation or excess.

Really, if we’re going to follow a chain of hypotheses to go from the very Biblical proscription of drunkenness to a general prescription for abstinence from wine, exactly why would we refuse to follow the statistically documented correlations of overweight/poor diet/lack of exercise to start teaching more on gluttony? Really, when we compare our approaches, we’re inverting the normal hierarchy of evidence, statistical evidence being ignored for hypotheses.

And regarding the notion that there are other ways to put on extra weight than extra calories; that’s nonsense, Darrell. Pure, unadulterated nonsense. Fat gain is a simple equation of calories in vs. calories out. There are ways (see link) that you can persuade your body it’s satisfied (that’s the root of just about any diet, really), but let’s not pretend that we can get past thermodynamics.

The passages in question are:

• Dt 21.20
• Pr 23.20
• Pr 23.21
• Pr 28.7
• Mt 11.19
• Lk 7.34

Bert says seven, I only see six references. In all but one, Pr 28.7, the term is used in conjunction with drunkenness, “the glutton and the drunkard”, etc.

Whatever gluttony means in the Bible, it is clearly connected to drunkenness. It is an excess in the same way. It may even be the same excess.

I think that people tend to overeat. I agree its not healthy, not good stewardship, etc. But is it gluttony according to the Bible? Is it overindulgence in the same way drunkenness is overindulgence? What is that way?

The problem is that we have to eat, we don’t have to drink alcohol. When there is abundance, we can habituate ourselves to eating too much, and that will show itself. But to say that is gluttony is a stretch in my mind.

I think I should write a little more on the nonsense idea that one can gain fat without excess calories. While there are some medical conditions (e.g. thyroid diseases) that can greatly change the metabolism, that does not change the fact that if you’re putting on fat, you are eating too many calories, period. One might argue that a lipoma—fatty tumor generally beneath the skin—is an example, but again, if you’re not taking in more calories than you’re burning, that lipoma can only grow by taking fat from elsewhere in the body, upon which it becomes obvious and you hire a surgeon to fix that issue.

The only quasi-exception to this pattern is when a tumor or water retention adds to the non-fatty tissues of the body, and I’ve made it explicit that I am talking about fat. But even there, when you gain weight, that’s a sign that something is different.

As a rule, when people argue “oh, there are all these other ways to gain weight than overeating”,that’s usually a dodge to get around the fact that they’re fairly overweight. Very often, it’s visible at a glance, and at other times, the old 1970s “gut check” can work wonders; take off your shirt, pinch your skin to the side of your navel, and tell me how thick that fold is. Can you pinch an inch? If you can, you’ve got some weight to lose.

Darrel, you have brought up some really good points on gluttony. The points you raise are the reasons that I would like to read a well thought out article on the subject that is supported by scripture. You wrote earlier:

Not everyone who appears to be overweight is guilty of the sin of gluttony. I know some who have medical problems that result in excessive weight gain. I also know of some who literally can eat huge portions of food and desserts and never put on any weight. Its not as easy to decipher as getting someone’s body mass index number and then declaring them being in ‘sin’ if the number is too high.

I could not help but notice that someone hit “dislike” for that post (I copied and pasted the whole thing). I wish I had a scripture to show why what Darrel said would not be liked. If I am missing something, I want to learn. My wife was the one who posted earlier about having so much water weight. She dropped a lot of weight in just a couple of weeks once the medical professional found out that she had both food sensitivities and nutritional deficiencies. These conditions were causing inflammation (Inflammation is not fat). She was actually swelling due to a health condition, not due to her eating too much. She quit eating the foods she was reacting to (many of them were what we would typically consider healthy- she had to stop eating legumes for a while). Once those foods were gone and she started taking supplements for what was lacking in her diet, the inflammation (water not fat) quickly vanished.

The context of what you said was about how to get the ample stores of fat that are a sign of gluttony:

“As such, ample stores of fat are as much a sign of gluttony as bloating and nausea. You only get those stores of fat by eating more calories over time than you burn; there is no other way.”

My point was that there are people who eat minimal calories and yet still put on excess weight. You seem to be ready and willing to label these people as gluttons. It has nothing to do with thermodynamics, but rather with a body chemistry that aggressively stores calories as fat—in a way that is not normal for most folks.

Furthermore you did move from ‘a general sense of excess’ to ‘The glutton is the person who eats at one sitting a lot more than he needs (think Thanksgiving or a Super Bowl Party), or who consistently eats more than he needs’ which is more than what the Scriptures say.

What about the person whose metabolism burns off everything at an incredible rate? Would you label that person a glutton? I know someone like this who is not overweight, can eat incredible amounts of food, including 5 dunkin donuts in one sitting (I would be in pain by the 3rd), and yet he is a normal weight (and ‘hated’ by friends for his ability). Is this man a glutton according to a Scriptural definition? How about by your definition?

JD, I made clear, repeatedly, that I was talking about gaining fat, not water.

Regarding the notion that a medical condition can result in adding fat without excess calories, that is once again absolutely false. The reason is the first law of thermodynamics, as well as the laws of conservation of matter and conservation of energy. Each gram of carbohydrate, protein, fat, or alcohol is either used to make energy (with water/carbon dioxide/etc. excreted, etc..), form muscle and connective tissue (proteins), not digested/excreted, or stored as fat. So if you’re gaining fat, you have a surplus of nutrients coming in. Always.

For the two examples, that means that the person who gains fat despite “eating like a bird” in our view is still eating too much for their metabolism and activity level. You might get that checked out (e.g. hypothyroid conditions), but dietetically, it means the person is getting too much food. Conversely, it means that the person who eats “like a horse” but doesn’t gain weight isn’t being a glutton because they’re simply eating an amount of food that corresponds to their metabolism and activity level. Again, you might get it checked out—weight loss is an early sign of many cancers—but eating like Michael Phelps is not gluttony if you’re training like him, too.

Put strictly speaking for JD—my mom was a dietician and I learned a bit—that might also mean that you’re going to want to look closely at how quickly your food gets into your blood, as large amounts of sugar wreak havoc with your insulin response. That large Coke at McDonald’s may get you through the day, but it’ll do nasty things for your blood sugar and fat in your blood. Check out www.eatright.org (Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics) for a lot more info on this.

Regarding the point that there isn’t anything in wine that you can’t get elsewhere, well, that’s almost true. You can buy resveratrol tablets or eat a lot of dark grapes, and you can get blood thinners and diuretics that work in a similar way to alcohol, to be sure. But let’s go with it. Sure, there’s no need or particular advantage to wine with the exception that people can enjoy it in moderation.

But that noted, if you go to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (again, eatright.org), you’ll learn that there is absolutely no food that you absolutely need. So let’s play the game of “you don’t need this” with other foods. Let’s cut out that Coke, that butter, all those eggs, and forget about that steak. No chocolate, no coffee….all of a sudden, what we’ve done is to keep everything you need in your diet, and it’s quite frankly a diet that you will absolutely HATE.

Thankfully, the Scripture does not use this approach with any food, including wine. And that’s my point. If Scripture does not condemn the person whose wine-vats are full by God’s blessing for using those wine-vats in moderation, neither should we.

[Bert Perry]

Thankfully, the Scripture does not use this approach with any food, including wine. And that’s my point. If Scripture does not condemn the person whose wine-vats are full by God’s blessing for using those wine-vats in moderation, neither should we.

But the Bible does not warn against specific foods, just against “gluttony” (pick the translation/interpretation of the word of choice - doesn’t matter here). There are warnings against alcohol specifically, but I don’t know of any warnings concerning eggs, butter, or steak (unless it was offered to idols ;)). Not the same conversation.

“Regarding the notion that a medical condition can result in adding fat without excess calories, that is once again absolutely false.”

You put someone with a low thyroid in an impossible situation Bert. You accuse them of taking in too many calories, but if they get any fewer, they would battle incredible fatigue and other problems. Someone close to me developed thyroid disease as a teenager, and the condition worsened throughout adulthood until the point it became a dangerous thyroid cancer that had to be surgically removed. But a decade before the cancer, a doctor decided to take her off thyroid treatment altogether to see what it would do. She did not change her diet, which was balanced and healthy, and yet the pounds started adding on. Going on a diet to eat less to try and stop the weight gain led to a much greater degree of fatigue and failure to thrive. The only option was to get back on the synthroid and the weight came off—again with no change in diet or exercise.

So in a way, your statement itself was absolutely false, because for this person, eating a healthy diet, taking in just enough calories to fend of extreme fatigue was still resulting in the addition of fat. Do you see my point? Eating any less would cause a significant health crisis, but the calories kept getting wrongly stored as excess fat. She didn’t want to gain weight and only ate enough to stave off the weakness due to the lack of proteins and calories being put to work to keep the body functioning. Her broken body was wrongly storing it up as fat instead of using it the way it should be used.

The bottom line is we are in decaying bodies marred by sin. Our bodies can be broken by a host of problems, and for some people the best of intensions when it comes to calorie intake still does not resolve their problems with weight gain.

And for the record, the person I described above along with myself are both a healthy weight. I was ‘blessed’ to have inherited a very wide skeletal frame from a very wide German great-grandmother. So I typically weigh a little more than what my height says I should weigh on the government provided charts. But no one would look at me and think me obese or anything.

So I am not arguing on this thread from perspective where I am trying to play a ‘get out of obese free’ card. But I do have some overweight friends, and I hurt for them in their struggle with their health. I don’t know about each of their conditions although I know at least two of them have a severe and life-threatening battle with auto-immune disease—a complicating factor with their weight gain.

I dunno, Darrell, Seems to me that I know a young man with a thyroid condition who’s doing quite well because he went to the doctor and started taking his medication. Maybe that’s an impossible condition in your view, but honestly…

And reality is that every time one of you guys mentions “difficult cases”, what comes to mind for me is the 95% plus of cases of obesity where there isn’t any underlying physical problem for the obese except a tendency to put too much food down the ‘ol pie hole while not getting exercise.

It’s a dodge, and a pretty pathetic one in my view too. You’ve got 1/2 to 2/3 of most congregations overweight and obese, with 600,000 people dying from the consequences each year, and all you can do is say “we need to prevent Christians from enjoying a glass of wine because somewhere, somehow, someone might accidentally get drunk and get hurt.” And when people who have enjoyed wine responsibly tell you exactly why that’s extremely unlikely, you ignore it.

If you wonder why pastors often don’t preach the full counsel of God, and why you get hedging on things that are brutally affecting Christians, re-read this thread.

Bert,

Some people do lack self-control with their knife and fork—I never said otherwise. My point is that anyone who would preach on this topic had better be well-informed, understand medical conditions and approach this stewardship issue biblically. Paint with a broad brush from your pulpit and you will literally crush someone who already suffers from the shame of excess weight—someone who longs to be shed of it, but whose health condition and broken body prevents them from getting there—and then you stand in the pulpit and add the weight of them being guilty of the sin of gluttony and you will crush them.

Bert,

I assume all of the members in your church are thin, correct? Because, based on statements you have made in this thread, everyone who isn’t is living in sin and are therefore subject to church discipline.

I’m curious to learn how the principles of gluttony as you interpret them are scripturally applied in your church. Can you share?

May I humbly suggest that we are defining biblical gluttony almost exclusively on the current American/western viewpoint of acceptable/unacceptable body image? Frankly, beyond being a ridiculous assumption, the current emphasis on body image in the good ‘ol USA is knocking hard on the door of being a cultural idolatry.

A 44 inch waist on a six foot man is not a “body image” problem, it’s a medically diagnosed and proven health problem.

If a doctor diagnoses your obesity is the result of an actual glandular problem for which you are not responsible, that’s understandable. Just don’t make excuses for yourself. Your bones aren’t that big and the only glandular problem you have is your elbow gland.

Now let’s get back to the OP and admit that alcohol is a wisdom issue but being overweight is as harmful to the human body as cigarettes and probably more so.

I think I’ll have some raw kale for a snack!

[Ron Bean]

Now let’s get back to the OP and admit that alcohol is a wisdom issue but being overweight is as harmful to the human body as cigarettes and probably more so.

I, for one, am very pleased to see you come to agree that alcohol is a wisdom issue - it is unwise to consume it! ;)

I will not concede, however, that a) being overweight = sin of gluttony or that b) it is as harmful to the human body as cigarettes.

On that note, you should do a study to find out which is more detrimental to society (to the individual and to others combined) - tobacco products or alcohol. You may be surprised to find the latter easily outranks tobacco use problems. Interestingly, the Bible doesn’t specifically warn against smoking but it certainly does warn, in very strong terms, against alcohol. Kind of difficult to get around those warnings, brother, and I just can’t for the life of me figure out why you insist on claiming God blesses something and give strong caution against it.

Bert, I encourage you to do some in depth research on thyroid conditions if you start writing your article on gluttony. Thyroid conditions can be the result of an overactive or an underactive thyroid, so just using the example of someone you know may not be the the whole story. My wife’s issues were also thyroid related. Her thyroid was actually going from under to over active and back and forth. She was actually undernourished and still gaining weight (most of it water, but some fat as well. She had went from being on the lower end toward the higher end of the BMI recommendation). Essentially because of the thyroid problem and other issues she could not get all the nutrients she needed from her food. Sure, you can reduce calories to reduce fat, but if that kills you because you are undernourished that is not honoring to the temple of the Holy Spirit.

We are praising God that we found someone who specializes in such things. She is now taking a dietary and supplement approach. This was not as simple as just going to a dietitian and finding a healthy recommendation. Crystal has regular blood tests and checkups to keep things in line and she is at a healthy weight- even by your standards. Most people do not even have access to the type of treatment she is getting because it is a new cutting edge approach. Most would consider it alternative medicine, but it is actually coming out of one of the main hospitals in Sioux Falls, and there is a waiting line to get in.

I am not suggesting that being overweight is not a sin issue for some people, I am just concerned that we not paint with too broad a brush.

…..maybe I’ve learned that with a degree of tweaking, either hyperthyroid or hypothyroid can be treated? Yes, there would be a few “corner cases”, and perhaps your wife’s was one of them, but….we’re going to build theology off of corner cases? Really?

Well, I guess to be fair, that’s exactly what the “wisdom” argument is for completely abstaining from alcohol instead of simply avoiding overindulgence, which is of course what Scripture actually says. The argument is a corner case that a few moderate users might fall into drunkenness accidentally and have horrendous results. No actual statistics are presented, of course, but it could happen. Maybe.

Really, a lot of this debate bears a lot of similarity to Jason’s absurd claim that more people die from alcohol than tobacco. For alcohol—including the drunks that all parties here agree are sinning—it’s 88000 per year from all causes, and for tobacco, 480,000 people die each year . More or less, tobacco kills about half of those who ever smoked. (come on, Jason, you can do better than this—this is a 30 second Google search)

And fine if you want to believe that associating obesity with gluttony is just cultural, but quite frankly this is not exactly something that started with Richard Simmons and Jane Fonda. For that matter, look at Deuteronomy 32:15—Jesherun grew fat and rebelled. Ahem. And what was the sin of Sodom? Look in Ezekiel 16:49; they were overfed, among other things. What does Proverbs 30:9 say? Huh, isn’t excessive fat a sign of too much food?

Sorry, guys, but you’re arguing against Scripture here, both by arguing that we can be “wiser” than our Savior if we don’t do what He did, and by arguing that gluttony is not something that we ought to be interested in. Science and Scripture come together here.

[Bert Perry]

Really, a lot of this debate bears a lot of similarity to Jason’s absurd claim that more people die from alcohol than tobacco. For alcohol—including the drunks that all parties here agree are sinning—it’s 88000 per year from all causes, and for tobacco, 480,000 people die each year . More or less, tobacco kills about half of those who ever smoked. (come on, Jason, you can do better than this—this is a 30 second Google search)

Be careful, Bert - you put words into my mouth. I did not compare deaths, I compared which is more detrimental to society. I’ve never heard of domestic abuse or sexual assault associated with tobacco use, nor have I heard of a BTC (Blood Tobacco Content) level or experienced any MACSD (Mothers Against Cigarette Smoking and Driving) campaigns. I am in the Navy. Even the Navy is beginning to “get it” - that most sexual assault and abuse cases occur when someone is intoxicated…and they don’t know what to do with it (drunken sailors, after all).

[JNoël]

On that note, you should do a study to find out which is more detrimental to society (to the individual and to others combined) - tobacco products or alcohol.

……..

[Bert Perry]

Sorry, guys, but you’re arguing against Scripture here, both by arguing that we can be “wiser” than our Savior if we don’t do what He did, and by arguing that gluttony is not something that we ought to be interested in. Science and Scripture come together here.

Conjecture. You are assuming Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

And I am not arguing that gluttony is not something in which we should be interested.

Huh, isn’t excessive fat a sign of too much food?

In the OT/ANE being fat was a sign of being rich or prosperous. It was not a sign of gluttony or sin.

So in Deut 30:9, it is an irony that Israel got fat off of God’s blessing and then rebelled. Ezekiel 16:49 is about an excess of food due to prosperity (which is the very next phrase). Prov 30:9 references the well-known phenomenon of someone becoming prosperous and turning away from Lord because they no longer sense their need of him.

Besides you missed the classic reference in Amos 4:1 where wives are called “cows of Bashan,” basking in their prosperity and demanding more of their husbands. No discussion of gluttony is complete until somebody’s wife has been called a cow.

Listen, failure to understand the Bible in its historical context leads to silly applications. We should condemn gluttony as the Bible does, but don’t take an image of prosperity from God and make it an indicator of sin. People who are in impoverished states are thin because they are unhealthy, not because they are righteous with respect to the sin of gluttony. And let’s not forget that genetics plays a major role, as does lifestyle, other health factors, etc.

Frankly, all the stuff about food seems little more than a red herring, an attempt to draw away attention. Scripture does not warn about the intoxicating and altering affects of food the way it does about alcohol. It is simply bad exegesis and bad biblical application to pretend the two are the same. And that doesn’t mean all drinking is sinful or that gluttony is acceptable. It simply recognizes that the Bible does not treat them the same.

We also should note again, as has been pointed out, that we are using modern categories of health to describe