When Father Doesn't Know Best, Part 2
Republished, with permission, from Voice magazine, Sept./Oct 2011. Read Part 1.
Child discipline and the Bible
Once upon a time Father knew best, and once upon a time we allowed Him to teach us how to parent. In Deuteronomy 8:3, God acknowledges humbling Israel and allowing them even to go hungry (of course, only to a point), calling it parental discipline (Hebrew yaser, LXX Greek paideusai) in Deuteronomy 8:5. Solomon counsels his reader not to reject the Lord’s discipline (same Hebrew and Greek roots as in Deuteronomy 8) and reminds that the Lord reproves those He loves, “as a father the son in whom he delights” (Prov. 3:11-12). Solomon suggests. further, “reproofs for discipline are the way of life” (Prov. 6:23b), “whoever loves discipline loves knowledge” (Prov. 12:1), and “a wise son accepts his father’s discipline” (Prov. 13:1a).
Not only does Solomon communicate the importance of discipline, but he also relays an important method, saying, “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him diligently” (Prov. 13:24), and “foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of discipline will remove it far from him” (Prov. 22:15). He adds, “Do not hold back discipline from the child, although you beat [or smite] him, he will not die” (Prov. 23:13). From these contexts it is easy to see that Solomon is not advocating cruelty and physical damage. Rather, in no uncertain terms Solomon portrays physical discipline as an expression of love for the purpose of training and fostering growth—and according to Solomon, it has to hurt.
In addition to discussing purpose and method, Solomon also expresses the urgency of parental discipline: “Discipline your son while there is hope, and do not desire his death” (Prov. 19:27); “You shall beat him with the rod and deliver his soul from Sheol” (Prov. 23:14). Solomon contends that if a parent is not disciplining forcefully (causing pain) and intentionally (with love and for growth), that parent is sentencing his child to walk a path endangered by stupidity (Prov. 12:1b), poverty and shame (Prov. 13:18a), self loathing (Prov. 15:32a), straying from knowledge (Prov. 19:27), foolishness (Prov. 22:15), and even premature death (Prov. 19:18; 23:14).
Wow. Those are strong words, indeed. Surely, we can’t take Solomon seriously right? Jesus acknowledged the great wisdom of Solomon (Matthew 12:42), and the writer of Chronicles tells us from where this wisdom came, and consequently why we must take Solomon seriously:
God said to Solomon, “Because you had this in mind, and did not ask for riches, wealth or honor, or the life of those who hate you, nor have you even asked for long life, but you have asked for yourself wisdom and knowledge that you may rule My people over whom I have made you king, wisdom and knowledge have been granted to you. And I will give you riches and wealth and honor, such as none of the kings who were before you has possessed nor those who will come after you.” (2 Chron. 1:11)
Particularly notable to me, considering the occasion of this article, is that last phrase: “…nor those who will come after you.” While this is a specific reference to forthcoming kings of Israel, nonetheless, I wonder if Jose Longoria would consider his statement to have a greater weight of wisdom than Solomon’s teachings on discipline. I must strongly commend Judge Longoria for his desire to ensure that children are protected in accordance with the law. He is probably familiar with many cases in which children have been greatly harmed by parental irresponsibility and cruelty. For example, a Texas man was recently arrested for allegedly causing the death of his two year old daughter by a spanking episode (Fox News, viewed 10/3/2011). Still, I must consider Judge Longoria to be strongly mistaken in his consideration of how such protection should be accomplished: eliminating spanking altogether. His statement certainly is incompatible with the biblical concept of discipline.
Of course, the biblical data on parental discipline is not limited to the Hebrew Bible, but is also prominent in later Scripture as well. Paul exhorts fathers, “do not provoke your children to anger; but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” (Ephesians 6:4). In this passage Paul employs the same Greek term, translated discipline, as is translated by the LXX of Moses’ and Solomon’s admonitions. In this context we discover that discipline is part of a three-pronged parental approach that additionally includes instruction (the non-painful aspect of teaching) and an acute sensitivity on the part of the parent to avoid the potential provocation that can so easily accompany the instructive and disciplinary processes.
The writer of Hebrews further indicates that discipline is foundational to the relationship of parent and child, that the human parent-child relationship illustrates the relationship between God and His children, and that though discipline is sorrowful, its results are joyous. The words are poignant and worth repeating here:
It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. (Heb. 12:7-11)
Finally, Christ proclaims, “Those whom I love I reprove and discipline” (Rev. 3:19a). Ultimately, our discipline comes from Him and serves His purposes. We understand from these passages that discipline is a correction and pruning process that usually (if not always) requires at least some degree of pain, is always to be conducted in love, and is never intended to punish but always to instruct. We also understand that God as our Father models this discipline in our own lives and we are called to be receptive and teachable, even submissive to our Heavenly Father as the Creator who best knows how we should be trained and what best causes our growth.
How should we respond?
So, how should we respond when our society concludes that Father doesn’t know best? While of course I lament the continual erosion of religious freedom in this country, knowing from history the terrible oppression that is the inevitable result, it does not seem we are called presently to revolution, rebellion, or retreat. Perhaps two simple suggestions can help us to deal biblically with these challenges.
First, I suggest that we consider and appreciate that we do indeed have a place in the public square. And as such we can be influential in the shaping of society, and that we must keep in mind that this seat at the public discourse—be it a privilege or a right—should not be viewed as our primary role. We may, as individual members of the body of Christ, heavily influence public policy from time to time and we must be grateful to be part of a society in which an aspect of submission to government is in the shaping of that very government.
We must not take these things for granted, and we should not fear giving voice in the public square. Still, we must realize that Jesus didn’t die and rise again to save society. He died and rose again to save people. The means to revitalizing society is not broad political or humanly derived theocratic agendas. These have historically given rise to their own forms of oppression (as human solutions are always tarnished with sin and imperfection). But rather the means to revitalizing society involves the person-to-person sharing of the love of Christ and individual conduct in the manner He prescribes. If society is to be biblically moral in its ideas and conduct (and we know that it will never be fully so until God Himself ushers in eternity, making an end of sin), it will be so only by the grace of God and through the collective influence of Godly men, women, and children on people.
We must not forget that the disciples were called fishers of men, not fishers of societies and nations. God will deal with societies and nations. Ultimately they are accountable to Him. Ours is not to judge them or to hold them to an ethical standard under which they have never been placed. Remember, only believers are commanded to conduct themselves in godliness, while unbelievers are commanded to believe in Him for new life. Why would we expect unbelievers to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit whom they do not have? Still He calls us as His children to demonstrate His character to those around us. It seems that we should be socially active and responsible, but not obsessive. Our priorities must be in order.
Second, I suggest we consider the example of Daniel, who was above reproach (Dan. 6:5), and who had a habit of praying with windows opened and kneeling, facing Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10). When those trying to destroy him were successful in putting forth a law forbidding prayer to all but King Darius (Dan. 6:8-9), Daniel did not alter his course—he continued doing what he had done previously (Daniel 6:10). He did not incite revolution or conspire against the king nor against the officials who set out to harm Daniel. He did not rebel by becoming any more outspoken. Nor did he retreat by hiding or discontinuing his habitual prayer. Instead, he was steady in maintaining prayer and also in fulfilling his duties to the king inasmuch as was possible, in light of the king’s edict. When the two finally conflicted, Daniel unhesitatingly continued his service to God despite its freshly minted illegal status.
When consequences came, just as before, Daniel did not resort to revolution, rebellion or retreat. Instead he submitted to the king, accepting the consequence (death) for his actions (Dan. 6:7,12,17). When King Darius saw how righteously Daniel had behaved, and how God protected Daniel, Darius could do naught but glorify God and decree that men should treat Daniel’s God with requisite honor (Dan. 6:26-27).
Daniel’s goal was not to reform his society, but to obey God. Yet God used Daniel’s righteousness and obedience also in a way that had a remarkable impact on the society in which Daniel lived. When the law of the land decreed that Father didn’t know best, Daniel maintained his conviction to the contrary. Daniel had his priorities straight. What about us?
Christopher Cone Bio
Christopher Cone (ThD, PhD) is the President of Tyndale Theological Seminary and Biblical Institute, pastor of Tyndale Bible Church and author and editor of several books.
- 111 views
[Susan R] I think playing word games muddies waters that are already murky enough. Is there really a difference between “enforcing boundaries” and “punishment” and “consequences”? No - there isn’t. Try telling some guy in jail that he isn’t being punished- society is just “enforcing boundaries”. Ditto a child being sent to their room for a ‘time out’. All of those terms describe what is happening true - they are not mutually exclusive nor do they cancel each other out. Children need to understand that, and Scripture gives us a variety of ways to teach this principle to our children, one of which is the literal, physical rod.It is tremendously important that we distinguish between punishment and discipline. The entire doctrine of salvation hinges on this distinction.
Punitive or penal measures exist in the context of law and seek to redress grievances. It is what Aristotle called rectificatory (διορθωτικός) justice. It is not the person being corrected, but the wrong. It is settling the score:
The law looks only at the nature of damage, treating the parties as equal, and merely asking whether one has done and the other suffered injustice, whether one inflicted and the other has sustained damage. Hence the unjust being here the unequal, the judge endeavors to equalize it: inasmuch as when one man has received and the other has inflicted a blow, or one has killed and the other been killed, the line representing the suffering and doing of the deed is divided into unequal parts, but the judge endeavors to make them equal by the penalty or loss he imposes, taking away the gain.This idea of rectificatory justice is the foundation of the (originally Calvinist) doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement. It is expressed most clearly in the terms of covenant theology. Adam was charged with perfect obedience; his the successful completion of his charge was to result in immortality and blessedness for himself and all his descendents. The penalty was death, both for himself and all his descendents. He failed. Jesus, however, as a second Adam, perfectly kept the law, winning the reward of Adam. In order to apply that reward to anyone, though, he had to remove the curse caused by the first Adam. His death is the penal substitution for Adam’s sin. This grounds the doctrine of twofold justification: both the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of Christ’s active obedience. Justice is served. (Even those post-Calvinist Protestants who don’t subscribe to classical covenant theology should still be able to recognize the punitive underpinnings of the atonement and justification.)
Discipline or training is connected to the Greek word παιδεια (paideia). It concerns the formation of children. It is the process by which a child, under the guidance of tutors, develops physically, mentally, and socially into a well-formed adult. As such, it is primarily a positive thing. A common Greek phrase is παιδεια και τροφη (discipline and nurture). Now, paideia in the Greco-Roman world was not always what we would consider gentle today. However, it was non-punitive. The goal of discipline is not to redress wrong but to encourage positive growth. Why do basketball coaches make their players run sprints? Because they offended the coach, and he seeks satisfaction for the wrong done against him? No! So they will be quicker.
The life of the believer under sanctification is not penal. It cannot be. God does not have any more wrongs to right. Yet, he exercises discipline toward his people. God never acts toward his children except for their training in righteousness. Satisfaction for wrong or redress for grievance never enters into the equation. That said, both the Bible and life experience makes it clear that paideia is not always pleasant, and it involves measures that we certainly would not choose for ourselves. Punishment and discipline may sometimes look similar, but they are always distinguishable by the intention behind them. Because the intentions behind them are different, it does mean that there is much more flexibility in paideia than in punishment. One of my former pastors used to say that if you want to parent punitively, then you have to punish every single wrong. To do differently would be to miscarry justice. After all, God does not just pass over any sin. Every single wrong (at least for the elect) was accounted for in the atonement; every single penalty paid.
Now, corporal punishment is not necessarily punitive. Anne realizes this, since she said that parents are free to spank; she would not say parents are free to parent punitively. However, I think that she is right in thinking that much spanking, and probably other forms of punishment as well, arise from the parents’ mistakenly pursuing a punitive paradigm. That’s a shame; these are truths about our salvation that ought to be influencing the way we live our lives.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
To better explain my point, here are 3 scenarios (the Reader’s Digest Condensed Version and totally on the fly):
A child is wigging out and:
*the parent is exasperated, and instead of dealing with the misbehavior, sends the child to their room to get them out of their sight.
*the parent knows that the child hates to be alone, and in their anger vindictively sends the child to their room.
*the parent spends time verbally addressing the misbehavior and explaining the consequences, and believes the best solution at that time is for the child to spend some time alone in their room.
What is the difference between these three scenarios? The motive/intent of the parent. The first is sloth, the second is vengeance, and the third is teaching/training. This is not determined by the actions of the child, and technically not determined by the form of discipline. However, because of the demeanor of the parent, each of these children will learn a different lesson from this scenario. The parent’s attitude determines whether or not correction is punitive or an act of discipling as much as the method itself.
Regardless of how you ‘enforce boundaries’ with young children, they do not view a thwarting of their desires as being anything other than punishment. Older children can reason the ‘cause-effect’ aspect of consequences for misconduct, but they will still view a removal of privileges as being punitive because that is how our flesh perceives it. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to learn to love correction.
In any case, the behaviors and attitudes that the parents model will be the main teaching tool in the life of the family, and that is why it is problematic to view discipline as being all about the methods and not about the people involved, and why attempting to stigmatize spanking as being inherently punitive while granting inherent ‘grace’ to other methods of ‘enforcing boundaries’ or ‘experiencing consequences’ is just word games.
Often, talk of paradigms is a way of winning a debate before it occurs. If somebody succeeds in framing the question as a choice between two options, for example, they can easily paint the option that is not theirs in a sinister/inferior light.
If you think about it, you can see how easy this is to do… imagine that the question is a big piece of pie and your answer to it is a sliver an inch or two wide at the end. If you can lump all the other answers together, all you have to do to reject them is find the worst elements in the rest of the pie. This is easy to do because the rest of the pie is so large.
To use another analogy, suppose you want to prove that retrievers are the best dogs. You could frame the debate as follows: “Which are best, retrievers or non-retrievers?” If readers don’t notice what you’ve done, they’ll be open to this kind of argument:
- non retrievers have been bred for fighting (true of pit bulls)
- non retrievers tire easily (true of pugs)
- non retrievers constantly drool (true of some types of hound)
See the fallacy? But this sort of argument works well for folks who already suspect that retrievers are best, fear that non retrievers are bad, or have some other kind of tilt toward the conclusion.
Someone who is coming at the question from even ground—or has a non-retriever that is great (beagle maybe) finds the argument wholly unpersuasive.
So in anti-spanking lit., look for framing tricks. (They don’t necessarily do it deceitfully… probably not. It’s just that when you already want to believe something it’s easy to not notice that your argument is unsound)
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Aaron Blumer] It’s just that when you already want to believe something it’s easy to not notice that your argument is unsoundThese are true, true words. This is often what leads to eisegesis.
That option would be…
- Less painful for me
- More socially acceptable
- More academically acceptable
- Legally safer
- Easier to depict as gracious
Ro 5:3–5 ESV Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Jas 1:2–4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[Christopher Cone] Perhaps in the very near future I will write an article for this website (if the Editor is interested in such an article) on a Biblical Theology of Discipline, which will show the exegetical work (in Hebrew and Greek) leading to the conclusions that physical discipline is indeed mandated in the Bible, thus providing the simple answer to the question: “Why should I spank my kids?” I will propose the idea to the Editor, and if he has interest I will write the article. Then you can review it and consider whether or not it is an accurate handling of the text.ccone@tyndale.edu.Personally,. I would love to read an article like that. I hope SI would encourge Chistopher to do it and place it on th sit. As a mattter of fact, a book no the theology of discipline wuld be even better.
I grew up using James Dobson’s practical advice on disciple…actually, only read one or two books. They have been a great help. But a Theology of Discipline is, as I see it, a great need; I do not know of any book that has approached discipline from the way Christopher proposes to write an article.
[Aaron Blumer]… is that I don’t ever have to spank, or do anything intentionally painful in training my children.I am here to testify that this is not true. I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream. Do you all think I enjoy these discussions? Like James dumping his hate and scarcasm all over me? …
That option would be…But I don’t get to have it that way. The grace of God teaches… and we know that this teaching includes pain.
- Less painful for me
- More socially acceptable
- More academically acceptable
- Legally safer
- Easier to depict as gracious
Ro 5:3–5 ESV Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Jas 1:2–4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Grace to you, James. I once was you. If not for God’s hand, I would be the same, same way. My sinful person is the same as yours.
I think the idea of pain is distracting us. I find pain very useful and very painful. My children experience pain. Life is full of it. I don’t inflict it upon them through spanking. But it is painful for them when I say, no I’m sorry, you can’t have another cookie, when I tell them they have to brush their teeth and hair when they don’t want to? Life is painful. Being sinful is painful.
But there is a huge, enormous difference between punitive and grace parenting, and Charlie is trying to explain it. It is all about our salvation. It is, for example, me being on the same team as my children, not seeing our negative interactions as a “battle of wills” that I “must win.” But seeing that both my children and I are sinners, that we both struggle with our sin natures daily, and we are thankful for grace—that Christ took our punishment and curse on the cross (Isaiah 53)—that I can come along side them and help them unto obedience though imperfectly.
… I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.
While you see sarcasm from me, I am really expressing concern over your erroneous views of God and his grace. You don’t deal in substance. I gave you the greek word in Heb 12 and its definition. This is how God deals with us. So in your closing when you say
I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.you fail to take in all of what God said and how he deals with us. You have a distorted view so naturally your method will be distorted. He has taught us how to teach and love our children. Failing to spank fails to do both.
As for being once like me, I hope you aren’t anything like me. Our goal is Christlikeness. If you are talking about my view of spanking, then I hope one day you come back to a reality based form of parenting as set forth in the Scriptures rather than culture and convenience.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
[handerson] so do I discipline/correct/punish (whatever you want to call it) a repentant child even if they’ve broken an obvious rule?I woudn’t “punish” my child. As far as discipline (as teaching), I think it really depends on the child and the situation. What is the purpose of the teaching if the child is already repentant? There may be consquences that have naturally arisen from the situation, and I would probably not nix the natural outcomes and might try to put myself in the place where I bear it with the child. I think it’s a complex decision actually, one where the parent needs to be aware of the child’s personal struggles and spiritual condition. Maybe there would be certain situations where I’d nix the consequences somewhat or at least help lighten them if I felt like the child was too discouraged spiritually. I think that God doesn’t always deal with us negatively when we sin, if you know what I mean. He might insert a positive experience to help encourage us in some way.
I was recently having a conversation with a woman in our church. She’s divorced/single mom, and at one point a few yrs back commited adultery. She was talking about how overwhelmed she was by God’s love to her when it is so undeserved. (And I said, even when we think we’re deserving it, we’re really not ;) ). She said, after I repented from that sin, one week later my son repented and was saved. God didn’t punish me; He blessed me… . . I have been thinking about that.
James, I need to go back to not acknowledging you ;) You make my point. God bless you and your children!
Honestly, I haven’t interacted with you, personally, on this matter because I haven’t read Clarkson’s book so I’m completely ignorant (besides some of these postings here) on what he believes or who he even is. I had never even heard of him until this website.
Personally, I find it hard to ignore passages like Heb. 12:6, where the writer uses the word “scourge” (NASB) which appears 6 other times in the Greek directly relating to physical scourging of the disciples or Jesus Himself. Please, please correct me if I’m wrong. I understand the subject of that word is God Himself, but He is the One Who sets Himself up as the example there, so it is hard for me to ignore. There are others, but I have no doubt you and Clarkson have worked through many, if not all of those passages.
The encouragement I hope I can give to you is in response to when you said this:
I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream.
I found this statement interesting. Assuming the people you “personally know” are Christians, your church family, leaders in your church and other like-minded, saved individuals; swimming upstream is not always a good thing. Again, assuming “your crowd” is a base of solid, loving, Christ-like Christians, like you, then be careful of swimming upstream from them. Not to say we all don’t have our convictions or feel like a salmon at times, but in my case, the folks I “know personally” are ones, who if they are practicing something I’m not, then I’m the one who is going to check and double check my own heart/mind/conclusions/standards/Scripture interpretations. If they are swimming one way, and I’m swimming the other way, particularly in such a practical matter, then I need to rethink some things through Scripture, alone. These are the people I trust with every area of my life, because they serve and are regenerated by the same God. If the people I personally know tell me I’m “the odd man out” I better heed quickly. I don’t want to be innovative or a trailblazer or a pioneer when it comes to Scripture. I want to sink into the background and be as patterned as I can be within the crowd I hang around knowing their (and my) desire is to be conformed to Christ’s image. (Heb. 13:7 stff) After all, we’re a body, and in my case, our church body functions very well, by God’s grace.
Isn’t this what Paul commands Titus to teach? Older women are to teach the younger women how to love their children and be a good worker at home. If the majority of older women have come to the conclusion that spanking is commanded, then my response as a younger woman is to humbly recheck my understanding of Scripture, alone, if I disagree. The implied command in Titus 2:3-5 to younger women is we are to be teachable learning from these older women.
I can understand if these Sharper Iron guys aren’t swaying or persuading you (sorry guys—I mean no disrespect) because frankly, I’m not always convinced either, and I have no doubt many of things I write here are just plain silly to them (rhetorical statement). :) But surely, the people I personally know have great influence on me when it comes to biblical application. These are people I know, trust and serve me without hypocrisy. Their God is my God and their study of Scripture is where I get most of my sharpening (sorry Aaron).
In fact, the only group I want to swim upstream against are the people who succumb to cultural temptations and worldly ways: Acts 5:29 stuff. In my limited knowledge, it is actually the “spankers” who are swimming upstream—and speaking for myself—it is a whitewater, rocky swim.
I hope this helps as you (and I!) continue to walk this journey of desiring to grow and mature into biblical-minded women.
Blessings, Kim :)
Now, those are really good observations that I would like to mention. I have, I think, two friends I’ve actually met in real life who also don’t spank, I think for theological reasons. Oh, maybe three. I have quite a few online acquaintances who have been led by the Lord into this theological understanding of grace, salvation, depravity, etc., and how it applies to our children. And several of them are actually from Bob Jones, where I graduated! Several came out of the woodwork a few months back when I did a piece on Tedd Tripp’s book here on SI.
About our church, oh my, at 35, I feel like I am the older woman ;) My kids are the oldest ones in church. I don’t try to make this much of an issue for example at the mommy group we have. My pastor is my husband, and our other pastor has read, in Russian, an extended letter I wrote to another pastor in town here about this whole issue and other things, and he agrees with it. I was just thinking a few days ago how thankful I am that the *spank more, spank harder* mentality is not a part of our church. We don’t expect perfection from each other, we try to share our struggles, things that worked in our relationships, and try very hard not to judge each other because we are all different in our approaches to mothering and our kids personalities and needs.
Oh, I did remember that we have some elderly ladies in our church, but they really don’t talk about childrearing except for loving on our kids as they can at service times. The elder pastor’s wife, I actually am not sure—she teaches us many things, but childrearing is not one subject she has talked a lot about b/c usually when she’s teaching, it’s to everyone, and only a few of us have kids. We did just do a women’s conference on Freedom for Mothers by Denise Glenn for moms, but we did it as applicable to all women.
My mom read the paper I wrote for SI a few months back about Tedd Tripp’s book, and she thought it wonderful. She added that the NIV Commentary says the same things about the rod passages that Clarkson is saying—it applies to older children. My parents did spank us, but it wasn’t often. As far as I know, I think all my other siblings spank their kids. We just accept each other and don’t make issues of it.
About Hebrews 12, it really helps me to remember that the context is persecuted Christians, not disobedient Christians. Like, if you put yourself in the shoes of the Iranian pastor in prison now (in the filings section), and read Heb 10:32-12, it seem to fit into that context as very encouraging to those who are suffering for Christ’s sake.
I was pondering this whole thing today, and it really occurred to me that spanking is actually just a peripheral issue, a symptomatic issue. The real issues are our own understanding of our total depravity, the extent and nature of salvation, what grace means, our unerstanding of obedience, and stuff like that. I feel like I write very stutteringly on here because it is so hard to put into words. Charlie knows how to do it better than I, and I’m thankful for that. But I am trying to wrap words around it, however frustratingly and imperfectly ;)
I do not enjoy these discussions and would avoid them except that I was once a young mother who felt the Holy Spirit leading her toward gentle discipline. I read the Bible; I argued with what the Holy Spirit was teaching me. I resisted going against the beliefs that I had been taught … and yet God kept drawing me away from spanking my children. God (not The World) showed me how to discipline in this way.
I only enter these discussions for other mothers with whom the Holy Spirit is leading down this path. I enter these discussions and state what God has taught me and the reality that you can be a “Bible-believing” Christian and not spank. I am one. I enter these discussions for the silent readers who are being told that Christian parents MUST spank … that to do otherwise is ignoring scripture and being disobedient to God. Is spanking really such a fundamental to the faith? Is it? If you believe so, that’s fine. However, do not hear the Holy Spirit whispering in your heart to gently and tenderly discipline your children and allow others to tell you that His voice is the voice of The World or of Satan.
[Anne Sokol]Anne, I think James does use overly provocative language at times… probably not helpful. But you also don’t seem to be commenting on point. That is, I’ve made some assertions and supported them but you don’t seem to be addressing the substance much.
I am here to testify that this is not true. I could count on one hand the people I know personally who have chosen not to spank. I am swimming against the stream. Do you all think I enjoy these discussions? Like James dumping his hate and scarcasm all over me? …
Grace to you, James. I once was you. If not for God’s hand, I would be the same, same way. My sinful person is the same as yours.
I think the idea of pain is distracting us. I find pain very useful and very painful. My children experience pain. Life is full of it. I don’t inflict it upon them through spanking. But it is painful for them when I say, no I’m sorry, you can’t have another cookie, when I tell them they have to brush their teeth and hair when they don’t want to? Life is painful. Being sinful is painful.
But there is a huge, enormous difference between punitive and grace parenting, and Charlie is trying to explain it. It is all about our salvation. It is, for example, me being on the same team as my children, not seeing our negative interactions as a “battle of wills” that I “must win.” But seeing that both my children and I are sinners, that we both struggle with our sin natures daily, and we are thankful for grace—that Christ took our punishment and curse on the cross (Isaiah 53)—that I can come along side them and help them unto obedience though imperfectly.
… I love You, God, and I see every day more and more how much You have done for me and come alongside me most gently and lovingly to forgive my sins and clean me from all unrighteousness. Teach me to love my children as You love me.
(Some things that are not in dispute: that sin is painful, that parents should avoid battles of wills—and do everything they can to foster a close nurturing relationship rather than an adversarial one, that saying “no” involves some pain of disappointment on the child’s part, that parenting should be gracious, that Christ took our punishment on the cross, etc. I don’t think anybody here is in favor of viewing parental discipline as punishment—though I agree with Susan that kids are likely to see it that way and only slowly come to understand what’s really going on.)
So, I’m curious. In your view…
- Does God graciously use pain to teach and train His children or not?
- Does Heb. 12 refer to parents using painful discipline and assume that there is nothing wrong with that?
- If not, what is the point in the writer of Hebrews using the analogy?
- Is there a difference between punitive and instructive?
- Was the use of spanking and the like standard practice in Christian homes until recent times?
- Does society and/or academia view it as a valid part of good parenting?
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
What is fundamental is obedience to God’s commands, patterns, and principles, whether we are comfortable with them or not, regardless of what society considers valid, or which direction everyone is swimming.
Discussion