A Tale of Two Colleges
This week brings fascinating news from two colleges. The two institutions are facing almost opposite situations, and the contrast between them is both remarkable and illustrative. Because change occurs constantly, Christian organizations are constantly required to apply their principles to new situations. Cedarville University and Faith Baptist Bible College provide a clear contrast in terms of how new applications might take place.
The school that is now Cedarville University started out as a Bible institute in Cleveland. During the early 1950s it acquired the name and campus of Cedarville College, formerly a Presbyterian school. For many years, Cedarville College staked out its identity as a fundamentalist, Baptist institution. Under the leadership of James T. Jeremiah, it was one of the flagship schools identified with the Regular Baptist movement.
In 1978, Paul Dixon became president of the college. He brought with him a vision to make Cedarville into a world-class university. Regular Baptists, however, had neither the numerical nor the economic strength to fulfill his dream. Dixon needed a larger constituency and broader appeal, and in pursuit of these goals he began to downplay some of the distinctives that Regular Baptists thought important. There was a softening of ecclesiastical separation as the platform featured a broader variety of evangelicals. There was an increasing openness and even friendliness toward the more current trends in popular culture. There was even a shifting of the criteria for faculty selection. By the early 1990s, Cedarville professors were putting themselves publicly on record for their (belated) support of the Equal Rights Amendment—legislation that was almost universally opposed by conservative Christians of all sorts.
As Cedarville broadened its appeal, it experienced growing tensions with Regular Baptists. These tensions came to a head when, at the end of Dixon’s tenure, Cedarville formally identified with the Southern Baptist state convention in Ohio. Under the new president, William Brown, the university refused to endorse the Statement of Purpose of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, a requirement for partnering institutions. For both these reasons, the GARBC terminated its partnership with Cedarville in 2006.
The divorce was ugly, at least on the Cedarville side. Since the GARBC national conference was held in Michigan that year, Cedarville supporters were transported by busloads to try to overwhelm the vote. At one point some threatened to rush the platform if a particular parliamentary ruling did not go their way. In the end, however, the association had the votes to remove Cedarville from partnership.
Shortly thereafter, scandal erupted on campus as a couple of the most conservative tenured professors were terminated suddenly. Alarmed constituents formed watchdog groups and began to spread word of theological aberrations. Most Cedarville constituents found these charges difficult to believe, but the university continued to show signs of movement away from its fundamentalist roots. In an attempt to reassure conservatives, in 2011 the university adopted white papers dealing with creation, with justification, and with divine omniscience.
The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.
In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.
While these events have been taking place at Cedarville, Faith Baptist Bible College has been facing a difficult decision of its own. The school long ago staked out a position that was traditionally dispensationalist, strongly Baptist, and conservative in its appropriation of contemporary popular culture. It has required its students to become members in churches that share these commitments.
Through the years, one of the congregations that allied itself with Faith was Saylorville Baptist Church. Dozens of students and several staff are members at Saylorville, and in many ways (for example, its commitment to evangelism) Saylorville models values that Faith shares. Over the years, however, Saylorville has adopted an increasingly contemporary ministry, and it has recently dropped the word Baptist from its name. As Saylorville has made these moves, Faith has felt considerable pressure to soften its commitment to its principles and to broaden its appeal.
Decades ago, one of the presidents of Faith Baptist Bible College (David Nettleton) argued that when Christians disagree, they must either limit their message or limit their fellowship. This past week, Faith’s board made the decision to stand by its message and allow its fellowship to shrink. Students and staff will no longer be permitted to join Saylorville Church.
This may represent the hardest decision that the administration and board at Faith has ever made. They are not angry with Saylorville. They love its pastor and its staff, and they believe that Saylorville is in some ways a good model. They are not denouncing the church, but they are separating from it at one level. They are making this move because, if they do not, their principles will be obscured. They are aware that the decision will be costly.
Cedarville and Faith represent opposite approaches to the application of principles in changing situations. Cedarville committed itself to wider influence and was willing to sacrifice principles in order to obtain it. Faith has committed itself to maintain its principles, and it is willing to accept narrower influence in order to uphold them. Both have responded to change, but they have responded in opposite directions.
Granted, sometimes Christians hold mistaken principles that they ought to revise. Simply to abandon principles in favor of increased influence, however, is a devil’s bargain. Once principles have been obscured, they become very difficult to clarify. Both Faith and Cedarville will face some unhappy constituents. Cedarville’s will be unhappy because their school’s position is not clear. Faith’s will be unhappy because their school’s is. The difference is this: no one is attracted to obscurity and uncertainty, but some may be attracted to a clearly stated position when it is consistently maintained.
Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Martin Luther (1483-1546), translated by Richard Massie (1800-1887)
Christ Jesus lay in death’s strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God’s right hand he stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah. Hallelujah!
It was a strange and dreadful strife
When life and death contended;
The victory remained with life,
The reign of death was ended;
Holy Scripture plainly saith
That death is swallowed up by death,
His sting is lost for ever. Hallelujah!
Here the true Paschal Lamb we see,
Whom God so freely gave us;
He died on the accursed tree—
So strong his love!—to save us.
See, his blood doth mark our door;
Faith points to it, death passes o’er,
And Satan cannot harm us. Hallelujah!
So let us keep the festival
Whereto the Lord invites us;
Christ is himself the Joy of all,
The Sun that warms and lights us.
By his grace he doth impart
Eternal sunshine to the heart;
The night of sin is ended. Hallelujah!
Then let us feast this joyful day
On Christ, the Bread of heaven;
The Word of grace hath purged away
The old and evil leaven.
Christ alone our souls will feed,
He is our meat and drink indeed;
Faith lives upon no other. Hallelujah!
Kevin T. Bauder Bio
This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, who serves as Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.
- 175 views
I appreciate the back and forth.
If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord’s church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it’s daunting.
We need to work together - home’s, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.
So in no particular order - here are the dangers….or maybe better……here are the needs, I’ve seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:
1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great “talkers.” Not even great “thinkers” or even “leaders” (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God….to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for “self,” it’s easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can’t imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.
2. Bible men. So it’s true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don’t believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I’ve been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I’m sure there are those out there who have - that’s great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even……and I can’t imagine I’m admitting their value……the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one’s commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God’s word with accuracy and care!
3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen “ministry” over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I’m sure there are still times when I’m tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don’t send them to seminary!
4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don’t have an “entitlement mentality” towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause “havoc” wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn’t have all the education they have is a “dip-stick” in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!
5. Loving men. So if you don’t like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That’s like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you’re going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc…..but if you don’t trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God’s people! You can’t imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven’t gotten over themselves yet……which brings us to the next category.
6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I’ve met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers……talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers……but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly…..there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a “know it all” type of a place. That’s because too many of our graduates come out with that “reputation.” I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it’s beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven’t been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!
7. Balanced men. I’m trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some “outside reading” (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - “Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor”) while I’m working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50’s and early 60’s). I try to spend some personal “one-on-one” time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don’t have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that’s OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!
Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need “concise men!” :)) - we could easily come up with more categories like “careful men,” “thinking men,” “courageous men,” etc….. Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Bro. Linscott, surely you understand that I wasn’t suggesting that a man never travel or spend time with other ministers.
The typical scenario is that for a man to attend seminary, he has to leave, not just his hometown, but his home church. He then promptly joins another church under another pastor, with whom he may have little prior knowledge and no relationship. For a time, he attends classes with strangers, and is taught by strangers. He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that’s great, but isn’t there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time?
We seem to value be a faithful member of one’s local church- until it’s time to train for ministry… and then the man leaves and joins whatever church the seminary approves of? That just doesn’t strike me as a best case scenario, or a particularly Biblical case either.
BTW, there’s no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don’t have it themselves…
Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren’t qualified to be in the ministry anyway.
My pastor is fairly handy in Greek and can suss out the Hebrew. But, I don’t know if he is apt to teach either language or if he had the time to do so.
[Susan R] SNIPBTW, there’s no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don’t have it themselves…
Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren’t qualified to be in the ministry anyway.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that’s great, but isn’t there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time?
Sure there is. But not every church is in a position to do so effectively. My home state of Maine, for example- there are very few Fundamental churches, and many of the ones that are there are struggling, by and large, to pay a full-time salary for one man, even. You can mentor guys in a situation like that, but there is little possibility of providing in-depth academic instruction for others. The small churches make it very easy to get an insulated perspective. I would also observe that seminary training among the pastors that are there is the exception. There are a few- Kevin has mentioned Ken Endean, for example, who is in the southern, more populated region of the state (which we would often refer to as “the other Maine” :) ), You get further north and inland and many of the men only have 2 or three year Bible Institute training. I was an exception when I ministered there with a four-year bachelors. In that scenario, I really see the value of sending men with an inclination for ministry away for further training. Some won’t come back, but some might.
What you are speaking of is an ideal, but I would say that in the end, it is best going to work out for philosophy-shaping than the academic end of things. I like what T Howard has brought into this with the online option- I too am taking classes, currently, from the same institution he is. It is a good way to keep training while remaining in your local church and so on. I would also observe that if one does leave hometown and home church, one should make sure he plants roots in the church he will be in as he trains. When my wife and I did go to Faith as newlyweds, we went down two months early in order to find a church before all the other students came, so that we could know the people and find a place to serve. That ended up being the church I belonged to the longest period in my life (over 8 years between college for my wife and I, plus time as a salaried associate pastor after graduation). So, it’s what you make of it.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
There are some churches that are trying to combine the best of both worlds. Sojourn Community Church in Louisville is partnering with The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for its Pastors School.
-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)
Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA
Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University
[Joel Tetreau]I appreciate the back and forth.
If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord’s church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it’s daunting.
We need to work together - home’s, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.
So in no particular order - here are the dangers….or maybe better……here are the needs, I’ve seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:
1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great “talkers.” Not even great “thinkers” or even “leaders” (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God….to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for “self,” it’s easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can’t imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.
2. Bible men. So it’s true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don’t believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I’ve been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I’m sure there are those out there who have - that’s great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even……and I can’t imagine I’m admitting their value……the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one’s commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God’s word with accuracy and care!
3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen “ministry” over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I’m sure there are still times when I’m tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don’t send them to seminary!
4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don’t have an “entitlement mentality” towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause “havoc” wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn’t have all the education they have is a “dip-stick” in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!
5. Loving men. So if you don’t like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That’s like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you’re going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc…..but if you don’t trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God’s people! You can’t imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven’t gotten over themselves yet……which brings us to the next category.
6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I’ve met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers……talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers……but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly…..there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a “know it all” type of a place. That’s because too many of our graduates come out with that “reputation.” I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it’s beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven’t been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!
7. Balanced men. I’m trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some “outside reading” (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - “Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor”) while I’m working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50’s and early 60’s). I try to spend some personal “one-on-one” time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don’t have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that’s OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!
Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need “concise men!” :)) - we could easily come up with more categories like “careful men,” “thinking men,” “courageous men,” etc….. Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Well said, Joel. And thanks…I now have my Father’s Day message for this year :).
Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts.
Mark Mincy
Here you go. As my Grandpa used to say “there’s nothing holding you back but your speed.” Look for more opportunities like this. Autodidacticism needs to be a big part of what pastors look for in their own education.
Here’s a resource from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary to help men grow in their understanding of God’s Word:
I attended a presentation on this program a few years ago which has some interesting local church opportunity. http://antiochschool.edu/
Yes, many of my opinions/suggestions are based on an ideal situation. Our Christian walk is often guided by the pursuance of an ‘ideal’, so I’m OK with that.
2 Tim. 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
That’s the ideal. No excuses, no “It’s too difficult” or “That’s not practical”. The intended pattern here is fairly clear.
The nature of instruction, as many seem to view it, is that learning is based primarily on the conveyance of information. However, mastery is accomplished by guided practice and demonstration of skills, not by rote memorization.
For instance, I have an eidetic memory- I can walk out of the grocery store and sing word-for-word whatever song was playing, even if I have never heard it before. If only Name that Tune was still on tv…. I can also ‘see’ pages that I have studied, and memorize by picturing the page in my mind and essentially ‘reading’ it. I can pass any test you care to put in front of me after about 15 minutes of study. Big whoop-de-doo, because while it’s a fun party trick, it doesn’t make me (gender notwithstanding) qualified for ministry.
[T Howard] Most seminaries require a pastor’s recommendation for admission. If unqualified men are entering / leaving the seminary, it is ultimately a failure of the sending church / pastor to properly test, train, and affirm that the man meets the character qualifications of 1 Tim 3 / Titus 1.
My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?
Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That’s why mentoring is not just important, it is essential.
As for the topic- we may be on a rabbit trail (my apologies to the OP) but I think the underlying issue here is that the seminary is supposed to be a practical solution for the need to effectively teach and train ministers, which is Scripturally a function of the local church. But when seminaries leave that authority structure, all kinds of mischief seems to follow.
While Cedarville isn’t billed as a seminary per se, it does grant ministry degrees, and the problems that I have been grousing about cannot be addressed properly at such a large institution. Where the school stands doctrinally doesn’t tell me anything about where their graduates stand on doctrine or in conduct.
These seemingly disparate ideas (the premise of the OP and my comments/questions) are very much connected in my mind.
[Susan R] My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That’s why mentoring is not just important, it is essential.
Susan,
I sympathize with the majority of what you have to say in this thread, but I think you are minimizing the process a little too much here. No seminary I know of sends guys out stamped for ministry. They issue a diploma - that’s it. It says they have learned certain material to a certain level of mastery. With or without a seminary diploma, it is still the churches who call ordination counsels. It is the churches who ordain ministers. The seminary is essentially a para-church organization that helps men prepare to stand before their churches. The churches are responsible to verify men are “qualified to minister as per scriptural guidelines and not just completed courses and a passing GPA.” I don’t think that attending seminary has to preclude the mentoring relationship between a pastor and a student, even if the student has relocated to a new church for the duration of seminary.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?
Susan,
I am not sure how a church taking direct responsibility for the academics changes what you seemed to be concerned about. Churches should and do bear the responsibility for gaging spiritual qualifications (ordination, for example), though charlatans can just as easily come out of a local church setting as they can the college/seminary model. Any church who is looking for a qualified man to serve in a pastoral capacity should do more than consult the degree-granting institution- anyone who doesn’t bears the responsibility of their own folly. Anyone can go out and start their own church, regardless of credentials, and there isn’t much that can be done about that in our settings, other than “mark and avoid.”
Regarding ordination, commissioning, and so on- we had a recent example here in Minnesota where a Central MDiv was being sent out of a rural MBA church to oversee a church plant. That church ultimately determined that the seminary grad was not immediately fit for the task, and did not commission him. The man complied with the church, by the way.
I say that to observe that churches should be and are involved, even in the seminary model. It can and does work.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Susan,
Let me just echo what Chip and Greg said in that I believe you are confusing getting a diploma with local church ordination. As I said before, Southeastern Seminary trained me and gave me a diploma to say I completed the required education that most churches are looking for, but they had nothing to do with approving me to go into the ministry. That was done by my pastor and my local church who examined me and ordained me for the ministry.
I know there are mainline denominational models that ordination follows completing your education and the two are linked, but I have never seen that anywhere in Baptist life, whether, independent, Southern, or any conservative non-Baptist churches.
If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light …
Not to raise something I raised before, but well, to raise something I raised before, how do you know this? Do you have seminary experience in a variety of seminaries? Do you have a study? Do you have some evidence for this? If so, then tell us what it is. If not, then why say it?
You may be right. But I don’t know. But we need more than this to substantiate it, don’t we? I don’t think good points are well-served by unsupportable arguments,.
I have limited experience from within seminaries, since being female, I have no reason to actually attend one. I did graduate from Massillon Baptist College in 1989, and that is the limit of my firsthand sitting-in-the-classroom experience within a seminary/college situation.
My experience lies at the local church level, having been involved in leadership type positions in several churches since 1987, either because my husband was serving in leadership, or I myself was acting as a teacher, leading ladies’ discipleship programs, or as a SS Superintendent.
You could say that I haven’t seen as much of the training process itself as I have the fruit of it. Therefore I use the word ‘typical’ so that when referring to ‘seminaries’, I (attempt to) convey that I mean ‘seminaries without distinction’, not ‘seminaries without exception’.
I fully understand that there is a big difference between training someone for ministry in general and ordaining someone for a specific position. I just wonder how many churches understand the difference.
I hope you all understand that, while some of my comments sound like statements, they are more like questions and ponderings as to why there is so often a disconnect between the training process and the approval of ministers. I think this is a problem that feeds into many current church/college conflicts.
I feel the need to express my appreciation for all of the kind and thoughtful responses I have received in this thread. I haven’t been dismissed or patronized. That has been a tremendous source of blessing and encouragement to me, and I want ya’ll to know that I am grateful to be part of a conversation with so many good and gracious gentlemen.
Discussion