Now, About Those Differences, Part Twelve

NickOfTimeRead Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, and Part 11.

Together (Only?) for the Gospel

The differences between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals include considerable disparity in their attitudes toward miraculous gifts. Fundamentalists are almost universally and vigorously cessationists. Conversely, many conservative evangelicals are continuationists, and those who are not can still function comfortably with the ones who are. From a fundamentalist perspective, this difference is rather a significant one.

Nevertheless, fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals do hold much in common. What they hold in common is properly designated as koinonia or fellowship. It would be hypocritical to pretend that this fellowship does not exist, just as it would be hypocritical to pretend to enjoy fellowship where none existed.

Most fundamentally (the word is deliberate), both groups are united in their affirmation and exaltation of the gospel. None of the differences that we have examined to this point results in a denial of the gospel. Both fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals believe the gospel, preach the gospel, and defend the gospel.

This mutuality in the gospel leads to a question. Since conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists are united in their allegiance to the gospel, should they not be able to cooperate at the level of the gospel? To put it positively, should fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals get together for the gospel?

Frankly, I am still thinking through an answer to that question. It is not really an urgent question, though, for two reasons. On the one hand, fundamentalists do not seem to be sponsoring any enterprises that center on the gospel alone. On the other hand, conservative evangelicals (who do sponsor such enterprises) do not seem to wish for fundamentalist involvement. I know of no recognizable fundamentalist leader who has been invited to speak at T4G or The Gospel Coalition.

Consequently, I have the luxury of making a few guesses and testing a few speculations. The following paragraphs are a tentative effort to think through the problem. Should fundamentalists join conservative evangelicals in projects such as T4G and The Gospel Coalition?

A moment ago, I noted that fundamentalists are not sponsoring any endeavors that center upon the gospel alone. Why is that? The answer cannot be that fundamentalists have no concern for the gospel. Every fundamentalist I know—even the most aberrant ones—care deeply about the gospel. In fact, fundamentalists have championed the preaching and proclamation of the gospel. Their most distinctive practice (ecclesiastical separation) is an effort to maintain the purity of the gospel.

So why don’t fundamentalists have an equivalent to T4G or The Gospel Coalition? I think that it is because fundamentalists realize something, although it is so basic that they might even have trouble explaining it. It is this: while our joint profession of the gospel constitutes the most basic form of Christian fellowship, our fellowship is rarely about the gospel alone. Nor should it be.

The gospel is the atmosphere of Christianity. It is the very air that we breathe. It is assumed in and by everything that is genuinely Christian.

Viewed from this perspective, it makes as much sense to have a rally in favor of the gospel as it does to have a rally in favor of air. Do we value air? Are we committed to its centrality for breathing? Of course! Under normal circumstances, however, someone who wanted to focus simply on air would leave us all nonplussed. The same would be true of a Christian who wanted to focus just on the gospel.

Of course, not every circumstance is a normal circumstance. We actually do focus on air under two circumstances. We become deeply concerned when we see someone who needs air. We also become concerned when the air is threatened by harmful pollutants.

Our focus on the gospel is analogous. We concentrate on the gospel when we see someone who needs it (i.e., evangelism). We also concentrate on the gospel when we see someone who threatens it (i.e., polemics). These are the two circumstances under which Christians might band together for the gospel: to propagate it through evangelism, or to defend it polemically. Under neither of these circumstances are they simply together for the gospel.

The task of evangelism does not terminate in the proclamation and acceptance of the gospel. Biblical evangelism includes baptizing. It includes teaching disciples to observe all the things that Jesus has taught.

If baptism and discipleship are part of biblical evangelism, then organizing for the gospel simpliciter is really a truncation of Christian responsibility. To come together for the gospel actually requires us to come together for more than the gospel alone.

The organizers of T4G and The Gospel Coalition seem to realize this. When they get together for the gospel, they actually feature a pretty narrow slice of gospel-believing theology. In fact, whole ranges of conservative evangelicalism have been excluded.

If they simply wanted to get together for the gospel, we might expect to see an outspoken non-Calvinist or two in the lineup. We might expect to see someone who expressed questions about Lordship Salvation. We might expect to see an avowed (i.e., non-leaky) dispensationalist. We might expect to see someone whose theology was not explicitly Reformed.

After all, organizations like T4G and The Gospel Coalition feature continuationists. Their leaders are willing to work with people like Mark Driscoll and Rick Warren. Is it really believable that they cannot find a place for Christian statesmen like Charles Ryrie or John C. Whitcomb?

The leaders of T4G and The Gospel Coalition certainly make choices about acceptable boundaries. Those choices are reflected in the names that are featured on the platform. That is not wrong. In fact, recognizing boundaries is important. In view of the choices that these leaders make, however, it seems a bit facile to think that their fellowship in these meetings is determined by nothing but the gospel.

Lovers of the gospel may band together for evangelism. They may also band together to defend the gospel. The gospel requires defense when it is attacked and subverted by apostate teachers.

The gospel is not defended merely by restating it. It is not defended merely by exploring it. It is not even defended merely by replying to the arguments of those who attack the gospel. Each of these things is necessary, but even together they are inadequate as a defense for the gospel.

The defense of the gospel requires that apostate teachers be exposed and labeled. It requires that Christian recognition be withheld from them. It requires that the Lord’s people be warned against them, much as Paul did in Galatians 1:6-9 or John did in his second epistle.

In other words, being together for the gospel implies being separated unto the gospel. It implies a radical break with those who deny the gospel. Furthermore, I think it involves a refusal to follow the leadership of Christians who betray the gospel by making common cause with apostates.

This is not the time or place to develop these ideas. What I will note here is that these considerations introduce the fourth, and (in my opinion) most serious difference between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals. The bone of contention between us is over the necessity of absolute ecclesiastical separation from gospel deniers.

The gospel is surely the most important thing in the world. It is the most important thing in Christianity. What is of utmost importance in the Christian faith is expressed in, assumed with, or implied by the gospel.

If we are Christians, then we live and move and have our being in the gospel. Precisely because of its sweeping importance, however, it comes into focus only when it needs to be proclaimed or when it needs to be defended. Both of these activities, however, turn out to entail more than just the recognition of the gospel message.

If my musings come anywhere close to the truth, then evidently we are never simply together for the gospel. For Christians, other factors will necessarily be at work in decisions about fellowship and cooperation. Some of these factors appear to be recognized in practice by the planners of T4G and The Gospel Coalition.

So what about fellowship and cooperation between fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals? I suggest the following considerations.

First, when conservative evangelicals get together for the gospel, they appear to use more than simply the gospel as their basis of fellowship. Perhaps they are wrong to do so, but I am inclined to think that they are right. Whether it is proclaimed or defended, the gospel points beyond itself.

Second, if conservative evangelicals are right to base their cooperation upon more than the gospel, then it becomes difficult to criticize fundamentalists for doing the same thing. The factors that fundamentalists consider are sometimes different than the factors that conservative evangelicals consider. We can weigh each factor for its merits. What we cannot do, however, is to suggest that fundamentalists must strip aside everything except the gospel as a basis of cooperation—unless we are willing to demand that conservative evangelicals do this as well.

Third, if both fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals are weighing factors that go beyond the gospel, then an additional possibility opens up. That is the possibility that the two groups are not necessarily obligated to cooperate for the sake of the gospel. They are not obligated to cooperate in its proclamation and they are not obligated to cooperate in its defense. They will need to determine the extent of their cooperation, not simply on the basis of their mutual allegiance to the gospel, but also on the basis of the other factors that they are weighing.

Fourth, if these two groups choose not to cooperate, then their non-cooperation must not be construed as opposition. Choosing to work separately is not the same as antagonism. It is possible to love one another, be grateful for one another, pray for one another, and wish one another success without necessarily working together. Possibly (remember, I am simply testing the idea) such fraternal non-cooperation might be the best course for fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals at more than one level.

Up-Hill
Christina Rossetti (1830-1894)

Does the road wind up-hill all the way?
Yes, to the very end.
Will the day’s journey take the whole long day?
From morn to night, my friend.

But is there for the night a resting-place?
A roof for when the slow dark hours begin.
May not the darkness hide it from my face?
You cannot miss that inn.

Shall I meet other wayfarers at night?
Those who have gone before.
Then must I knock, or call when just in sight?
They will not keep you standing at that door.

Shall I find comfort, travel-sore and weak?
Of labour you shall find the sum.
Will there be beds for me and all who seek?
Yea, beds for all who come.


Dr. Kevin T. Bauder, president of Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

Discussion

Here’s a question for discussion:

The main reason for the Son coming to earth was to A) reveal the Father; B) glorify the Father; C) save sinners.

No fair answering with cop outs!! - like, “they are the same” or “they aren’t exclusive.” We all know that already! Make a choice and rank them in order. That will reveal your theology. My answer is at the bottom.

Now, after answering that question, ask yourself, which answer dominates your preaching, or your church’s preaching?

Aaron, I told you my post wasn’t about the altar call system! Its the Trinity, bro. The altar call was just a useful tool to show that Fundamentalist lambaste themselves about their methods and their ineffectiveness, but do so in part becasue it protects them from examining their Theology. That’s my challenge to Kevin Bauder. Deal with the theology, not the effects of the theology.

OK. I’ve been beat up by two guys on Romans 10:13. Sheesh. Its genuine there. Its a promise. Its awesome!

But you guys are beating me with a red herring. The human call in Rom. 10:13 has as much to do with the present day invitation system as air does with the gospel (oops, that one has been used). OK. As much as apples do with oranges.

The call in Romans 10:13 is a fairly rare word for a calling on the Lord in the NT, but could be used in the OT (LXX) for the call of a person turning to God in worship. Isn’t that beautiful! So Psalm 50:15 “call on Me in the day of trouble, and I will rescue you”). I used to think this call was legal (like calling a defense attorney) but I was wrong. Its used in 2 Tim. 2:22 - “Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.” It the call of a person turning to God in worship. That’ll preach, no?!

The invitation system is all about what to do to get saved, not worship. It leaves man in the center, just as the unregenerate like it.

Yes, Paul, the human call of Rom. 10:13 and Acts 2 and Joel 2 will be there in the tribulation too! MacArthur would preach it if it were his text. Just to get things riled up a bit.

My answer: B) to glorify the Father - John 17:1-5. Then A, and then C.

[Joseph Leavell] The parallel passage of Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” indicates that they had “called” on His name, “Lord, Lord.” Just saying the words doesn’t save you. “The prayer” is not a magic formula.
It indicates they “called” him Lord with their lips but never believed. Which is why he asks the question. And it is true, just saying words saves no one. The point remains that this is about those who do everything but believe.

Alex, my post was in response to Don who said,
Actually, the Scriptures are not in conflict. In Mt 7.22-23, Jesus doesn’t say these whom he never knew had EVER called on him. They acted in his name, but they did not call on it.
My response was basically, yes…they did call on Him. In one passage they were using Jesus’ name thinking their works would save them, the other they were thinking that just naming Jesus’ their Lord was enough to save them - and He calls them on it and says they had never laid their foundation on Christ (the Rock).

Don said,
We see the claim that someone who has called on Christ to be his saviour is still a natural man. What an attitude.
Both you and I just demonstrated from Scripture how it is possible to “call on Christ to be his savior” and still be a natural man through unbelief which as Jesus reflects in Luke, never resulted in an active faith. My question is, how is this an unBiblical “attitude?”

[Joseph Leavell] Alex, my post was in response to Don who said,
Actually, the Scriptures are not in conflict. In Mt 7.22-23, Jesus doesn’t say these whom he never knew had EVER called on him. They acted in his name, but they did not call on it.
My response was basically, yes…they did call on Him. In one passage they were using Jesus’ name thinking their works would save them, the other they were thinking that just naming Jesus’ their Lord was enough to save them - and He calls them on it and says they had never laid their foundation on Christ (the Rock).

Don said,
We see the claim that someone who has called on Christ to be his saviour is still a natural man. What an attitude.
Both you and I just demonstrated from Scripture how it is possible to “call on Christ to be his savior” and still be a natural man through unbelief which as Jesus reflects in Luke, never resulted in an active faith. My question is, how is this an unBiblical “attitude?”
I do realize it was Don to whom you were responding. But I do believe you are mistaken if you believe calling Jesus, “Lord, Lord” (kurie/kurios) is equivalent to believing on him as Savior. This appears to be how you have interpreted their calling him, Lord, Lord.

They indeed call him Lord, Lord, but from the text it is not because of or for conversion but as a flattering appeal to Christ that not only with their works but with their lips even, they attempt to point to their outward acquiescence without ever having believed. Now, if you are pointing to the possibility that a person can believe on Christ and never really believe or be born again, I do not accept such contradictory statements. But I do not know. I see where you stated that they may have believed that “just naming” the name of Jesus as Lord was enough but then you go on to equate it to calling on Christ as Savior, I believe these two are quite removed from one another.

In any event, the reference to their calling Jesus, Lord, Lord was not as an indication they are calling on him as Savior because merely calling or referring to Christ as Lord simply is not treated as synonymous to one believing on Christ as Savior in any biblical text that I can recall. There is no possibility that a man can believe on Christ or call on Christ as Savior (here we assume their belief or call is in response to the gospel and not a false gospel which then still would not be a case of one either believing on Christ or calling on Christ) and not be born again. It is automatic. Either they have believed or have not.

And here the case of the identical texts is pointing to those who by their works, their outward acquiescence from their lip service to their deeds, attempt to appeal to Christ that by these and not their faith they are his and he says, “I never knew you”.

[quote Aaron] I’m in agreement with Kevin about the gospel here. He is not in any way reducing its importance. Rather, he is mirroring the New Testament, which does not simply repeat the gospel over and over. Granted, the NT does not only repeat the gospel over and over. But it does do just that quite a bit, does it not? Show me a Christian-living imperative that is not somehow linked by the author to a gospel indicative. We tend to jump to the imperatives, but devoid of the proper foundation of the indicatives. This is what Paul is denouncing in Colossians 2. Many preachers (F and CE perhaps) fail to properly “mirror the New Testament” in adequately repeating the gospel message over and over as both the means and the motivation for Christian living. We don’t need more “try harder, be better” virtue preaching. We do need to come to a deeper and clearer understanding of the power of gospel and how it motivates and enables me to obey. We forget the gospel. We disbelieve the gospel. We need to be regularly reminded of and exhorted to hold to and live in the gospel every day.

[quote Aaron] Our transformation into the likeness of Christ is all part of the gospel purpose as is the redemption of the creation (Rom. 8). But we usually use “gospel” to describe the core message Paul refers to in Rom.1:16.So, in Romans 1:16, do you take “salvation” to refer only to justification (the one-time, past occurrence) and not to the other components of salvation, namely progressive sanctification and ultimate glorification? Is the message of Christ crucified, buried and risen merely “the power of God unto” my justification? Is not that same gospel truth the power of God unto my daily sanctification? If so, then I see the dichotomy of the “core message” vs. “the implications” as a false one.

[quote Aaron] we usually use “gospel” to describe the core message… (emph. added)This is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier. The problem in the debate is partly in the definition of terms. Each party assumes they’re talking about the same thing and they’re not.Because many Fundamental preachers think of the “gospel” and “salvation” as only something that happened in my past, something that only needs to be preached to unbelievers, they conclude that we mostly need to “move on” from the gospel to other things. Call them implications, applications, whatever; the problem lies in the moving on. We should never get past or over the gospel. It is our message. And furthermore, that gospel is not merely a story or a series of facts. The message of the gospel is a person. That’s why Paul says “HIM we preach” (Col. 1:28) and “I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor. 2:2). If we can move on from the Person and Work of Christ to other things, I don’t know what they would be and still be called CHRISTian.

I’ll have to try to catch up w/some of the others later
[J Leavell]
[Kevin Bauder] The task of evangelism does not terminate in the proclamation and acceptance of the gospel. Biblical evangelism includes baptizing. It includes teaching disciples to observe all the things that Jesus has taught.
This is the whole point of our preaching! Ephesians says that pastors are to edify the body until we come to the full stature of Christ. This point was made by Bauder but it was more a side note of concession than the central theme of our teaching. T
I’m a bit unclear on what you’re saying, Joe. Is the gospel “the whole point” or are the things Kevin said we need to pursue in addition to the gospel “the whole point”? The part you quoted there is not the gospel but part of where it points.

Paul Scharf: you made the observation that Rom.10:13 is not “about” calling but about who may call. This is true enough, but try reading it without the “call.” My point is that “whoever shall call …shall be saved” is still there and the fact that the larger argument has to do with including both Jew and Gentile does not make it go away.

If we only had this verse, we would not know that it’s not the calling itself that saves. We learn this from other passages.

My contention is that everything people say or write must be understood in a context and this is as true of revivalist style preachers as it is of anything else, including Scripture. So if we are going to fault alter-calling preachers for their view of the gospel, we need to establish what they mean when they invite sinners to come and be saved. If we go to the trouble, we will find that with few exceptions, what they clearly do not mean is that coming = saving, ergo I save myself by coming. Even Finney wouldn’t have gone that far.

Speaking of—he’s a good case in point. We know Finney was off on the gospel because of what he wrote and taught as theological context for his revivalistic innovations. Quite simply, he got the nature of sin and fall wrong and it’s hard to get the solution right if you haven’t grasped the problem.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

The endless argument pro and anti Calvinism that has sprung up is typical. It involves a lot of sophistry, and it is definitely a red herring because it completely diverges away from Bauder’s article.

But it does illustrate the enchantment many have with the Together for Calvin crowd. Calvinism is the operative ground for fellowship in these minds, not the fundamentals. And not really ‘the gospel’, unless you define Calvinism as the gospel (as some are doing).

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I’m sure I’ll still miss a few but, will chip away.
[Eric R] Granted, the NT does not only repeat the gospel over and over. But it does do just that quite a bit, does it not?
Absolutely.
[Eric R] Show me a Christian-living imperative that is not somehow linked by the author to a gospel indicative. We tend to jump to the imperatives, but devoid of the proper foundation of the indicatives
I’m not sure who “we” here is, but I’m not for that. If we preach and teach through epistles sequentially, we follow the argument of the epistle which always relates in some way to the gospel.

I don’t think that’s in dispute here.
Fundamental preachers think of the “gospel” and “salvation” as only something that happened in my past, something that only needs to be preached to unbelievers, they conclude that we mostly need to “move on” from the gospel to other things. Call them implications, applications, whatever; the problem lies in the moving on. We should never get past or over the gospel.
“Move on” as in “abandon”? Certainly not. “Move on,” as in preach the whole counsel of God? We better be sure we do! Let’s be clear if we can. “Let him who stole steal no longer” is not the gospel. So if we’re going to preach that, it will be because we have moved on. Of course, it is addressed to people who have believed the gospel and the reason for the imperative is the gospel, but the instruction is distinct from the gospel.

Now about “salvation” being something that happened in the past. There are two errors to avoid here. One is the view that tends to see everything as ongoing and nothing as completed. The other is to see everything as completed and nothing yet to come. Nobody really does either of these per se, but it happens as a matter of emphasis. Paul speaks to believers often as those have been saved (e.g., Eph. 2:8) Something done. But also he speaks of future adoption and redemption. And he speaks of salvation as something we work out with fear and trembling (Php 2.12). Peter speaks of it as something ready to be revealed on the last day. So there is a past, present and future aspect.

So it’s not either-or; it’s both-and. Salvation is something that is completed at the moment of faith in one sense, and ongoing for our lifetimes in another sense.

In general, I think we’re all better served by not overreacting to the errors of emphasis and terminology that are out there. As much error comes from overreaction as from the problems themselves.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

And here the case of the identical texts is pointing to those who by their works, their outward acquiescence from their lip service to their deeds, attempt to appeal to Christ that by these and not their faith they are his and he says, “I never knew you”.
I see where you stated that they may have believed that “just naming” the name of Jesus as Lord was enough but then you go on to equate it to calling on Christ as Savior, I believe these two are quite removed from one another.
I guess I don’t understand the difference then. You say this passage isn’t talking about salvation but then say that the people here are appealing to “Christ…by these and not their faith they are his.” So, they’re claiming to be saved, and Jesus is saying they’re not, they have lives built upon the sand and not the Rock. How is this not a salvation passage then if Jesus is saying that just saying the words “Lord, Lord” doesn’t save you? But then you get to Romans 10 and it says “whoever confesses Jesus Christ is Lord shall be saved.” It says a few verses earlier “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

I’m not making a case for Lordship salvation here - I’m just saying that I don’t get saying that these passages aren’t talking about salvation because it doesn’t refer to Jesus as “Savior” but it does refer to Him as “Lord” when a primary passage for salvation in Romans 10 calls Him “Lord” and not “Savior.” Just a little confused how they are “removed” from one another and how they cannot be equated if they ARE equated in Romans 10…
[Alex] Now, if you are pointing to the possibility that a person can believe on Christ and never really believe or be born again, I do not accept such contradictory statements.
Yeah, I agree. I’ve never met anyone including Calvinists who would disagree with you as long as the belief on Christ was not based on a false Gospel. Don seemed to be indicating that some people believe that you can genuinely accept Christ as Savior and still not be saved because you’re not elect. That’s a misrepresentation of Calvinism if that’s what he’s saying. I hope I’m wrong and that he meant something else, but that’s what I took from it anyway.

Don seemed to be indicating that some people believe that you can genuinely accept Christ as Savior and still not be saved because you’re not elect. That’s a misrepresentation of Calvinism if that’s what he’s saying. I hope I’m wrong and that he meant something else, but that’s what I took from it anyway.
He was reacting to statements by Ted that seemed to suggest a person could call on the name of the Lord and not be saved… I guess because a preacher said “Walk the aisle and pray and prayer to be saved.” But there’s no way to make Rom. 10:13 fit a scenario where a person truly believes and calls and is still unregenerate afterwards.

[quoteTed] The human call in Rom. 10:13 has as much to do with the present day invitation system as air does with the gospel (oops, that one has been used). OK. As much as apples do with oranges.



The invitation system is all about what to do to get saved, not worship. It leaves man in the center, just as the unregenerate like it.I guess I’m not sure what exactly this “invitation system” is you’re talking about. Having grown up hearing a whole lot of invitations, I cannot recall a single one of them in which the event was about teaching people that aisle walking and prayer praying is how people save themselves.

Oddly, these churches (and other types of meetings) were the very places where I learned that there is nothing anyone can do to save himself and he must cast himself on the mercy of God alone. It’s true that there was occasionally some murkiness about exactly how necessary the prayer was (I’m still not sure that’s entirely clear… can a person really believe and repent without communicating something to God about that?). But there was never, ever, any teaching to the effect that it’s my prayer that has the power to save or my walking an aisle that merits my forgiveness.

So whatever the “invitation system” is you’re referring to, it must be one I’ve never seen. Perhaps it dates back more to the time of Finney or maybe it’s more common in Nazarene or Free Will Baptist churches?

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] Paul Scharf: you made the observation that Rom.10:13 is not “about” calling but about who may call. This is true enough, but try reading it without the “call.” My point is that “whoever shall call …shall be saved” is still there and the fact that the larger argument has to do with including both Jew and Gentile does not make it go away.

If we only had this verse, we would not know that it’s not the calling itself that saves. We learn this from other passages.
Aaron,

I respectully disagree. We can know what Paul is talking about from the context and from the fact that he is quoting Joel 2:32.

Otherwise we are just loading “call” with a random meaning from our fundamentalist culture and experience. I do not believe that an “altar call” or a “sinner’s prayer” are found in Rom. 10:1-13.

Paul, in the larger context of Rom. 9-11, is dealing with the past, present and future of Israelite salvation. His use of OT quotations here, then, is highly siginificant to the meaning of what he is talking about. We need to unpack the meaning of those quotations in their OT contexts to know what Paul is stating in Rom. 10. He is not just using some kind of a play on words.

Church Ministries Representative, serving in the Midwest, for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

I do not believe that an “altar call” or a “sinner’s prayer” are found in Rom. 10:1-13.
So are you asserting that Rom.10.13 has nothing to say to sinners at all? Surely we’re agreed that there is a calling and a saving there. Who is being saved? Someone already saved?

(For for clarity, I’m not saying there’s an altar call there. I’m not a proponent of altar calls.)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Don] The endless argument pro and anti Calvinism that has sprung up is typical. It involves a lot of sophistry, and it is definitely a red herring because it completely diverges away from Bauder’s article.
I agree…but…I believe it was you brought it up in the first place, wasn’t it?
[Don] Calvinism is the operative ground for fellowship in these minds, not the fundamentals. And not really ‘the gospel’, unless you define Calvinism as the gospel (as some are doing).
So…I assume you didn’t like the Spurgeon quote as Spurgeon fits that category?

[quote Don Johnson] But it does illustrate the enchantment many have with the Together for Calvin crowd. Calvinism is the operative ground for fellowship in these minds, not the fundamentals.Whether or not one agrees with Calvinism (by which I assume you refer specifically to Calvin’s understanding of hamartiology and soteriology), the denouncement of their gathering around those doctrines is revealing. One group says: “We think these things are important: man’s sin problem and God’s glorious solution to it.” Another group says: “We think these things are important. We call them ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fundamentals] The Fundamentals ” - they are outlined in a series of 90 articles, precious few of which are about Justification by Faith or Salvation by Grace. Most are about Higher Criticism, Creation vs. Evolution, Modern Philosophy, Science and Christian Faith, Romanism, Sunday School, etc.” I encourage anyone to take a look at the table of contents and see if it strikes you as a list of the most important things, the things that are truly fundamental to the faith.

Maybe the emphasis of our movement has been a little off since it’s birth and we’re just seeing the symptoms of that now.

[Don Johnson] The endless argument pro and anti Calvinism that has sprung up is typical. It involves a lot of sophistry, and it is definitely a red herring because it completely diverges away from Bauder’s article.

But it does illustrate the enchantment many have with the Together for Calvin crowd. Calvinism is the operative ground for fellowship in these minds, not the fundamentals. And not really ‘the gospel’, unless you define Calvinism as the gospel (as some are doing).
C’mon Don. If Calvinism were the “operative ground for fellowship” among some of us in this post, we wouldn’t be dispensational, or pre-trib.

Hard Sunday?